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@GaryJanzig The boat is new to me so I have no experience with PP. Can factory support with the PP upgrade purchase guide the boat owner with tuning the upgraded system.

@klindy Using poly rope as a limiter may be helpful. The buoys are 60% submerged by design, so the extra 40% to sink the ball doesn't stretch the shock cord that much further. I want the length of the shock cord to provide some consistency in the skier buoy submersion after a heavy rain. Thanks for the creative suggestion.

On a new submersible course that I am installing this week, I was planning on using 5/16" shock cord for the top 4' connected to skier and gate markers. When the course is submerged this particular shock cord is stretched to 160%. I have adjustable shock-cord hooks for making large adjustments, but the day-to-day 3" water depth changes would be evened out by the shock cord. If it lasted 5 months that would be good enough for me. My concern is that it might forget it relaxed length when its stretched to 160% almost all the time.

@pregom To answer your question, this is the illustration from my 1983 article in the Waterskier magazine. On the original 1975 version of this course, the horizontal ropes that pull all of the anchor lines over at an angle were attached to existing sub-buoys on an existing course. On the new course that we are installing - today- I have all the connections at 44 feet above the bottom of the lake, so the horizontal rope connection varies from 11-25 feet below the surface. This keeps the lines further down from fisherman and creates a uniform horizontal "pull" distance to get all the buoys lowered the same amount. The specific value of 44 feet was governed by the shallowest water depth - 55 feet- so the connections are 11 feet below the surface on the the 55M gate buoys at one end. The geometry of a 14 foot differential in the 'altitude' of the connections only creates a trivial difference in the length of the horizontal ropes. The sub-buoys are 7' below the surface with easy adjustments if the water level goes down a significant amount, the horizontal pull ropes are lower on the anchor line at 44' up from the bottom of the lake. You asked how much winching to pull the course down. 18 feet pulls it down 7 feet. On this course we have switched to coated 3/32 stainless cable to the shore because its 630 feet and poly-rope has too much stretch for that distance. Another revision from the original course. To prevent the network of ropes from distorting the course because of friction from 600 feet cable going through plastic tubing, there is a single sub-buoy pulling straight up from the center anchor so the buoyancy of the slalom course isn't powering the extraction of the cable from the winch as the buoys approach their final position. To minimize the use of the plastic tubing, we profiled the topography of the lake bottom with our own through-the-ice depth measurements from the center of the course to my dock. Only 350 of cable needs to be in tubing because the last half is not in contact with the lake bottom. We may use more tubing length, but that won't happen til June. Manual or Electric Winch This isn't my primary place to practice, so to keep it simple we are using a manual winch. Its a common boat trailer type of winch modified by using a 15" john-deer lawn tractor steering wheel. The original hand crank on all of these winches is too unbalanced and the winch unwinds at very high speed. The wheel is a better human interface for pulling in about 20 feet of cable with the very low gearing on a manual winch. On the original course which had to pull in more than 20 feet, it took 3 minutes to wind the course down and 30 seconds for it to pull itself up, spinning the winch wheel 6 times faster than when I wound it down winding as fast as I could. When we added the power winch it slowed everything down, but we could let the course surface or submerge from the house, so slow didn't matter. There are no inexpensive electric winches with programmable limit switches based on winding or unwinding progress. On the original winch I had a 10/32 threaded rod connected the winch hub somehow and positioned switches that would trigger when a threaded object would travel on the rod to reach the COURSE UP position and COURSE DOWN position along with some crude logic using electro-magnetic relays. It worked for decades, but I would rather be skiing than trying to do that again. Its the Men 9 perspective changing priorities.

For the course I am installing through the ice today, I just located a 180 degree stainless steel 3" tubing for $51.00. Its a single piece to replace the PCV parts in the drawing above. The stainless steel is from a performance automotive supplier. It shorter but that isn't a problem and the rope won't wear through SS.

I am installing sub-buoys at both ends for the pre-gates, but may only install the surface buoys on one end. I'll be able to figure out if the pre-gate is useful to me or not.

@Horton I just added the 55M buoys to my drawings for the course I am laying out on the ICE on Sunday. Maybe there is no single precise answer to this question . . how does the skier use the 55M buoys to assist with his setup ? Looking at it on paper I don't see the answer to this question. Thanks

THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSES . . . ok ok ! >> I will setup the 55 buoys along with the rest of the course. This is a lake of 95% weekend homes, so there will be a lot time when the 55s can be installed and nobody would care. From memory I recall building in a safety factor to avoid missing the gates back when the 55's didn't exist. I was inconsistent at getting-wide-early at ball 1 at 38off because my speed to the wake was sometimes too slow because I was too cautious approaching the gates. Maybe the pre-gates will help with that.

I am installing a new submersible course next week through the ICE. The additional length caused by the end alignment gates extends the course into territory with owners who are adverse to change. (even though the course is 600 feet off shore and submersible to be as low-profile as possible) I skied in tournaments from age 14 to 42 when their weren't alignment gates. I am starting over in M9 and don't have first hand knowledge of their value to the skier. The boat which is new to me, has Perfect Pass which will be upgraded with ZBox and Star Gazer . . my next winter project. Does this system require alignment gates ? How big a deal is it to not have alignment gates on a practice course ? I am inclined to not have them until the course becomes familiar to the lakeshore community.

@Nando You asked if there was wear on the lines from the course going up and down. The only problem we had with "wear" . . . After 12 years of very heavy use, one of the ropes finally cut into the 3" PVC coupler on the Center Anchor. The anchor was about 85 feet down, so I dragged a replacement anchor into position using Copper pipe instead of PVC. About 20 years of use and none of the 5/16 AWSA rope needed to be replaced. The 3" PVC pipe in this illustration was changed to copper after 12 years of heavy use.

@ghutch Thanks for you valuable comments . . .Did you replace the servo and linkages on your 04 boat ? I just posted another question about using the old 2004 mechanical components - or not.

I am going to upgrade Perfect Pass and add Star Gazer in a 2004 ProStar-TT that is "new" to me. I can use the current Servo and mechanical linkages and save about $400. We have all experienced the effects of aging on steering or throttle linkages. Do PP mechanicals get old, sticky, sloppy (or other problems) with 16 years of use ? I know the current PP mechanical parts work, but I only used the boat 1 day before putting it in winter storage. I don't know if they work well.

There isn't much vertical space from the top of the doors to the plate where the roof members sit. There is a lot of roof load so a large enough engineered wood header may not be available to fit. If necessary, your local contractors steel company can size the steel beam you need for nothing. (if the engineered wood provider says he can't get something big enough in the space) In either event your supplier can specify (engineer) the necessary header so you don't need a 3rd party engineer . . unless your building inspector requires it. Just give your supplier(s) the list of conditions MickeyThompson provided above.

This Prostar 190 is for Slalom practice for M8 & M9 skiers where 38 off is their first difficult practice pass . Another local M8 skier installed Stargazer and ZBox in his 2001 Nautique. He practices 35/38 off behind two boats . . his 2001 Nautique and a friends 2018 Nautique with ZO. Both boat owners have no complaints about practicing behind the older boat with Stargazer. Is that the consensus about owning StarGaser for short-line tournament skiers ? For divisions at 32 and 30mph. Another Question . . anyone installed this on a 190 themselves ? The Nautique guy said he did his own with no problem.

Boats keep getting wider; add flexibility to your course . I used 1.5" PVC spacer 5 feet down - The PVC pipe had holes drilled for a variety of widths. Used zip ties through pipe and around the anchor line. To insure a stable vertical position, stick the zip tie through the braided rope.

I posted this question . . several comments talked about skier performance and weight being a variable in PP suitability for practice. . 175lbs, SKIING PRACTICE at 38 off @ 30mph (men9)

@MISkier When you say "quite soft" does that mean it would accelerate to compensate when you changes edges off the wake ?

Just bought a 2004 ProStar with Perfect Pass . . I Probably won't afford to add Stargazer with Zbox right away. Skier weight 175lbs Practice 38off @ 30mph (M9) If Perfect Pass is calibrated right on the practice boat, how difficult will it be to ski behind Zero Off ? Does the Stargazer with Zbox do enough or is a Zero-Off upgrade needed ?

What is your weight, that you though it was too long . . and what is the speed in your division ? Any comments about what it did well compared to what you have ?

@twhisper That video is perfect ! I think I can see a lot of difference between 36mph and 30mph. (@38off) The 2 most obvious difference (imo) 1. The speed you have when you commit to the full turn near the ball is much less at 30mph, so it appears you can carry your speed into a tight line. An end aerial view of 39/41 off of a pros pass shows they have almost no lateral movement towards the wake for a moment after their ski has completed the turn. The ski is essentially plowing sideways down course for a small moment before they get on the line. 2. Maybe it was just YOU having an easy time at 38 off, but it looked like the rope tension and the pull duration you applied to the wake was much less than 38off at 36. If that's true, that is a hopeful factor for me . . because I quit skiing because of lower back problems. Your effort from the ball to the wake looked like 28off.

@lpskier There are quite a few videos around of 34/36mph skiers skiing into 39 off that are not in Record Tournaments. For my purposes it doesn't matter if its a Record Tournament or not . . just looking to see how any good skier approaches skiing short line 38/39 at 30mph. Thanks

There is currently a long discussion on the differences between 38/39 off at 34mph versus 30mph. Subjects like how to keep speed up to prevent sinking behind the ball. A video would be helpful but have not found one. I am going straight from Men 3 to Men 9 (with a time gap) I don't know if I'll ever get to 39off, but just in case.

Starting with a lake and nothing else I am going on a limb to return to competitive skiing in Men9. Just bought a 2004 Master Craft Prostar TT but still need a boat lift etc. Next month (January) is the ideal time for a Winter installation of a slalom course. The course has to be setup and removed for each practice session. We are on a busy lake, with a lot of residents that have zero tolerance for a course becoming an attractive nuisance. The county Sheriff who has sole jurisdiction delegated by our DNR, says we don't need a permit as long its not visible between sunset and sunrise. But realistically, it can't be up unless we are using it. I have looked at cable courses and individual anchor courses with air pumps and 1000's of feet of sunken pressure lines, fittings, bladders etc but they seem too expensive, complicated and subject to technical problems. So unless something better comes along soon, I think I will be going back to the course we setup in 1975. Its based on individual anchors. As far as I know, it was the world's first submersible course. (Historical Note: Mike Suyderhoud patented the cable course in 1975 and later someone made a cable course submersible) When we built this course in 1975, we hard-wired a garage door remote control into our ski boat with a button on the dashboard to raise & submerge the course. We used it for 18 years with no unusual problems with the course or with other lake users. Caught a about 5 fish lures . . that was our biggest problem. I wrote a how-to article for the Water Skier magazine in August 1983. The only downside was the submersible feature pulled the skier balls about 6" down course from ideal alignment. We could have fixed that but never got around to it. The submersible feature was all done with a couple of spools of AWSA water ski rope and 1/3 yard of cement for the center anchor. Total cost about $300 until I converted from a manual winch to the electric winch with remote control. This only works with deep water . . our lake in 1975 had 85' depth . . our current lake 75' depth. Any suggestions ? for a course that has to be setup for each practice session.

@lpskier After a 35 year gap, I am starting over in Men9 at 75 years old. It may be a pipe dream, but I am hoping to catch up with my friends from way back who are still skiing and placing in the nationals in Men 7,8,9. I am healthy and active but have no idea how long it takes to rebuild SKILLS after so many years. SKILL recovery is the biggest unknown. I have never stopped "visualizing" the experience, but that's different than muscle memory. A QUESTION If its convenient to do certain weight training that involves 50 lifts at a light weight, what does that do that do is different than doing 10 lifts at a heavy weight. I just started learning to workout with a kettlebell which feels great after a few days. I live in two places and I have to have something portable at our second home. The kettlebell is light for some traditional weight train moves, but if 50 lifts does something for my strength, the kettlebell is a convenient item to have at both homes.

@Horton Mornings are our best shot for having the lake to ourselves. I am trying to recall how much time after sunrise the sun is high enough to not be a problem. Maybe that also depends on how the breeze is affecting the reflection of off the water surface . .