MrBrown

4 secrets to the ultimate slalom turn http://waterskimag.com/features/2010/06/09/4-secrets-to-the-ultimate-turn/ Great video on Counter Rotation http://ballofspray.com/home-v16/tech-articles-mainmenu/472-terry-winter-on-the-dock-water-ski-lesson-counter-rotation-live-by-terry-winter

Hi, nice skiing! In both photo sequences you are not Counter Rotating during the turn. Instead, near the completion of the turn you are rolling over with the outside shoulder/hand and grabing the handle before the ski has finished the turn. Notice in the starboard pics that you posted that you have both hands on the handle BEFORE the ski has crossed under the rope. This is incorrect. When the turn is executed properly, the ski should have already crossed under the rope BEFORE you have both hands on the handle. How to avoid this from happening is by Counter Rotating during the turn with a "bow and arrow" movement, or a "starting a lawn mower" movement with the outside arm and hand. This counter rotating movement will help you to keep you shoulders open downcourse longer and will allow you to better ski your hip to the handle at the completion of the turn. Counter Rotation also allows your inside hip to move more forward and more centered over the ski to set you up with better tip pressure for a smoother and more effecient turn. Oh by the way, you may want to try standing taller in the turns, this will help you to keep you hips more forward and centered better over the ski! (notice your hips in the portside pics) If your hips are trailing too much coming into the turn, then the hips most likely will be trailing too much out of the turn! Hope this helps a bit!!!

If you have a more traditional skiing style standing tall, hips up, chest out, elbows to the vest, and handle low and in the pocket with more weight naturally distributed on the rear foot,...you may want to look at this skier's vids who just won the Big Dawg again,...Chad Scott. He is also one of the best "tail riders" out there today and is the furthest thing from "west coast"!!! Watch where the water is breaking under his ski all the way through the course! :-) ,

Nice skiing!!! You can't get your hips up by trying to get them up!!!!! Getting the hips up is a "RESULT" of executing a few other techniques! "Trailing with the hips" means that you are also "leading with the shoulders!!!". So actually you need to be "leading more with the hips" and "trailing more with the shoulders" so to speak. To accomplish this,...you need a "low anchor point" as mentioned by Trent F in his BOS article. As Horton mentioned standing tall is great!!! Because of body mechanics, by standing tall you will automatically move your hips forward and will be more centered and stacked on the ski. So standing tall is a great tip! However if you stand tall and your arms are separated from your vest, your are going to have a "high anchor point" and you will receive the pull of the boat through the shoulders and you will once again be trailing with your hips and leading with your shoulders. So standing tall will help but it is not the most important fundamental technique that you will need to execute to break this bad habit. Here are couple more ideas...... - Lock the elbows/(back of the arms) to the vest with the arms totally straight. As a result, this will ensure a "low anchor point". This will keep the handle low and in the pocket/power triangle. If the elbows/arms are locked to the vest when you receive the pull of the boat,..this will automatically pull your hips up and allow the shoulders to fall back into a strong pulling position! -chest out - by getting the chest out, this will automatically move the hips forward and will move the shoulders back and allow you to fall into a strong pulling position! Here is a youtube video describing what I am talking about! http://www.youtube.com/user/38orbust?feature=mhee

Oops, I understand Brent. No problem. I am sorry for gettin' carried away. I will back off and take it easy! Thanks for the opportunity to participate on this great BOS forum though! :-)

"He's not from this planet" is what Hintringer commented to me while watching Rossi run 39 at OKEE. Amazing! Haven't seen him snow ski though! I bet it's just as amazing!

@mattewbrown wrote - but, shoulders are as far back as possible?? What do you mean by this? Back toward the tail of the ski, or back away from the boat? A skier should attempt to get his shoulders back in a comfortable leaning position that his body mechanics will allow, and not uncomfortably force the leaning position. The goal should be having the "elbows locked to the vest". The shoulders should fall back comfortably away from the pull of the boat. Here is a great example of a skier with great knee bend, in leveraged position, getting his elbows to his vest, with his hips forward, and a comfortable lean away from the boat............. (Please compare this MB video with Badal's and see the difference between MB and Badal. Great skiing MB!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @Matthewbrown - If we are talking about the "stick" style as it's called then we only need to refer to the greatest skier ever with this style, Chris Parrish Parrish's coach for years was another "stick style" skier named Lucky Lowe. I believe that Parrish has also learned a lot from another "stick skier", Schnitz. I feel that Lucky and Schnitz both ski with a little more weight distributed on their back foot than Parrish. I agree that CP is the greatest "stick skier" at 36mph, but the greatest ever "stick skier" at 34mph is Jeff Rodgers. Rodgers skis with a little more weight distributed on his back foot than CP. Isn't it a coincidence, that both the Mens 34mph and the Mens 36mph World Slalom Records are held by "stick skiers"? The sad thing is,...how many pro coaches are teaching the fine art of "stick skiing" today? Lucky, Schnitz, Parrish! When skiing with Schnitz and Hintringer at OKEE, Schnitz and Hintringer personally taught me the finer points of skiing the "stick style". I am just using the same terminology that Schnitz and Hintringer uses. -Schnitz has always said that the ski accelerates the fastest and is fastest on the tail with less load. -Schnitz has always said that when skiing the "stick Style", more weight will be distributed on the tail of ski, and there will be a slight lifting up of the front foot against the top of the front binding while pulling. -Schniz has always said that "stick style" is the most efficient style of skiing!

@'ShaneH -good stuff! (This is going to be really good,……..or I might get kicked off the forum for this analysis! Hahaha ) To better understand, how a skier can find his best “balance point” for his skiing style, let’s examine the different weight distributions points of each skiing style? (in general) Different skiing styles may cause the skier to have his weight distributed differently over the ski . This is due to different hip and shoulder placement of each skiing style. I am using the 2 examples and videos below to demonstrate the GENERAL DIFFERENCE in the weight distribution over the ski. Medium to Exaggerated Knee Bend - (Badal, Miller, Badal, MB, TW) Example - Badal’s video Generally Speaking 1) With increased knee bend the hips will move slightly back. 2) Shoulders will move slightly more forward 3) Increase in weight being distributed on the front foot forcing more ski in the water 4) Tendency to have more equal weight being distributed over both feet 5) The heel of the back foot may be slightly pulled up 6) Using the HIPs as a counter weight against the pull of the boat. 7) Takes greater leg endurance and lower back strength to ski in this position Challenges 1)In this low and leveraged position,…as the knees become more bent it becomes more and more difficult for the skier to keep the elbows to the vest, hips up, shoulders back, and the handle low and in the pocket. Once the elbows are separated from the vest, the skier quickly begins to receive the pull of the boat through shoulders (high anchor point) and starts to lead with the shoulders and trail with the hips. This will place an increasing amount of weight on the front foot and the front of the ski which could lead to a possible "out the front" fall. Little Knee Bend – (CP, Jeff Rodgers, Lucky, Dr. Morgan, Schnitz, Karina, Scott, Hintinger) Example - Scott’s old video, (although he has modified his style since then) Generally speaking 1) As the legs straighten, the hips will move forward 2) Shoulders will more easily fall back 3) More weight will be distributed on the back foot than the front foot, forcing more of the front of the ski out of the water 4) Top of the front foot may be pulling up slightly on binding 5) Using the shoulders falling back as counter weight against the pull of the boat 6) Takes less leg strength and lower back strength to ski in this position Challenges 1) Because the skier is standing so tall and not using his hips as a counter weight, it is critical that the skier keeps a leveraged body position by locking his elbows to his vest which will pull his hips forward, allowing his upper body (the counter weight) to fall away, with the handle low and in the pocket (low anchor point). Conclusion So whatever skiing style a skier chooses, the main focus is always attempting to keep the hips in a forward and centered position, the shoulders back, and the elbows locked to the vest. This will help ensure that the skier is always stacked and in the most leveraged position possible, with a low anchor point. “Elbows Locked to the Vest” is how all skiers of all different skiing styles can ensure that their............... - hips are always as far forward and centered as possible, - shoulders are as far back as possible - chest is out - arms are straight - handle is low as possible (low anchor point) - the body is as stacked as possible - and that the skier maintains the BEST BALANCED STANCE as possible. “Elbows Locked to the Vest” will help ensure that the skier is at the best “balance point” possible for his skiing style! If a skier is finding it difficult to get his elbows locked to his vest, then he should possibly attempt to stand taller until he can achieve this fundamental body position. From this solid foundation, the skier can either choose to ski taller or more compressed, but can always maintain a balanced and stacked position for his skiing style!

@ShaneH wrote - But they (Regina, Favret) are strong as an ox and just lay the ski over from there to get across. @ShaneH - Yes, I think that they are both very strong but more importantly I feel that they get more leveraged than most skiers also. It is hard to win a tug of war with someone who is both strong and leveraged! But is the "tip rise" that they are experiancing a bad thing??? Getting back why @35inthebag started this topic, in an attempt to understand what may be the hidden benefits of "tip rise", I posted Rossi's video showing his "tip rise" on his pullout for his gates. Rossi must feel that there is some benefit to this technique, but what are they. Could the benefits be one of the reasons how Regina, Larson (1/4 speed video) are able to run 39 with so much "tip rise"? Here is what Rossi wrote in the article "Keys to Slalom Gates" regarding this technique! http://www.usawaterski.org/pages/Instructional%20Articles/Slalom/SlalomGates.pdf "When you reach the bottom of your fall, the upper body will catch a small amount of load. This load picks up the skier and releases the ski. You will just feel yourself rising up and the only thing you should think about is letting the ski go wherever it wants to go. The freer your fall was in the last stage, the more energy you create. This energy is what makes the ski shoot from side-to-side. When watching a pro skier, it’s almost shocking to see how much energy exudes through the edge change."

Here's a skier that initiates the pull for his gates with more "tip rise" than any other skier I know. But why? I believe I read somewhere that that he feels that it was the most efficient way to pull out with the least amount of load.

@ThanBogan wrote....For each bad thing that can happen from not being in a balanced position, what is the correction to make? [And the answer of "stand in a balanced position" is not allowed! :) ] Exactly!

@thager wrote....Your perfect balance point is dependent on how you are physiologically put together. Everyone's ideal spot is different and is dependent on style, experience, skill level etc! I totally agree with @thager. The point that I was trying to make is that I don't think any one of the Big Dawgs has a "better balance" point than the other, they just have different "balance points" depending on their physiological build, skiing style, experiance, skill level. Some skiers may look less graceful and smoother than others but that doesn't mean their balance point is wrong,......just different.

@ShaneH But Chad still ran 39off! I believe that he was balanced for his style! (I did change it to include all of the 1/4 speed skiers.) The question is how does a skier with different skiing style, know if he is truly balanced? Is the weight distribution on the ski the same for all skiing styles? What techniques can a skier do to ensure that he is balanced for his particular style?

I'm sorry RAL but I had to chuckle at your comment! I'm sorry, but that was funny! lol (Get better soon! )

What is the definition of a "Balanced Stance" on a ski and how does it apply to each skiing style such as West Coast, Compressed, Stick Style (straight legs),...etc. 1) Does "Balanced" mean having equal weight distributed on each foot, or does weight distribution depend on the skiing style of the skier? 2) With each different skiing style, is there a different "balance point" on the ski and a different weight distribution on the ski? 3) With each different skiing style, how can the skier tell if he is truly "Balanced" on the ski? If you watch the 1/4 speed videos of the Big Dawgs,....Scott, Larson, Badal, Brown, etc, etc.....you will notice a difference of their weight distribution on the ski! Who is more balanced? Thanks!

@Horton Thanks John for allowing me to participate in this amazing forum! I truly appreciate that! I understand your viewpoint as Adim. and I certainly don't want share any techniques or concepts that could be detrimental to anyone's skiing! I only want what is best for all the skiers on BOS. To be honest, Chad Scott in his 1/4 speed video skis with less ski in the water than I do. I wouldn't want any skier to ski further back than Chad in his video, or further back than Jeff R, or Lucky. It would be counter-productive. Robert Marking 35off @ 34mph (seeing how slow and narrow I could run the course!) I think that what I am saying is being misinterpreted. It maybe my fault for using the wrong terminology. As for Regina, I don't really want to ski like her,......I just want a date!!!! ha Thanks again!!!

@ShaneH Yep,...but some of aspects of coordinates works though! I've seen Schnitz run 38's and 39's over and over! He's a machine! So how does Jeff Rodgers go out and run 4.5 @ 41off @ 34mph setting a new MM record? Jeff is skiing with his "old skool", "stick style" of skiing, with his straight front leg, hips up, and weight distributed back? Oh by the way, Jeff Rodgers ran 1 @ 43off @ 36mph back in 1997. What's Jeff Rodgers secret?!?!? How does he get cross course do quickly?!?!? Jeff Rodgers Sets New Masters Men Record, 4@41, at Trophy Lakes 9-3-2011 (4.5 @ 41 since then) Jeff Rodgers 43 @ 43 Official Trailor Interesting stuff! Jeff Rodgers cracks me up in his interviews! hahaha

@Horton I totally agree with you that Nate is the Best Skier on the Planet at 36mph. Simply amazing! I also feel that Jeff Rodgers with his "stick style" of skiing maybe the Best Skier on the Planet at 34mph. Amazing also! Two different styles getting the job done. @Horton As for Regina, she had a really nice 39 in her last World Record Video 2 @ 41. Way to go Regina! Congrats!!!! (Is she single by any chance?!?! ha )

Thanks Matt for the time to write such a detailed description! That's great! Obviously, your consistant skiing into 41 shows that what you are doing works and I personally have been very impressed with you skiing! I am just attempting to share my school of thought that I have learned from Schnitz ! Schnitz has always said that the ski is fastest on it's tail. Schnitz has always said that when a skier is standing tall in a Stacked Position with his .... -legs fairly straight -hips up, forward, and centered over the bindings -chest out -shoulders back -elbows to the vest -arms straight -handle low -head level -core muscles engaged ......that the skier in this stacked position will have more of his weight naturally distributed on the back portion of the ski. He will be in a "tug of war" body position and ready for the load of the boat. Schnitz calls this the "stick style" of skiing,....Mike Morgan, Lucky, Jeff Rodgers, Harald H,.....etc. @mattbrown wrote....That being said, there is an argument out there that maybe tail riding helps you control your speed better and helps skiers feel like they are in greater control and maybe faster isn't always better.... but I think that the great skiers who do tail ride out of the turn always find a way to get back to center just enough to get the acceleration they need. In regards to this statement, Schnitz has an article call "Speed Control for Your SKI". He goes into saying that when a skier is standing tall, elbows locked to the vest, and hips up, that there is NO WAY for a skier to DROP HIS HIP AWAY from the boat into too much angle. This is how a skier can control his cross course speed and cross course angle by using this standing tall, hips up, super stacked position. Thanks again for your feedback! :-)

Thanks Chad for chiming in and thanks for your feedback guys! No doubt...I am very impressed with Chad's skiing! Yes, I would agree that CP has more of an equal weight distribution over both of his feet than Chad does in this video. In this old video of Chad, it appears that his weight is distributed much further back than CP. Thanks for clearing that up.

@Klundell Thanks for the thorough response! Here is what @mattbrown just mentioned in the "is tip rise bad" thread about Brent's skiing. (Great review by the way @mattbrown) @mattbrown wrote .....starting at 38 and more so at 39 he begins pulling longer into 1,3,5 carrying more speed ergo the tip rise on that side...notice there is no tip rise on 2,4....but, why is he pulling longer into 1,3,5? this brings me to my next point, he's more on the back of the ski when the load comes out of 2,4 then he is 1,3..notice where his hips are.........skiing2heaven you are right to some degree in that you can get more acceleration on the back of the ski, however, ownly momentarily (for Brent), once his (Brent's) hips fall back behind his feet like from 4 to 5 at 38, you he looses his acceleration and creates more load (more ski in the water) making it mandatory for him to pull longer into the next turn... When you are accelerating out of the turn... -do you lean back towards the tail of the ski to accelerate? -or do you drive the front of the ski the water to get the ski to accelerate? If you get too much weight distributed on the front of the ski cross course will it..... - make the ski faster? - or will it cause the ski to slow and for you to be pulled out the front? In boat racing, to hit top speed does the driver......... - trim the engine to drive the front of the boat down in the water to go faster? - or does he trim the engine to bring almost all of the boat out of the water to go faster?

How do I post a youtube video? ha

@6balls I agree totally. Being too early at the buoy can be as bad as being too late! This is why David Nelson believes that skiing all your line lengths on the same path/line as your hardest pass is the key. Your body, mind, perception are all conditioned and trained to be on that same narrow but efficient path which is apexing closer to the buoy at all line lengths. Your ski is also tuned to ski that same path at all line lengths also. This will help to eliminate the perception of being late into the next buoy!

Good stuff and thanks for the feedback!!! (sorry that my response is so long!) If you watch Chad's stance before his turn in for his gates, you will see that's Chad's front leg is totally straight, and Chad's back leg is noticeably bent, with more weight being distributed over his back foot. It is also easy to see that the water is breaking behind Chad's front boot. I don't believe that this is a balanced stance with equal pressure on both the front and back foot. It is almost impossible to have balanced weight over both feet if the front leg is straight and the back leg is bent while standing in a stacked position with the hips forward, chest out, and the shoulders back! When Chad turns in for his gates, he is not using any front foot pressure and driving the front of the ski into the water to get the ski to turn. With a straight front leg and a bent back leg, Chad is falling back and away from the boat and pivoting the ski over on its tail. Once again, I don't see this as being balanced! If you watch where the water is breaking under Chad's ski during his wake crossing you can see that it is breaking between his bindings and even under his back binding. Once again, Chad's front leg is very straight especially from 1-2, 3-4, 5-6. I don't see this as being a balanced stance on the ski. He definitely has more weight distributed on his rear foot and on the back of the ski. (And as Matt Brown confirmed, the ski is fastest on it tail.) When you are stacked and you have your front leg nearly straight, back leg slightly bent, hips up and over the bindings, chest out, elbows locked to the vest, handle low, arms straight, and shoulders back, ......the upper body naturally falls backward and away from the boat with more weight distributed on the rear foot. This does not imply that the skier is pressing down on the back foot in any way. If you try this EXACT body position at home you will see that your front foot will be "PULLED UP" off the floor slightly, with all of your weight being distributed on your back foot. This "PULLING UP" of the front foot is what I am referring to. You are not concioiusly "PULLING UP" on the front foot, but this "PULLING UP" of the front foot is happening as a result of being in a super stacked position. Thanks again for your feedback guys! This is all about learning! (I will try to keep it shorter next time,...sorry!)

Good stuff!!! Heres' Regina's 2 @ 41 world record video! Please watch Regina's 38off and 39off pass and compare where her ski is finishing and pointing at the end of each turn. Also compare where the ski seems to be apexing at each line length. It appears to me that at 38off she is turning into more cross course angle and holding that angle,..than at 39. At 39 she appears to be turning more downcourse (especially at 3 and 5 ball) and waiting for the hookup with the boat with a slight hesitation, and also apexing much closer to the buoy.