gator1

@eleeski: Nope. Just as the huge lump of aluminum that holds the two screws on either side of the wing has "no" effect. In reality it has an effect, but that effect is constant, and consistent from ski to ski and OCD sufferer to OCD sufferer and therefore will cancel out of the equation. Perhaps you have hit upon a new and powerful tool in the psychiatric trade: They can now diagnose OCD vs insanity with one simple question: Do you believe .002 makes a difference? Answer yes, you've got OCD. Answer "no", but continue to ski after the injuries you and I and most of us veterans have sustained, and as my ex-Doctor said "now......., you don't make any money from this sport right?": Crazy. So sorry to hear you are laid up and on the sidelines. It sucks beyond belief and more than the non-crazies can comprehend.

So, which ski manufacturer will recognize the extreme OCD nature of their customers and mold a small, hydrodynamically insignificant flat reference surface on both the tail and running surface so us freaks WILL HAVE A GD COMMON point to measure to!? Or did somebody do that already and I missed it?

@patre. Put your ski on the dock with fin hanging free. Get in your reflex and rtp. Stand in your neutral skiing position. Note the position of your front leg where it enters the cuff of the reflex. If your leg is centered side to side in the cuff you do not need cants. If , however, the cuff is biting into the right side of your calf/shin and not the left you need cants. Use some washers to jack up the left (arch) side of the plate until your calf is centered in the plate. Typically a 1/4 to 3/8 inch of washers on each mounting screw on the left edge of the plate between the plate and ski. Try it. If it skis better let me know and I'll type up a poor mans method for you to make a good set of cants.

So, I should have signed off, since it is after drunkthirty, but here goes: you guys are making me nutso! Cant the gd binding. Hardshells don't allow you to roll your ankle. You will drastically minimize the learning curve if you use some washers or whatever under one side of the plate to get the binding aligned with your shin. If you don't do this, and your shin is not aligned with the binding you'll use all your joints to get the ski flat. It can be done, but far from optimal. Some people are almost square, they learn hardshells quickest. Everybody else is out of line and needs cants. The crooked folks take much longer to learn without cants. Do it first, then all the other placement stuff. Ahem. Sorry for the rant. Signing off now. See the post from Jaime B.

Heyyyyyy, so that was fun! Thanks to all for the thoughtful comments @ral, I accept the challenge: you use a computer to figure out what shape to make the pile of stuff to feed into a VERY BIG mill. Right? @thanbogan I was watching the AM/CP side by side video. They aren't just keeping their arms at their core. They are actively pulling the rope in, and bending their elbows to do that. Although Andy doesn't do it equally on his weak and strong side. (I should probably call him up and let him know I've diagnosed a fault in his technique) So I was thinking WTF are they doing that for? @rico, you are right, they are pulling the handle somewhat higher to keep it as close as possible. @waternut, I don't think you disagree. What you said in your last two paragraphs is exactly the point. Just replace your phrase "as far up on the boat as possible" with "don't lose your speed when you need it most" and we just wrote the same thing. And you are correct, calculating actual gnat's ass correct angular momentum requires two components, the speed with which the skier is rotating about their center of gravity, added to the speed the skier is rotating about a point fixed in space (in this case the "space" is the control volume drawn around the boat and skier, moving at a constant speed with the boat). I left out the speed with which we rotate around our own axis because the angular momentum corresponding to that component is insignificant compared to that resulting from swinging around the pylon. @gregy, you also talk about the two components of momentum, same answer, the spin about our cg is minimal compared to swing at end of rope. The cool thing is as we go from laid out, and ski back to the handle, then lean away from the boat, our CG is moving ever closer to the pylon. The max water velocity we can attain is a factor of strength, form, which result in the ski's minimizing its slip. So if we can keep our cg close to the boat as long as we want velocity, we get to keep the velocity we worked so hard to earn. Where does the reverse C edge change keep our CG? Yep, right up close to the boat. Hmmmmmmm. That sneaky Nate guy....and if we can maximize the effective radius change from full lean to laid out, and do it at the right spot, we can get the maximum effect of this momentum conservation. Sooooo, since it is well past drunkthirty yet again, and in proofing the above it strikes me that I am sounding increasingly pendantic and pompous, I'll sign out now. Thanks to all.

And, this is just another example of the extreme counterintuitive nature of this sport I love to hate. "get wide by staying tight" "get angle by being light on the rope" "turn with the front foot" "pretty girls in swim suits shouldn't be in ski ads". Sometimes it seems like if you are stuck, think about what it seems like you should do, and do the opposite. You'll probably be right more than wrong.

@marcusbrown, Um, to be truthful, if you told me anything I'd say "yessir, that makes a ton of sense" even if it didn't, then I'd spend the next 24x7 madly trying to figure out what you said. But, in this case, yes, it make sense as the skiers center of gravity does move even farther away from the pylon as they switch edges. So probably doubling the effect to a 10% decrease in speed right when you want it most. @shaneH, when you are a 98 lb weakling, turn and lean doesn't work. I grew up with a natural athlete (uncle) as coach and mentor. "get in the zone", "just pull harder" "cut later", "don't think about it, its gotta feel right" never worked for me. Had to get a headache to get in the game.

So, I'm coaching on Saturday, trying to get the skier to keep the handle close to her core. Got me thinking about why this is a good thing. Laws of physics say that angular momentum is conserved. When an ice skater does her spin, she rotates faster as she tucks her arms in. This is because she is decreasing the distance her mass is from the center of her rotation. The formula for angular momentum H=rxmv. r is radius, m is mass, v is velocity. So, assume you've got about a 2 foot reach between handle at core and arms outstretched, butt dragging. The r at 35 off is 40 ft (roughly). So a 2/40 = 5%. This means that as you reach out and drag your butt, you immediately slow down by 5%. BUT, as the rope gets shorter, it matters more. At 41 off, you have a radius of 34ft. 2foot reach/34 =6% slow down, just when you want to be maintaining speed. Cool

@ral, Yeh, even dumb luck if I exceeded the design intent isnt going to help that one. Ive got a topper though: one of the drywall screws backed out of the jump ramp, I hit it, did a 180 landed on my back. Tore the bottom 4 ribs off my sternum, rammed them up over it. I crawled up onto the platform, laid there "sh!t sh!t sh!t sh!t". Stood up, took a deep breath, crunch, they popped back into place. Thought I was ok, leaned on my left arm getting in the boat, crunch, they went back over my sternum. Deep breath, crunch, back in place. The crunches weren't pleasant. Went to ER. Showed the Doc. He said "cool, nurse cmerre, look at this". I declined to crunch for the crowd. My 6 year old went to school next day, says "teacher, my daddy broke all his ribs skiing yesterday". She said, "oh Brian, I'm sure he didn't break all his ribs skiing, how do you know he did? Brian says "Daddy laid on the boat and said "sh!t sh!t sh!t and was crying" Once I healed, we fiberglassed the ramp.

@gregy Ya, I've done that before. I haven't done it since I put the gator mod on. But I doubt it would help that fall.

@marco The gator mod thingy I put on my stealths unexpectedly seems to avoid these sidewinder otfs into the wakes. I've had 4 releases now that turn into a somersault and butt first into the wake

So was it an otf into the wake?

I don't know if skiing healing. But. Unless you are a much better man than I you'll flinch every time you hit the wake and it'll take weeks to get rid of the flinch once you are healed. Sleeping is fun too

@skijay, I too hope he was kidding. Particularly since the only (and limited) success I enjoy in this sport is due to some analysis capabilities that compensate for a big lack of athletic ability. AND, if all I wanted to do was "just go skiing" I wouldn't be reading his site. @Klundell, It would be pretty easy to come up with a device that compared angular velocity with line tension. Or, to be more technically accurate, compared change in angular velocity with line tension. For a given skier, it seems all you as a coach would be looking for would be the improvement, rather then needing an absolute. The absolute numbers would be kind of meaningless to compare between skiers, but seems like the comparison to a given skiers benchmark as he tried technique changes would be pretty dam cool.

@skiJay, I'm not tempted. But I agree its a surprise somebody isn't selling something. But this conversation has helped me put the whole heavy/light on the line thing in the rearview mirror. Always confused the crap out of me. My understanding now is: "heavy" means lots of tension on the rope with not a lot of angular velocity being generated. Somebody posted awhile back a pic of Nate WHALING on the line, along with a Nate quote "when the line goes tight there is nothing light about it". In my mind now, "light" means lots of tension on the rope, but lots of velocity being generated. I think our minds are integrating speed gained with load input and spitting out "light" vs "heavy". Probably wrong, but no longer confused. So the question in my fevered little brain now is: what techniques yield high acceleration at a given line tension?

@skijay, well, its sober o'clock and upon reflection I think this will work. Make a big protractor, tape it to the engine cover. Sight the gopro down at the engine cover. Ski. Replay video, measure angular deflection of rope vs frame rate. Calculate "rpm" of skier around pylon. Angular velocity of skier at 38 off is 2pi37ftXrpmX60/5280= angular velocity in mph. Add that to 34. That's Vt. Calculate your water velocity from the fin frequency. If you are right, and the angle of attack does not change frequency, that's Vw. We'd want Vw/Vt to go down and approach 1. The hydrofoil guys use gopro frame rate to calculate hang time and therefore determine the winner of big air contests.

Its much easier than that. @thanbogan has the tools. Just need a potentiometer on the rope where it connects to the pylon. Use that to measure angular velocity, add the vectors to 34 mph and voila, actual speed. Or, have the gopro sighted down on the pylon, check angular change of rope to boat vs frame rate, calculate angular velocity, add to 34 mph vector, voila, actual speed. Don't want to measure fin frequency, since it will correlate to speed thru water, not actual speed. You'd fool yourself with slip rates, not velocity. Although, pretty interesting piece of data, that slip rate. More means more pull being wasted on slowing the boat, not accelerating the skier. Would coorelate to "heavy on the line" instead of "angle". Also to front foot weighting vs rear foot pulling. I'd bet the closer you get to Nate, the less difference between water velocity and absolute velocity during full pull. Also, its after drunk thirty, so this may all be bs.

Wait. What?! Troopers have RADIOS NOW? Holy moly, I bet soon they'll be using them to coordinate their response to desperados who exceed the speed limit on public highways. If I meet any guys who do stuff like that I'll be sure to let them know of this.

got the '13 today, set up for gatormod stealths. Took it and the '12 down to work, measured fins on $120k worth of optical comparator. Pretty damn close to factory reco. Took them both out to the lake. Skied into 38 on the '12. Popped the stealths off the '12 onto the '13. Ran two passes @ 28. Then back to the dock to let brain recalibrate. Tim took his set, Jim took his. My next set I skied the '13 down into 38 off. Tim decided to try it, (he's on the orange Radar on Fluids) He ran it down into 38. Kinda makes me sick he can switch ski and binding that easy and fast, but my cross to bear. But, he's the second human to ever ski gatormod so kind of cool. So: The 13 is better. It has a higher natural frequency. I'd guess 30% or more. It snarls while the 12 growls. It hits the wakes with a ping, while the 12 is more of a thud. As a result, it is harsher but steadier. On the turn in, first thought is "oh my, this is jerky and unpleasant". But then, its not. It turns sharper, but doesn't slow down as it turns. Again, more harsh, but less midturn fore and aft correction required. For awhile back in the early 2000s I got to drive a mercedes very fast on the autobahn. Up over 150 it seemed to feel like the front tire was folding under the body when you put any amount of g force on it, It would "fold under', delay a tiny bit, then turn. Lately I've been driving a vette very fast. It doesn't fold under. Just drops it's shoulder and carves no matter how fast. Its more harsh then the merc, and if I had to outrun a trooper I'd pick the vette. If I had to run the autobahn all day I'd pick the merc. That's the best I can describe the turn in and wake cross difference between the two skis. You don't have to correct after the delay. Because there is no delay. On my early passes on the 13, I'd get stood up because of the instant turn in and think "ah crap, missed that pass", wrestle it back across course, look up and find that I was early. It seemed to keep grabbing angle no matter how bad I was dragging my butt, turtling up over the handle, or stiff legging the wake. Weird, but super cool. I'm sure I'll figure out how to defeat that advantage soon, but for now, its great. The '12 hunts a little coming into your turn-in to the gates. The 13 does not. It just goes straight, and then seems to roll in smoothly and progressively. Like the difference between a Gecko and a 196. The gecko always seemed to me like it was balanced on a knife edge when it was tracking straight, then seemed to drop off to the side under load, while the 196 seems planted with lift to spare on either side. Also, as you are switching edges, it seems to roll smoother, more analog then digital. Quite comforting for an oldster like myself. The 12 was always a bit of a surprise when it decided to switch. Interestingly, Tim and I were pretty unanimous in our opinions on this ski. Anybody want to buy a '12 prophecy?

@the_Krista, so how'd you break your ankle? OTF at the ball? Front foot?

Chris Swanson. Junior year high school.

@mwetskier, yep, you wouldn't want it stretchy. I'm using 1/8" parachute cord which seems to offer the precision needed. I do the "bend till it hurts, cord get tight?" check every time before I get wet, though, just to be safe. And, @deanoski, I've been using @eleeski trick for years now: Once I get the fin set I scribe it and the ski for depth, angle, fore and aft, and wing angle. If it moves, I see it.

@eleeski: I never feel the lanyard go tight. If you look closely at the pics, there is a piece of stainless shim stock between the actuating portion of the levers and the ski. I know the lanyard got tight and forced a release because the the levers dig a bit of a gouge in the shim stock when they actuate. I buff that gouge with some scotchbrite after a release so I can tell what happens next time. I put the shim in there to protect the ski, then got curious and started using it as forensic evidence. The lanyard needs about 3.5 lbs of tension to force a release. I can't feel that in the heat of battle, and I can't see how that would ever injur my knee. If it was just tied to the back of the plate, without the mech. advantage of the levers, then I'd agree that your concern is valid. I've been skiing with it all spring. No inadvertent releases. My OPINION is that it never will. But, proof is in experience. I can tell you my motto is : I got around one, all I need to do is scramble 5 more and I GOT THIS PASS. A no-risk way to test this on yourself, (I'm not as crazy as some have suggested) is to try a lanyart with..............wait for it...........a frangible link! Take a boot lace, tie it to your knee with a piece of thread strong enough withstand flopping around in the wake. Tie the other end to the back of your rear binding. Adjust the length to get tight when your front ankle is bent far enough that it hurts really bad. Go skiing. See if you ever break the thread. I never did, unless I had a bad fall.

@than_bogan: Ok, I'll trade you one elegant and a effing brilliant (by association) for a Phd. Masters? Or BS like me? Thanks for the kind words at any rate. @Zman: thanks. But, even if it didn't work I was as just as safe as with a standard Stealth, which is pretty good. Adjusting the lanyard is easy. Get in the binding, put the dog collar around my knee, bend my knee until my ankle hurts. Tie knots in the lanyard until it is tight when my ankle hurts. All done. @wish, forgot your other question. The loose boot till stout stop with high cuff is tough to get right..need it to go from floppy to hard in a few degrees of angular displacement. Not much movement even halfway up the shin, so the boot has to really be stiff when it hits the stop. Lots of plastic and expense and custom fitting to make it work. I tried that first.

@than_Bogan: Part of the patent covers mounting any bindings to a common plate, including a full front and RTP. In the case of soft bindings with RTP, I anticipate a "safety strap" that encircles your ankle that you click to fasten around your ankles once your foot is "in" each binding. This ensures both feet stay where they should in a fall, gives the soft binding guys compliance to attenuate their ankles (See @HOrton, I listened) in edge change, gives the RTP guys the option to do the shuck and jive they love with their back heel, yet gets everybody the hell off the ski when the time comes. @wish: I think my lean lock fall is the same as your tip dipper. I didn't think my knee went far forward in these "slapping" falls, but sure seems to. I can't really begin to explain how good it feels to be just sliding through the air instead of the pain you know is coming. I went to FL once to ski with a buddy from up here. He thought it was funny as hell when the look of bliss spread over my face as I jumped into his 80 degree water for the first time, unconsciously expecting the 52 degree crap I deal with up here. Same feeling I get as the slapper goes by:"AHHHHH......oh that didn't hurt". So, THAN, I think we really want off the ski in times of trouble. And, a MIT Phd called my design elegant. I may as well quit, I'll never surpass that. Of course he compared it to putting a barb on a hook, so I should just have quit reading.