bsmith

@BraceMaker the situation you describe should be addressed by allowing older competitors to compete in younger divisions. And such individuals also have the option of competing in the open division. Unfortunately, the slalom ZBS scoring system cannot ever be made perfectly balanced and universal across all divisions and maximum speed settings, so comparing ZBS scores across divisions is not really appropriate in my opinion.

@BraceMaker By all accounts we are seeing that 2 mph does not equal six buoys. The benefit bias is towards skiing the highest speed allowed. For a given level of talent, the average skier will have a higher ZBS score when they do their best at the highest speed allowed. If all divisions were allowed to opt up to 36 mph and have their ZBS score counted at that speed, many older competitors would feel forced to take extra risks at these higher speeds in order to maximize their chances of winning and that is not a good thing. I think every division should have its own age/gender related top speed, and if any competitor wants to ski faster than that, they can, but only receive points as if they skied the top speed allowed in their division. I think the current ZBS system is working well in that the fairly small penalty for skiing slower than your division's allowed top speed has encouraged many skiers to keep competing even though they are at a disadvantage to their competitors who comfortably ski at their division's allowed top speed.

@S1Pitts brings up an interesting point about what negative characteristics appear when you ski on a C75 that is too large for you. With conventional skis where size is controlled primarily by length, you can feel a ski too long for you as being unwieldy and difficult to turn. But in the case of the C75, all models are 65" long. So what do you feel wrong about a C75 too large for you at the speed you want to ski at? Since @adamhcaldwell uses a medium at 34 mph and a small at 36 mph, no doubt, he can feel some slight improvement from dropping a ski size on the C75 when he skis at 36 mph. My guess is that the larger surface area at the higher speeds on an over sized C75 causes the ski to bounce a bit more and not settle in optimally as you head into a turn. That's just my guess, but for all of us considering purchasing a C75, it would be interesting to know what the trade offs are on being under and oversized with a C75. If you are undersized on a C75, I assume the negative issue is the same as with all undersized skis in that you would bog too much through turns.

I think for many of us, it is intuitive to understand how a slalom ski slides and drifts when it is at maximum lean in the middle of a turn. With the ski rolled over and the fin barely in the water, it is easy to see how the ski can slip and drift in that circumstance. On the other hand, it is counter intuitive to think of a ski drifting so much just after center line. When you look at that photo of Mapple, the tip of the ski is out of the water and all the slippage is occurring with the fin deep in the water. And with the ski pointed down course as much as it is, a lot of water pressure is hitting the fin in nearly a perpendicular fashion. From an intuitive perspective you would think that maybe the travel path of the ski would be affected and that the ski would travel narrow to the buoy. But apparently, all that water pressure against the fin is just causing the ski to point more down course even while the ski and skier are traveling on the pendulum path of the rope out to the buoy with no loss of width. It is still just amazing to me that this is what actually happens. But of course, for this phenomena to happen, the skier had to generate high swing speed before center line and had to maintain that swing speed by staying connected and not letting his hands get away from his hips.

No doubt, the 6 buoy delta is just an easy approximation of what the real effect of speed change is on the average ZBS count. If a hard statistical analysis were done, the number might actually be 4.52. Would we really want to use some odd number like that? And is it important to have perfection on equalizing ZBS scores across divisions? I guess within a division, this buoy count difference is important to understand. And it looks like you always want to ski at the max speed your division allows in order to get the best ZBS score possible for a given level of talent. That seems fair to me.

@AdamCord Thanks for the explanation. This makes a lot of sense now and the photos of Cale Burdick illustrate well what you are talking about. Cale definitely has a lot of loaded ski pressure and high cross course angle into the first wake. And has he flies out on the upswing his ski is pointed much more narrow with less cross course angle even while his body and ski are following the pendulum path of the rope that is caused by all the swing speed he generated beforehand. As you mentioned, there is so much momentum involved at this stage along with the ski being held relatively flat, that the orientation of the ski and fin can't do much at all to change the travel path of a well connected skier. That turns out to be an advantage for the skier because he can then influence the ski tip to turn in slightly such that by the time the buoy is reached the ski has already gained a lot of rotation that assists in making a smooth turn. All of us are familiar with how a ski drifts at the buoy such that you can often get the tip around the buoy even with the tip pointed well inside the buoy. What I have learned from your explanation is that this drift actually begins quite distant from the buoy, and that as long as we can stay well connected and following a tight pendulum path out to the buoy, that we can go ahead and allow the tip of our ski to start rotating inward much sooner than we had ever thought possible.

@AdamCord This is probably obvious, but when you say strive to "point down the lake early" you are talking about after you have achieved sufficient width on the buoy, right? I am concerned that the wording of "point your ski down the lake" could be mistaken to mean that right after crossing the CL, it is perfectly fine to let your ski turn in completely downstream parallel to the boat. Of course, that would kill your cross course angle. In all the pictures @Horton posted, those guys are making major efforts to keep their knees pointed cross course which seems like what you want to do. In the picture you posted to illustrate "point the ski down the lake", that skier is already well past CL and much further up in the swing than the skiers in the photos that @Horton posted. Correct me if I am wrong, but what I am taking from from your advice is that if we can stay connected and get ideal width early, then we want to let the ski come around early so that it is pointing down the lake just before we round the buoy.

@horton I know that you don't like to compare current market skis against one another, but in the case of this older model EP could you make some comments about where it falls short against current top of the line skis? For example, does it want to blow the tail out easier or maybe it is much slower in acceleration under load, or maybe it just can't turn as sharp as the current best skis?

@Skoot1123 You sound like a good candidate for @SkiJay's Fin Whispering book as seen here https://finwhispering.com/testimonials-book/ In all your measurements you didn't mention LE or leading edge which is the sum of DFT and fin length. A long fin got you a far out LE which adds tip and works toward making the ski easier to turn, but it also added a lot of fin area which slows turning. The FW book emphasizes using the LE number to get tip behavior right and DFT as a way to affect fin area and get smear right.

@h2onhk I am a reactive driver myself right now, probably because I don't get to ski with many good skiers. If am ever able to drive well for a short line skier, I will need to start practice being proactive with any consistent skier that I come across. Right now, I am sure that I am a harsh, two handed reactive driver that tries to stay centered as best as possible.

In this thread https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/22042/do-you-prefer-the-new-optimized-slalom-rope about the new ML Optimized rope, @Horton mentioned that it took many years for him to be able to feel the difference between different boat driving styles. His point was that when you think that you are feeling the difference between ropes, you may also be feeling a difference in driving styles. My question to @Horton is if we are talking about very competent drivers using modern ZO equipped boats, what are the subtle differences that it took many years for him to be able to detect?

@Horton If it took many years to learn how to feel differences in driving styles while skiing, it sounds like there must be very subtle things involved when comparing competent drivers. Just out of curiosity, what is it that you can feel different when being pulled by drivers who are both tournament rated?

@DavidN Makes sense that an In Tow rope would feel more stiff than an ML optimized rope. And yes, that all black color selection is likely going to cause you to have to discount more to sell it. Although, for those of us who played rugby and revere the New Zealand All Blacks, an all black rope could be appealing on that count.

@DavidN After trying this rope for one set, what is it that you didn't like about it?

@igkya Have you tried an "unloader" knee brace such as from Breg https://www.breg.com/osteoarthritis/ or Ossur https://www.ossur.com/unloader-braces/body-in-motion-nj?utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=oa-knee-bim&utm_source=google&utm_content=unloader-knee-braces&gclid=CjwKCAjwldHsBRAoEiwAd0JybaPYBYGw-BfP473shKH7Jrn2E2IdrfhUKAAEfD4i5hFYzjd4CAQVthoCeCwQAvD_BwE Conventional knee braces are intended to aid joint stability which is not really the problem for an osteoarthritic knee. An OA knee usually has pain on either the medial or lateral side where the bones contact. Most people wear out the articular cartilage on their medial side first while the lateral side still has a good thickness of articular cartilage left on the surface of the bones. This is the case I have and thus an unloader brace for me shifts more load to the lateral side and takes pressure off the medial side which reduces pain. I just learned of these type braces from a post by @Ed_Obermeier here https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/68807 These unloader braces are expensive so I decided to try a used one off ebay for $100 just to see if it would do any good. I found a Ossur Unloader One that was my size. Skied with it yesterday and was very impressed with how well it worked. I finished the session without any noticeable soreness like I usually have. The brace is hinged on one side only and the straps pull toward the hinge side. You can feel the effect of your knee being pressured to spread the side (medial for me) that hurts. I think for these type of braces to help much, you can't already be in a total knee replacement (TKR) condition. You must have one good side left and even your bad side can't be completely bone on bone. My bad side (medial) has a very thin layer of articular cartilage left so it gets sore easily from running and skiing, but I can do lots of other stuff like squats, power cleans, etc. without any pain. In @Ed_Obermeier's case I read where braces and HA injections had all run their course and were providing no more relief such that he was set to get a TKR. I don't think Ed has posted in quite awhile, but I would like to thank him for mentioning the unloader brace in past posts and I hope that his TKR was successful and that he is back skiing again.

I have always thought the faster the ski better because you have the wing to make it decelerate as needed, but there is nothing you can do to make a ski faster. However, I think it was @JackQ that enlightened me about how sometimes there is a problem with a very fast ski in that they can be finnicky to turn even after using all the possible wing and fin adjustments. Some slower skis, however, can turn well no matter how you approach the buoy, and for long pullers like @JackQ a slightly slower ski that turns well under all conditions is preferable over a fast, finicky turning ski.

@Horton Yes, I think skill is involved in that a sports specific muscle learning experience takes place. Something one has never done before, like getting up on a slalom ski, will feel very hard and require a lot of strength in the beginning. But after one month of doing it, it will feel much easier with much less effort required. The new ease of getting up came not from a major strength gain, but primarily from just learning to be efficient at the new task. I am hoping that holding elbows tight to the vest is something similar in that just keeping at it will bring efficiency and less effort required. But I have to tell you that I am a bit worried about that as the act of holding elbows tight doesn't seem to have much skill involved, seems more like a brute force thing. But I am hopeful that is not the case and that it becomes easier with time.

@ski6jones In this thread https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/21077/presenting-whisperfin-1 I made the exact same observation about feeling weak on the outbound side when trying to hold my elbows tight to the vest just past the second wake. Just like you said, it takes a ton of effort to do that. I was thinking ultra strong lats were the key to doing it, but @Than_Bogan suggested that a strong core was the most important ingredient. Either way, major strength and effort are required to accomplish it.

Thanks @Gloersen for posting that article link by Chris Rossi. Rossi definitely backs up @Horton concerning not to use back arm pressure as your focus. (Back arm being your reach arm after load is taken.) Rossi says, "I am talking about the old school thought of lead shoulder away from boat. This requires excessive upper body rotation, which will cause excessive ski angle vs. boat angle before the wakes and a rapid loss of direction through the edge change. We want a 45-degree ski angle vs. boat with increased ski edge angle for sustained direction in the course. Outside hip/ outside hand to handle will leave your shoulders level with your hips forward. Now all you have to do is lean and you will be rewarded with the best wake crossing you can have for the turn you completed." Novices get very quickly that they need to create angle across the course. And the natural way to do that seems to be to turn hard as quickly as you can by rotating the upper body and by dipping the inside shoulder. Rossi admits, ”This will temporarily increase ski angle vs. the wakes but it also heavily loads the rope. The excess load on the rope will take away the extra temporary angle you achieved plus more, leaving you on a straighter/ narrower line than you would have been on." For a novice, the intuitive way to create angle cross course seems to work but when he can't maintain it, he just thinks he is weak or needs a better stack. When a novice is frequently late to the next ball, it is a very hard concept to embrace that more patience through the turn to achieve a better body position when the load hits is the key to achieving real cross course angle.

@jercane Yes, I am sure @Jordan was really directing his comment towards me since I am the one that brought up needing more strength to always keep my elbows close to my vest at all relevant points in the course. Obviously, when reaching towards the pylon at apex your elbows are not close to the vest.

@Than_Bogan I had always thought of core work as ab work and lower back work with conventional exercises like situps, crunches, and stiff legged deadlifts. But you are talking about much more dynamic core work. I looked up the Sergey Bubka movement and that is challenging. I do leg and knee lifts hanging from a bar now, but can I swing my whole lower body up over the bar? Hmmm, if I bend my knees a lot, but not sure I can do it like a pole vaulter does. Will have to make sure my bar grip is really solid before I try that! But I get the point. Try some variations with balance balls, bar hangs, and kettle bells to dynamically stress the core and that type of strength gain should carry over well into water skiing.

@jimbrake "Always carry the load in your toeside arm going into your offside and heelside going into your onside." That was a good one! Ridiculous, but not quite enough for a novice to confidently recognize it as such. @Than_Bogan When I said load from such and such turns I was meaning the load immediately after the turn, not from the turn itself. Thinking about what @6balls said and trying to put his advice in different words not involving trailing or leading arm terminology, I thought maybe we could say to always load the "reach arm" a little more than the other arm when coming under load after a turn. It did make sense to this novice that loading the reaching, extended arm a little more after the turn might help to pull one more forward and over the front of the ski. But then @Horton explains that it is best to "not try to be open but to keep shoulders level & allow your upper torso to be naturally open. The result will be nearly equal load in each hand." I think most skiers feel the load to be relatively equal when the second hand comes onto the handle. Since that is what seems to occur naturally on its own, it is nice not to have to worry about trying to force unbalanced arm loads.

Whew! As a beginner I have to think hard about what toeside and heelside turns mean. But then applying those terms to my arms, that seems a step too far. But if I understand this concept correctly, could we simply say that the lead arm (one closest to centerline) should always carry the majority of the load for any turn?

I am with you on that @Than_Bogan Since about mid summer I have added deadlifts and power cleans to my weightlifting routines. I was already doing heavy squats, benches, etc. but I have added a lot more lifting exercises now that I am running the course. Free skiing didn't seem to tax me near so much. I know people say that skiing is more about technique than strength, but what I am seeing both with kids and large athletic people is that you need a certain strength to weight ratio to ski well. Kids are light, but their strength is limited. Big athletes, like a college football player, are strong but their weight makes it where extreme strength is required to ski well. As an ex college football and rugby player at 200 pounds, I am seeing that more strength combined with weight loss would be the ideal approach to fast improvement.

@jercane Yes, at long line it is easy to pull too long. But what I am talking about being difficult on keeping elbows to the vest is when you do cut through the wakes hard and try to edge change properly and stay connected on the glide out to the buoy, there you want your elbows tucked to your side even while there is a lot of centrifugal force on you with the ski flat. In trying to follow the general advice of holding onto the handle with two hands for a long time before dropping the outside hand, that's where I find my elbows getting pulled away from my vest frequently.