Binding Custom Fitting

[tjm]

Earlier this week I purchased new snow ski boots.    I was in the chair for about 2.5 hours while the Master Bootfitter did countless measurements,  adjustments, observations, back and forth feedback, etc.  He worked very hard to compensate for physical issues, bow legs, stiff ankles, compromised knees, and a handful of other issues, with the goal of insuring I would have equal access to both edges of both skis, with balance and minimum effort required, to insure the boots were working for me and not against me.    I started wondering if the same kind of detailed and deliberate approach to fitting could be applied to waterski boots, especially with the wide acceptance of hard shell boots.   Maybe it already is????   Any of you all heard of this in the H2O world of skiing.  Anybody actually doing this??

[lpskier]

I have custom footbeds and molded liners. 

[tjm]

@lpskier   I know lots of guys do that.  It was the whole concept of the “Master Bootfitter” that got me wondering.    These guys are trained,   
htpps://masterfituniversity.com   As an example.  

[thager]

I added 1/4 " cant below each Vapor boot and picked up a full pass this season. Seemed to make my offside turns much more consistent. 

[DW]

Yes although DIY in my case.  I cant the boot, the liners are heat moldable, and have some specific inserts to get the fit I want.  No idea if there are any ‘professional’ water ski boot fitters.  You might try the roller blade industry given that’s what hard boots evolved from.

[aupatking]

@thager a full pass? Can you share a picture of your boot setup?

Wasn’t it @BKistler who makes Carbon, fully customized boots like Apollo Ono’s speed skating shells? I remember a few years back seeing full casts of feet and boots made specifically for them. They looked a lot like what Joel Howley has as his rear boot now. 

I also remember (possibly wrongly) the boot fitting concept to have figured into Adam Caldwell’s modification to his Supershell 

[Jtim3032]

@tjm I have thought the same for quite a while. Hardshell shapes (rollerblades) are designed for when feet are "side by side" whereas in water skiing, feet are one in front of the other and already our shins/legs are no longer directly above and inline with the boot but are offset to the outside. Yet there is no adjustment for this which means there is a built in bias against the offside (assuming the skier weight is sufficiently over the front foot). I did hear that Fogman bindings (who comes from a snow skiing background) had some way of adjusting for "cant" but do not know for certain.

[DW]

@Jtim3032 - that is the reason I cant my front boot.  (Cant = tipping top of boot).  Done by adding a spacer under the inside of the mounting plate or adjusting the upper cuff lateral angle.

[thager]

@aupatkingYes, a full pass. I had been stuck at 2-3 @-35 for years. I now seem to be stuck at 2-3 @ -38. Can't say canting was the only factor as I did change from a 19 Senate Pro to an LP1 this spring  but I feel the canting was the most influential. To accomplish the cant I traced the boot bottom outline on paper then cut out the pattern and spray painted over the pattern on 1/4" thick HDPE. After cutting out the pattern on a band saw I sanded the bottom on a belt sanding table until the angle I wanted was accomplished. basically 1/4" on one side to zero on the other side full length. 

[dchristman]

@Jtim3032I think you're making an incorrect assumption that skate boots are designed for feet side-by-side. This may be true of snow ski boots where your feet are predominantly side-by-side while skiing, but when skating you push off with one foot and ride balanced over the other foot, rarely riding with feet side-by-side. It seems to me that applying skate boots to slalom skiing is a fine fit. If you have special considerations like @thager then you adjust as needed.

[BKistler]

@aupatking not sure how my name got associated with this thread but you’ve got the wrong guy. 🤔

[Rednucleus]

@thagerDid you try the modification on the Senate?  If not please do and report back - will be a nice objective test of ski vs boot change as far as what made the difference.  And, did you ski the LP1 w/o the cant??

[thager]

@Rednucleus I did my initial testing on the Senate Pro in 2022  flipping the cants in every combination I could think of before finally arriving at 1/4" canting on the instep side of each plate near the end of the season. This was 180 degrees from where my logic thought it would be. My consistency improved but my score by only a bouy or two. I have not been on the SP since and I have not ridden the LP1 without the canting. I am convinced I have found my combo. Boot pressure is now even on both sides of the boot cuff. Not sure if my performance on the SP will tell you much except that there was less( Bow leg) kick out with the cant applied. Really two very different skis  

[Rednucleus]

@thagerthat suggests the LP1 was the bigger factor in you improvement. Would be interesting to see how you do on that ski w/o canting.

[ghutch]

This would be a great time to resurrect the Optimal Binding Ski Boot thread... @Horton?

[thager]

@Rednucleus Hard to say, by the time I arrived at the canting combo I liked the 22 season was winding down and getting cold. Didn't really push it much. The 2023 season is now over with an inch of ice on the lake.  

[Horton]

@ghutch Man I just do not know. There is a lot known about about binding position and I have I lot to say about about boot stiffness but beyond that it seems like undiscovered territory. Personally I am guilty of ignoring this topic. I have no idea how really valid it is.

I will say this. None of the best skiers in the world seem to be going too far outside the box in this except Howely.  Consensus seems to be a kicker is better then double boots. Minimalist back binding like a Reflex R Style is next best. 

Even Asher who at least at one time built his own cycling shoes seems to run a stock or nearly stock boot. There is nothing custom about Freddie's boot and Smith is in rubber. @twhisper has messed with bindings as much as anyone and i think his boots are close to stock or stock.

I am not saying this is not interesting but I am not sure how much there is here. Does it seem like there should be something here? Maybe?

[BraceMaker]

I think as a functional matter what we're asking a binding to do is more similar to skate boots than it is to downhill boots.  Which if you've ever had ice hockey skates fitted I think you're more in the realm.

 

[DW]

For me, canting my front binding (tipping side to side) is an adjustment that evens out my onside / offside turn radius -or- perhaps said a bit differently evens out the toeside / heelside foot pressure from onside to offside turns to achieve a more even onside to offside turn radius.

 

[Deanoski]

Lot of skiers have been cutting flattening.   Punching the shell just as you would do with a snow ski boot 

 

 

 

[Nando]

As a former master alpine boot fitter, it seems to me that the relationship between ski (or skis) and boots is very different mainly because in alpine skiing the skis are relatively flexible and interact with a solid surface while in water skiing the skis are very stiff and interact with water so whatever degree of forgiveness is needed in equpment is largely in the boots.  That would correspond with a lot of us modifying our water ski boots for greater flexibility and going with rear boots that allow a fair amount of movement.  Having said that, my hard shells are modified in some of the same ways my alpine boots are (bumped out in a couple of spots and heat-molded) and when I was jumping, I had custom orthotics in my bindings that I thought helped (not in greater distance, 'cause I still sucked).