gator1

@mattp thanks for the gentle rebuke. (not being sarcastic) I do know of one guy who got hurt with the strapped Reflex, said that the strap held but the front of the boot collapsed onto his arch. But I'm not going to chase him around to get permission to cite him.. So, I retract the statement. I have no proof admisable in court. Also, in my first post on this subject way back, I said that I thought the reflex was the best out there so far, but I can't ski in it because I hate a RTP. Still do think that. And I have no idea as to rate of strapped injuries vs non-strapped. The poll I did on BOS is the only data I have gathered in addition to talking to people. From the theory standpoint, in a "perfect storm" crushing OTF (no force vector other than straight at the toe of your front foot) it doesn't matter if your foot releases a little sooner because somebody put a strap on it. Imagine you are standing with your knees bent on a flat surface, heel to toe, weight mainly on front foot. Somebody drops 1200 lbs directly onto your shoulders (we generate 6gs pretty easily). You'll get smashed to the floor, and on the way your front ankle will get ruined. You don't need a release, you need a stronger ankle. Reflex strap gives you a slightly stronger ankle. Gatormod gives you a lot stronger ankle. I don't know if slightly is enough, or if its plenty. As Than Bogan says, I'm just a simple mech eng. But, my sh!t is always built hellastout. So now my ankle is too.

@rico226 see the gatormod thread I just posted for when you are healed up and ready to go again.

I tore my Achilles and dislocated my peroneal tendon in an OTF two years ago. I've invented and am currently skiing on a modification to releasing bindings that I believe would have prevented my injury. My current binding system, which I'm using with the modification, is a Stealth from Connelly. The mod as it is currently designed will work with any releasing plate binding (Goode, Stealth, Fogman, FM, etc) and the principle will work with any releasing binding. My fall was a crushing OTF. I came around 2 ball @ 38 off, pissed because I was late, and I had just sat in the 52 degree river waiting for some GD wally to quit buzzing the course with his jet ski, prior to which a seaplane had landed in our course. I stuffed the tip, the ski stopped, while pointed sideways to my direction of travel, and momentum crushed me downwards and towards the nose of the ski. As that happened, most of my weight was on my front foot, a little was on my rear foot, and my quads and glutes were unable to conteract the forces created by the momentum of my body. My front knee traveled towards the front tip of the ski, my butt dropped towards my front foot, and as a result my front ankle was forced to flex far beyond its mechanical limits. Something had to give, and in this case it was my Achilles and peroneal tendons. There are two types of OTFs. The benign form of the OTF happens when you and the ski are moving in approximately the same direction, and somehow you screw up and get too much weight forward. Your front leg IS strong enough to withstand the compressive load, your front foot acts as a pivot, your rear foot pulls up on the plate via the rear binding, and you are "peeled" off the ski. Or, you and the ski are peeled off the water: the entire ski comes out of the water tail first, and cartwheels around its nose. The benign form of the OTF most often happens after the turn is complete, the ski is coming up to speed or is already at speed, and thus the bening (peeling) OTF usually happens just before or in the wakes. In contrast, the crushing OTF almost always happens around the ball. Three main instances: Hit the ball, stuff the tip, or skip the tail stuff the tip, or, like me, just stuff the tip. In all cases the ski is travelling relatively slowly, and our body is moving down course while the ski is beginning to, or has just suddenly started to, move cross course. As a result, the crushing phenomena is created by the drastic mismatch in the direction (down course vs cross course) of the skier and the ski. The current releasing binding designs do not release based on the force that is being experienced by the ankle. They release based upon the tensile load that is created at the attachment point between the plate and the ski, be that a bunch of Velcro or a spring loaded pin. Since, in the crushing OTF, there IS NO TENSILE LOAD (or very little), the plate does not release while the ankle is overflexed. This is because the ankle joint and surrounding tendons are not strong enough to create a tensile load on the plate attachment while our weight is being crushed onto the ankle. The lack of a tensile load on the release mechanism in a crushing OTF is the core of the problem. It is why recycling snow ski bindings or clothing attachment fabrics will not protect us. A snow ski binding works with a snow ski boot. Snow ski boots are stiff, and come halfway up the shin. In an OTF on a snow ski, the stiff, high cuff of the boot transfers the load from the shin to the rear of the boot, and the binding clamping the rear of the boot to the ski releases before the shin bone breaks. But, in water skiing, we have to move around on our ski, therefore our boots must allow ankle flex over a wide range of motion. Since the boots can't lock the joint up, they can't use the shin to transfer a releasing force through the boot to the binding. Reflex put a strap on the back of their boot, but it seems the boot still cannot transfer enough force since people are still getting hurt. And with a one boot release we are still at risk from twisting fall injuries. So, we have conflicting requirements: In order to avoid twisting fall injuries, we want both feet locked together on a plate. In order to avoid injury in a crushing OTF, we need a plate design that will release based upon the angle our ankle is being forced to flex into. But we need the plate to hang on even when it is experiencing significant tensile loads, such as when we are approaching a peeling OTF, but have not actually passed the threshold into a peeling OTF (in a successful "lean lock" recovery, or a slightly weight forward wake crossing, relatively large tensile forces are created between the plate and the ski. But we do NOT want to come off the ski) So, the gatormod FORCES A RELEASE in a crushing OTF, whenever the ankle is obout to be overflexed, while letting the plate release as per normal in all other types of falls. Gatormod works by basing the release criteria on the position of the front knee relative to the position of the front ankle. Whenever the front knee has travelled too far ahead of the ankle, and thus overflexed the ankle, the mod creates "synthentic" tensile force between the plate and the ski, thus reducing the force required from the ankle to make the plate release. In its simplest form, a lanyard (oh hell, let us call a spade a spade, its a boot lace) is attached to the skier's leg just above the knee, using a woven nylon attachment device (its a dog collar). The other end of the lanyard is attached to a lever, which is attached to the rear of the plate and is constrained to pivot around an axis parallel to the surface of the plate. The free end of the lever acts on the top surface of the ski, and in essence "pries" the plate off the ski when the lanyard is pulled hard enough by the knee. If the knee continues forward, the lanyard continues to lift the rear of the plate off the ski (via the lever which is attached via the pivoting axle to the plate), thus limiting the maximum angle ever experienced by the ankle. It has the effect of making the ankle joint behave as if the Achilles tendon becomes infinitely strong at the point of over flex. The length of the lanyard is skier-selected (ok, I tied a knot in the bootlace at the right length) to allow the knee and ankle to flex unencumbered until such point as the ankle begins to feel pain from being overflexed. At that point, the lanyard becomes taut. I've found that, in the process of skiing normally (and in my case abnormally), the lanyard never gets tight. It just flops around with the shoelaces on my Stealth boots. I've unintentionally tested it in severe mach schnell lean lock recoveries and never felt it. Only when I am in deep sh!t trouble in a potential OTF does it ever get tight. So far this spring I've run into 38 off with it, and had no interference from the lanyard or levers, and no inadvertent releases. And I have had a couple of high risk crushing OTFs in which the thing worked exactly per design intent. Last night I had an unsuccessful lean lock recovery and crashed into the first wake. In previous years, that type of fall meant at best laying in the water with the wind locked out of me, and worst case a cracked or separated rib. This time, the plate released and I somersaulted into the wake butt first. Sweet. That seems to be the eject mode. In the bad crushing OTFs the guys in the boat say I do a couple of tucked somersaults on the water. The sensation of being slapped onto the water is gone. So, having said all that, the pictures are attached below for anybody who wants to try rigging this up on their plate. I make no representations about how it will work for you, and the description I've written above is only a documentation of my experience with it.

@mattP: HA! Line snow skis makes a Prophet, a pair of which I also have. Gotta stay off the computer after 0:drunk thirty. My '13 PropheCY is supposed to show up tomorrow. Still liking yours? @skibug, thanks.

Well, I think you may be trading on my naivete' on that one.

Got a 2013 coming this week. Anybody have an idea what a 2012, inserted for both Stealth and plate bindings, pristine condition other than under the plate, is worth? Never sold a ski before. 35 years worth, starting with a green and black O'brien competitor, sitting in the basement I could never part with. Old friends. Gave some away to young up and comers, but kept over half of them.

@rico226, so sorry to hear of your crash. I tore my Achilles and also suffered a peroneal subluxation. My brother did his peroneal 6 years ago. Docs casted his for six weeks, no luck. Mine was casted for 3 months with the Achilles, no luck. Both of us had to have the surgery. Its not bad, and heals pretty quickly, compared to wasting two months or more hoping it may repair itself while your leg atrophies. My brother was back skiing in 6 weeks (in hard shells) after the surgery. Mine took forever, but was that was due to having to screw my Achilles back onto my heel. So, I'd have a chat with the doc, and unless they are really confident the sheath will heal I'd go get the surgery right away and maybe salvage part of the season. Once they dremel tool you a new groove it will stay in place. And, bummer. the whole thing just sucks.

Given a choice between obsessing over .001" on fin depth as measured on the 3D Xray machine here at work, or watching a video of myself stinking up the course and comparing that to CP crushing it, I'll almost always chose the fin measurement. I'm hell on wheels at measuring stuff. But, once the fin is set close to factory spec, it'd be a lot more effective to watch the vids. I've got four drivers in my various golf bags. They all work just about the same. One of the guys we ski with sent us emails over the winter. He changed his fin settings. Twice.

U of Illinois is the manly answer, but the real answer is I lusted after a pair of orange Lange ski boots 35 years ago and never got over it.

Well, the factory engineers say the '13 is easier to cast wide at the ball, and easier to get back in front of you and gaining angle after the ball when compared to the '12. They also comment that people who have the '12 won't give the '13 back after trying it. So......I ordered one. Truth be told, it was a done deal once I saw it was orange.

@lpskier, If your elbow stings and burns when its at rest, it could be torn, not just inflamed. If you can find a progressive ortho Doc, you can get an injection of your own blood into the tendon and itll heal itself. If it hurts only under load, find the thread on golfers elbow on BOS. I bought the theraband lots of people recommended, and cant believe how much a $20 chunk of rubber helps. If you already knew all this, sorry, I don't know the lady in CO.

@eleeski, Thanks for the pics and detailed explanation. From the limited tricking I did, it seemed like most trick falls had very little torque or shear forces. Slippery short ski with no rudder meant it either slid out from under me, not needing a binding eject, or I caught an edge and the ski slapped me down like I ran into a trip wire. And I wished for a eject. In the slap down falls my momentum wanted to pull me up off the ski as it caught its edge, headed for the bottom of the river, and stopped moving across the water. Which looks like the fall your design works the best with. And, not the type of fall a reflex responds to optimally. So....nice work. Tougher gig to deal with all the eject force vectors on the slalom though, with all the fin, speed and g-force induced torque and shear. BTW, if you worked in aerospace they'd call your design a "Polymer based frangible link tensile load limiter". Because that's what it is. And maybe some of the guys flipping you crap would be duly impressed with the sound engineering principles you have employed. And with the cajones it takes to test this stuff on yourself.

@mattP have you been skiing on a '12 prophecy?

@horton Well, if I'd know BOS existed, and you had advised me, and I had listened (not super duper at part 3 of that sentence) I'd have bought Wileys instead of the newest-best and I might not have torn my AT. That's what happens when you allow an insurance payment to modify a lifetime of economic conservatism. You need to get all your advertisers to stamp "check out BOS!" on their warranty cards as part of your placement fees. I get your soft binding = soft edge change belief. Tried it, and seems like it'd be another half a season to go back. Since each year is 20% of the remainder of my career I'm gonna stick with what's working now.

@jimbrake: The softer the rubber binding, the less important canting is, IMO. The taller and stiffer bindings need to be lined up with your bone structure, and when you get to hard shells, it has been critical to me. I struggled for two years when I got my ski stolen and had to replace it and bindings with "the latest top of the line" (insurance bought it for me). I'm bowlegged and LFF. Ski would go right after the wakes and go left as I moved to the front of it. My buddies kept telling me I looked "twitchy". Once I canted the bindings, quite a bit, everything smoothed out. Using the washers (or nickels and dimes as per Jaime Beushense post somewhere on BOS) can get you confused, as some of the plates aren't stiff enough and bow under your weight plus 700lbs as you are pulling. @DW, I've tried the snow ski cants. They're from the skinny ski era, and are therefore not long enough. Once I got my required angle figured out (keep stacking washers on dry ground until both bindings line up with your shins), I went down in the basement and got on the trusty Bridgeport and milled up some cants that support the whole plate. Big difference. @Horton: wonder if the whole ski width, edge roll thing is shadowing snow skis: As snow skis got wider and more shaped, they had to change the boots to make them stiffer in side to side, and they had to make bindings wider to give us more leverage in roll.

@AB, that's awesome. But I'm not working on jumpers....... @DW, no roll out date for a product. Pics and drawings good enough to copy will be posted when the patent is filed, which is supposed to be in two weeks. @WISH, that's gotta be the fourth time you've posted the gatoraid lid thingy. What's it mean?

@bruce55 and @skoot1123: Attached photos show phase1, 2 and 3 of my "very smart" marketing 101 campaign. Like I said in the opener to this thread, this has been an interesting process. First pic is one week after OTF, still too swole up to operate. Second pic is a month after OTF, still blissfully ignorant of the the need for pic 3, which is 3.5 months after OTF. I'm afraid you are going to be disappointed if you are expecting a glossy unboxing of a product. I appreciate the kudos, and the good wishes, but in this case you are giving me way too much credit. I yam what I yam, and all I'm doing is what I said. What you are going to see in a couple of weeks is a protoype I hacked together with an old Bridgeport mill, a dremel tool and a section of dog leash. It works great, but its a long way from a product.

@Drago my intention has always been to let/help any individual who wants to copy it do so. Still is. When I found out how many people have been hurt like myself, I started thinking it might have commercial value. So, need a patent filed before I can help in the UNLIKELY event it does have commercial value, and some binding or ski manufacturer wants to commercialize. @Zman, I am skiing on the working model. I modified my size 12 stealths, but it will work on any binding. This is about my third prototype (depending on how you count versions) and it is working GREAT. I also am filing for a patent on the idea. I guess if the paranoia expressed by some ballers is justified there is a rep from a binding company sitting in the woods up here in Spokane with a set of binoculars scoping it out as I ski. I am afraid to make any for anybody. Don't want to get sued. I don't intend to ever make any to sell. It'll either end up a flop and I'll just use it myself, or you guys can make your own, or I'll sell the rights to somebody with a corporation to cover them. I skied like a pansy last year because I was so terrified of OTF and ripping my AT again. With this thing bolted on I'm getting after it again. Feels good.

@horton Enough grumpy. Roger that. I'll post prints/pics when the patent is filed.

@horton, it's a modification that can be made to almost all releasing bindings that seems to eliminate the risk of achilles and ankle injuries in out the front falls. Particularly the kind that happen around the ball due to hitting the ball, stuffing the tip, or skipping the tail out. @shaneH, I don't have to come on here and tell you it is a secret. Several ballers, some of whom have been injured in this type of fall, have asked me to keep them updated on progress with the patent. Happy to do that offline with those particular individuals if online is a problem.:)

Spent some time with the patent attorney yesterday, who BTW runs 28 off. Patent is looking good. I doubt I'll ever make the $10k back out of it, but........ Meanwhile, this has been an interesting process involving the BOS constituancy, with several (including a moderator) expressing varying levels of frustration with my lack of trust in BOS members as evidenced by my holding off on sharing the design. At the same time, other BOS members have gone so far as to call me and warn me about certain manufacturers that have allegedly acted in bad faith to the point of requiring legal action. No conclusions, just some interesting data on our rapidly aging (and enginerd skewed) subculture.

ex-engineer. CEO Keytronic corp.

Trying to decide if going orange is worth it.

@wish, I tore my AT and dislocated my peroneal in a crushing OTF. Been whining about it on BOS for awhile now. Invented a way to "eliminate" the risk of AT damage with a modification to the bindings- "Gatormod". I'm trying to get the patent filed quickly, so those of us who've been hurt have an alternantive, and those of us who don't want to get hurt have a choice. Some ballers are pissed I'm not divulging now, but I'm hustling the lawyers as fast as I can. My whining and explaining is in this thread, and in another one on connelly stealths

Hang in there @tuna. Patent will be applied for on the Gatormod in about 2 weeks. It'll work with your stealths, your fogman, and if you want to put your wileys on a plate it'll work with them, or any of these other failed attempts at solving our AT risk issue. I'll post pics when the application is filed. Got on the water finally last night. Today, it hurts so good. V.2.20 of the gatormod worked flawlessly. Wife still says (imagine pissy falsetto tone for verisimilitude) "it still looks like you made it in the basement". Thought I had cured her of that after she got to spend some of the royalties from previous patents, but some things never change.