SurePath Love it or hate it?

[Horton]

I keep hearing a few comments that are anti- SurePath. How does everyone really feel?

[LeonL]

I really can't see any downside. Are scores trending downward since SurePath has been instituted?

[Horton]

I think there are 2 groups who dislike SurePath. 

The first group are drivers who feel like it is big brother looking over their shoulders making sure they are in bounds. In the days of boat path video, there were hundreds of hours of footage to be reviewed and it was generally not real time so drivers had a lot of latitude to drive the way they wanted to drive until there was a record on the line.

The second group is those without a decent internet signal at the lake. Clearly, if the phone in the boat and/or the phone at the base station does not have a reliable connection then the system is going to fail. Those who also depend on the local public RTK network instead of a local base may have poor reliability. 

I do not count the guys who complain about the time needed to move a system from one boat to another because that is ridiculous. It is a pylon mount, a phone, the black box, and a few cables. How hard can it be? 

[MDB1056]

One can't argue against the basis which is to keep as straight a path as possible as that is fundamental to the sport. To the extent that is able to aid that is clearly a positive. If the tolerances for variance are too tight to be realistic that's for the drivers and the regulating organizations to adjust. Signal and set up issues and the likes are housekeeping.        

[Horton]

@LeonL I do not know that anyone has done a real analysis. Anecdotally there seem to be a lot fewer events with suspicious scores. Pro men's scores appear to be up at the podium level.

[dave2ball]

I believe sure path gives everyone  a far ride. It forces the driver to limit the side to side slide.  I believe it woke up many driver who thought they were good may need some more wheel time.  
although  a driver still has to drive to  the skiers rhythm  not the and not sure path numbers. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by dave2ball

[pcmcon729]

I don't own a SurePath system, and I likely will not purchace one. I think that it will be obsolete within a few years once PathGuidance takes it's place 😉 .  The technology already exists. 

I do have the opportunity to use it at tournaments, and I love it. I think it makes a positive contribution to the sport. I'm a 30 year driver of tournaments, and it pointed out to me that my approach into the 55's could be improved. I welcomed that feedback and started focusing specifically on that detail to become a better driver.  My point, nobody should be intimidated by it if you want to do your part to become the best driver you can be.  To add to the conversation, I have seen and heard of novice skiers (-15/22) put way to much emphysis on on boatpaths +/-  8-10cm as a possible reason for missing a pass. If you're missing a path at that line length with 15 extra feet of rope, there are 20 other things for you to be focusing on to run the pass. 

[JackQ]

I have it and use it in practice, it has helped my driving and those who pull me.  For tournaments it removes: 1. I skied bad the driver sucks 2. So and so had a high score because the driver was weaving.   

It also has shown that a some what out of tolerance boat path is not necessarily a skier killer, and at longer line lengths is irrelevant.  I have run a number of passes with some -30s (sometimes more) at some or many of the buoys, on all but my hardest pass.  

[PatM]

I agree with @pcmcon729 who is one of the top drivers in the east.  I like the fact it is making me think about how to improve my driving.  I am now conscious of the fact I tend to be closer to the right entrance gate ball (still in the green for tolerance).  All else is good but here is an area I need to improve.

Edited July 5, 2023 by PatM

[Horton]

@pcmcon729 I am a huge fan of SurePath but I am dreading GPS steering. That is a whole different tangent.

I have seen it increase the quality of every driver who practices with. My driving has improved dramatically in the 3 years I have driven with it.

My real question is to those who dislike it. Show me a compelling argument against it.

[MDB1056]

There is no argument against it……………

[RAWSki]

The argument against it is that at a class C tournament it was used (because it was there) and some judges-skiers observed drivers within tolerance but outside what they believed acceptable for their skiing or level of quality.   This is my only complaint it created a hyper-critical measure for what is supposed to be a fun amateur event.

[MDB1056]

@RAWSki - that’s not an argument against the the product, rather an argument against it being used outside of where it’s designed for which is primarily high level tight tolerance competition. I believe most all would agree that if running a “fun amateur event” that SurePath is overkill 

[bkreis]

I love it!! we train with it almost every set. it still allows for drivers to "feel" different but keeps them in check...I'd imagine it'll eventually be integrated into our screens.

[pcmcon729]

@PatM Thanks for the kind words. @Horton , I agree with @MDB1056, there is no valid reason for not wanting SP, in my mind, other than the added expense for a sport that is already crazy money.  Also, I don't fear PathGuidance, as I believe that like Perfect Pass and ZO, there will be a margin of, "Give" +/- a few inches designed into it to simulate a good driver. At least, that should be integrated as a priority. 

[swaterkd]

I have sure path at my home site.  When every one comes to drive the first time they feel like its a driving test!  The second time they want the system and realize that it is making them a better driver.  I think the system is more important out of tournaments.  There is a setting for zone that teaches drivers how to "pick up the skier."

 

[RAWSki]

@MDB1056 I agree ----its a great tool and helpful to drivers to really fine tune their ability.  Its also a nice convenience (even at C events) because it makes scoring easier.  My point is people can get hung up on the numbers and loose sight of what is really important in a non record amateur tournament.  

[BraceMaker]

@RAWSki I think that argument is just a good one behind masking data when not needed. A mode to hide so insignificant figures.  Go/No-Go why criticize things that are in spec.

 

I still thing GPS steering is going to be a great thing for the sport on the whole.  It should really be GPS augmented steering not GPS autosteer.  Just have an inline actuator on the steering that corrects for positioning and a variable resistance setting on the helm.  Then you could have modes between helm essentially locked and the actuator largely controlling the boat and the helm being essentially free and the actuator just mildly fine tuning boat path.  Your high end class R events behind your top drivers leave it up to the driver and your pass being bulled by your 12 year old nephew sitting on a booster cushion lock out the helm and give him assist.  Only instead of your skier selecting a setting you validate the driver through sure path and give them helm control based on their abilities.

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

@BraceMaker I totally disagree with the idea of masking the data. When I am driving I look at the numbers after every pass to make the boat path is what I think it is. If think I am off at one ball or another I want the data to confirm what I thought happened. As an example, If the phone just told me that I am in tolerance or not, how would I ever know that I am straight but always off to one side by 10 -15cm? The driver has 25cm ( 9.84 inch ) of error in a class C. Do you really want a driver not if knowing that they are 9 inches off? The tools are there. I say use them.  

[Horton]

GPS Steering is an exciting prospect with one caveat.

When ZO was introduced there was a sudden situation where only skiers who trained behind new boats had access to it. Skiers who trained with older PP boats were at a loss. At short ropes skiing behind ZO was nothing like skiing behind PP.  Countless skiers quit the sport because they could not compete without buying a new boat with ZO. 

If USAWS and IWWF take a very cautious approach to the transition between hand steering and GPS steering it will very likely move the sport forward. If we wake up one day and find that we have to all buy new boats to get the same pull as in tournaments it might be the last of many nails in the coffin for the sport. 

The other possible outcome is that if the GPS steering is not very different than average driving then my worries are misplaced. Maybe it will only impact scores for the very elite. At this point it is all speculation.  

[BraceMaker]

Sure use them but if what he stated is correct "and some judges-skiers observed drivers within tolerance but outside what they believed acceptable for their skiing or level of quality" maybe you need to mask it at a certain level.  Like don't tell your skier that the driver is giving 9" passes if the skier is going to balk.  And maybe if at the end the skier asks it was green.  And calling into the tower its green.

End of the pass skier drops the boat crew reports 6 green green - that's enough data for the event to continue.  Let the driver see his numbers but by masking maybe that doesn't need to be called out on the radio the time and pass tolerance so the skier doesn't get back to the dock and gripe. That's all I mean by masking for the purpose of the event it was in spec or out of spec.  For the purpose of the driver or back end troubleshooting its there.

What do they call the doctor who almost fails medical school?

[Horton]

@BraceMaker maybe tournaments are different in your area. Around here the driver, the chief driver and scorer are the only people who typically see the data in a tournament (I forget if the scorer actually sees the data or just pass/fail).  If the driver is way off and not getting better then it is the chief driver's job to get involved or not. I have never had a tournament driver say anything about his numbers to me when I was skiing or when I was boat judge. (Someone will correct me if the boat judge sees the data in a class L/R.)

On the other hand SurePath is a unbiased system that can tell drivers the truth. I know of at least a few Sr Drivers who really should not be. If you do not practice driving short line skiers for 6 months and then show up a tournament you should expect to likely be embarrassed.  Tournaments are freaking expensive. If the guy behind the wheel is not serious I have wasted my time and money. 

[scoke]

@BraceMaker

You seem pretty knowledgeable about subjects but in this thread it comes off as you don't actually ski tournaments, regionals or nationals? 

 

Is that true?

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by scoke

[JackQ]

@Horton, I strongly agree with your comments on drivers that essentially dont drive skiers.  In the South Region this is not much of a problem, but when I skied in the Eastern Region, I was about to be pulled in a Tournament (In late July) and the driver said it was only the 2nd time that year that he pulled a skier (Practice or Tournament).  I asked how well he would expect me to ski if it was only my 2nd set of the year. He said, not very well at all. I replied why should I expect his driving to be any better.  Needless to say, not exactly well received.  There are a lot of good/great drivers that have not been given enough opportunity to drive in tournaments for lack of an “reputation” ShurePath will help remove the mediocre and have objective indication of those who are good. 

[liquid d]

It's a great tool!  I consider myself a very good driver. Yet, we were not using the surepath for a month or 2, and were switching back and forth on boats used.  I put it back in about 2 weeks ago, and discovered i was 6-8 Centimeters to the driver side consistently.  Took another 2 sets to get my "vision" back to where it should be.   

Now i want to get in the other boat with it, and see where i'm at!  

Edited July 5, 2023 by liquid d

[Golfguy]

Now we can measure speed and boat path using gps technology if only we could track the ski going around the buoy. We could post scores using tech. Maybe that would perk some interest in our sport.

 

[A_B]

We use it and think it makes a better driver out of everyone.  

What I wonder though, is sometimes I don't think I was off like it records.   Doesn't happen a lot, but there are times when it says I was +/- and I didn't think that I was.  

How do we know it is working 100% right all the time?  It would not be good if someone's pass was pulled because of a technical glitch.  No?

A big no on GPS steering from me.   What if it pegs the rudder hard one way or the other due to a malunction?

Realize we drove back in the day hot-sticking the boat with a stop watch in our right hand on the throttle when we didn't have an observier.  Technological advancement is a good thing, but it kind of takes the fun out of it too if you enjoy the challenge of being a good driver!  

 

[BraceMaker]

@A_B what if it pegs the rudder?  Why would it need "full" control of the rudder?  Planes have auto pilot, ships have autopilot, small yachts have autopilot, bass boats have auto pilot, we put the boat on ZO cruise control which has no mechanical safety what if ZO just chose to go full throttle on you as you were coming into the dock yet we use that.  PP for instance was failsafe.  If PP freaked out and tried to go full throttle it just took all the slack out of the cable and then your boat went whatever the throttle was set to.

If you just took the cable where it attaches to the rudder arm and installed a servo right there that rotates the connection point on the rudder arm some small amount the driver would still drive but the course would be corrected coming into the gates the boat would find the center line.  Going down the course the boat would attempt to maintain center and you could give the driver the equivalent of the PP "More throttle" which would just display that the driver needs to move the wheel left or right.  Maybe the system can only engage if the driver moves the steering wheel is within 10 degrees either side of straight ahead and beyond that it disengages.  

So many easy ways to design around this in a way that would make skiing better, safer, less fatiguing and then we sell this to every open water ski enthusiast, the boat will go dead nuts straight when engaged + at constant speed unless the steering wheel deviates by more than 10 degrees from center.  How many times has your buddy treated you like a tuber and you don't want to complain because its his boat....

 

 

"fun out of it if you enjoy being a good driver" sure I support that maybe if a skier wants their driver to give them a hand throttled pass with a stop watch timer they should be able to opt in for it must be in tolerance and no re-rides given for out of tolerance.  Wonder how many skiers will opt in for the pass.

Edited July 6, 2023 by BraceMaker

[Horton]

@Golfguy nearing panda zone...

[A_B]

@BraceMaker Pardon my lake of servo knowledge.  I guess my thought on the throttel control was the driver could overide a few ways, pulling the throtte back, pulling the safety lanyard, or hitting the stop button,  

If you get a hard left or right rudder that is unexpected, I was thinking getting tossed out of the boat.  If safety can be built into this then I agree if you have crappy drivers in your group, by all means have at it.  

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@A_B don't need to know about servos its just a question about how a system is put together for safety.  And in general its pretty simple you get 2 inputs from the throttle and 2 inputs from the throttle body.  The inputs are usually designed to be inverses so how closed is the throttle body vs how open is the throttle body.  So if one is 20% and the other is 80% they sum to 100 and the computer knows the reading is accurate.  It might ignore minor error such as 18% and 80% it could average and say 19% and not throw an error.  And then it compares that to the throttle body values and if the throttle is open a corresponding amount the engine goes off down the lake.  If it errors it faults out.

If you've ever seen a steering cable snap the boat goes hard turn one or the other way - well if you had a system reading the helm and the rudder position and you could immediately kill the engine - so right now we have no failsafe for a failure of the cable system....

 

[lpskier]

@Horton Don’t be too quick to give @Golfguy a panda. The very idea he suggests is technology now being developed by Jenn LaPoint for her Compete app. Her app will track the path of the ski and can be used for “virtual course skiing” or as a training tool in the course. It’s pretty cool stuff. 

[Horton]

@lpskier huge respect for JLP. RTK-GPS on a ski is certainly Panda territory.

I wasted a lot of time a few years ago working with these guys https://www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2022/04/12/sports-video-tech-company-trace-raises-47-million-series-c-round-valued-at-190-million/?sh=5490ffd96f6b

David Lokshin can out to the lake to work on this a number of times.

My take away is the tech is no where near ready - partly because GPS units lose connection when submerged or surrounded by spray.  

[Drago]

This whole thread has parked right in front of the Pandas' house. 

[LeonL]

I have a car that while not really self driving, will steer itself (staying in its lane) when cruises control us engaged.  You can override it but it requires additional steering effort.  So, the technology exists as far as the safety aspect goes.  Just lightly hold the wheel.

[Horton]

So the other question is "do you think SurePath has cut down on shenanigans?" Are scores now more often legitimate?

[dave2ball]

@Horton yes.  I still see scores the same. It has made all drives  legit  as far as the path. If bad the scorer will call a bad boat path you can’t have any longer.  

[MDB1056]

40 minutes ago, Horton said:

So the other question is "do you think SurePath has cut down on shenanigans?" Are scores now more often legitimate?

Shenanigans were rampant? 

[Horton]

@MDB1056

Rampant? no.

problematic? Yes