outside shoulder

[Horton]

There are a 3  kinds of skiers (from my prospective). There are the guys who hear about a new technique or piece of coaching and just try it. There are the guys who strive to understand why and how it all works. There are the lucky guys who live in happy oblivion. I am the second kind of skier and that is why BallOfSpray is here. It is also why what happened to me tonight is so interesting to me.

In the last few years I have worked on a number of approaches to being taller on the ski from the wake to the ball  - - less lean into the course. Tonight instead of thinking about my inside shoulder or head, I tried to keep my outside shoulder over my bindings on the way out. Freaking awesome! It kept me tall and made me carry out far more them I am used to. For some reason thinking about my outside shoulder brought my spine closer to vertical and let my ski sweep under.

[auskier]

good point, i think most people on here would fit into the second category. 

im a little confused John. do you mean you are trying to stay upright on the ski until a later point before you  release, counter and let your ski cast out from under you? but still letting your lower body edge change the ski?

[Horton]

Dawg,

Can you answer auskier . . . I am lacking the words . . .

[skidawg]

after pro shootout!

[Old MS Accout]

Dawgs got another tough day at the office going on.  

[Marco]

It sounds to me like you are describing what I try to do with the thought process of angulating at the hips and keeping level shoulders as your ski releases to the outside.  I like your concept of thinking instead about the outside shoulder over the bindings.  I'll give it a try tomorrow and see what happens.

[skidawg]

JTH, u da man, tried it at lunch, it kills.

[tsixam]

Ok I give in.

I hate to admit it, I don´t understand. Can someone please explain what you are doing?

 

Tsixam

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

I hate trying to explain this stuff in a hurry but I will see if I can make sense out of it and then maybe someone smarter will pile on. Where is Butternut when I need him?

I think that we all agree that leaning into the course rolls does a number of things we want to stop or retard. An old school skier would drop their inside shoulder in the preturn in an effort to get the ski on to a more aggressive edge. Modern doctrine says that by keeping your upper body more vertical, the ski will be "flatter" in the preturn. This will allow the ski to keep heading away from the center of the course longer.  As we now know the longer the ski is heading out the easier it is to get the ski to change direction at the right time.  In addition to not forcing the ski to roll in, less body lean also facilitates hip and shoulder counter rotation. If you lean way in and then counter, all you are doing is looking silly.

So to lean in less I have tried a lot of things. I tried just keeping my chin up from the wake to the ball. I tried to think about keeping my inside shoulder high. I have tried all kinds of stuff.

What I was doing yesterday is really the same but just a different way to think about it. I was thinking about where my outside shoulder is in relation to my feet. To take it to the next level you might try to actually lean out of the turn. 2/4/6 try to lean shoulders left. Think highside motor cycle crash. This is an exaggeration but may be worth a try.

With my spine closer to perpendicular to the water, concepts like hip counter rotation have a lot more value.

Ok I wrote this in the time it took to eat a chicken salad and drink ½  a diet RockStar so if it does not make sense let me know.   Back to work.

[RS]

I'm confused and I think I actually understood your first post better.  

Is it similar to keeping your shoulders level and facing downcourse from the wake to the buoy line?

 

[Horton]

Yea .  ..  more about a way to think about to keep my shoulders and upper body from falling in. The counter is made easier by this but it is a another issue. This is new to me so I am sort of makeing it up but I can tell you that by trying to keep my outside shoulder a far from the center line as I could made a big diff. Again on 2/4/6 try to keep your left shoulder as far left as you can . . .

Anyone else what to try to explain this . . . I know Dawg The Bouy Hunter tried it yesterday and skied like a champ. 

[RS]

Hmmm...I guess I'm trying to figure out just exactly where you are at in the course when you think of this.  Are you coming off the 2nd wake, 10 feet off the 2nd wake or almost out to the buoy line? 

So you are trying to keep your left shoulder as far left toward the shoreline as you can from the wake out to the buoy line?  That doesn't sound right though if you are trying to keep that shoulder out over your binding and letting the ski pass under.

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[Horton]

Ok sorry . . . .

Yea from the second wake to the ball. As much and as long as you can. I am sure it is possible to do it too much but I think that would be pretty hard to do.

Consider the below photo from the D3 web site. MB is at short rope and right before the hook up but his shoulders are more level them 99.99999% of us. Considering where he is, his spine is pretty darn vertical. I suspect that he might say that his shoulders should be even more level.

http://www.d3skis.com/images/newer/2007Products/Slalom/Athletes/MarcusBrown2.jpg

[tsixam]

I am not 100% with you yet.  Schnitz is talking a lot of dropping in. Shoulders level, edging from hips and down. You are trying to keep this position from wake to ball?  Tsixam

[auskier]

ok sweet i follow now, very much a west coast concept.

no doubt that photo of maucus is awesome, on his onside his shoulders would be level for sure at the same point. MB looked awesome at the shootout (all because of the hair im sure /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif), the west coasters were killing it! t-wisper into his 6th 38!!! i couldnt run my first pass 6 times spinnin let alone one of my hardest, awesome stuff.

sully and marcus even answered one of my questions i sent in!

[skidawg]

JTH is trying to keep his body moving out with his ski, you have to move your feet out, but at the same time you can't leave your upper body in (you will fall inside the line).  By moving your outside shoulder out (i like to think -Rotate out) or moving your upper body over with the ski, you keep the ski moving out (width) which lets you stay ontop of your ski (i.e. off back foot) carve better turns with more speed and angle and drop in more efficiently.

[Horton]

Darn!  Now that Dawg the Buoy Killer explained it, I do not know what I am doing either.

[skidawg]

Don't let my interpretation twist ya up!  Keep doin what your doin, That was just my random thoughts from my last swerve!

[merlin]

skidawg is absolutely correct, you gotta keep your upper body going out as the ski swings underneath.  but, in order to optimize this you have to get enough speed early to facilitate an early edgechange.  If you are still pressing with stiff legs passed the second wake on the cutting edge, you will not be able to do what skidawg depicted.  JTH, Marcus and I were messing around on here and we saw your 35 passes video.  On all your passes but one, your edgechange came at least 10 feet too late....the "me 35's again" video was nearly perfect...your cuts were much quicker and shorter and I believe it started at the gate where you didn't rush the turn as much as you did on your other starts.  I don't know when this video is from but the "me 35's again" pass looked great and with a little tweaking you should be knocking down 38's regularly!!

[tsixam]

I am still scratching my head. What JTH is doing, can it be explained as counter rotation? To me it sounds like he is starting to counter rotate much earlier than before. Not just in the turn but already at the second wake and all the way out.

 

Tsixam

[Horton]

With the boat going south and the ski heading south east off the left wake (left from the drivers perspective) I am trying to keep my torso from falling west in relation to the ski. By thinking that there is a race to get east between the ski and my left shoulder I am actually decreasing the skis deceleration and increasing its travel in the eastward direction. This is totally in addition to any horizontal hip or shoulder rotation.

In English? Ok seriously. I am just trying to lean in as little as possible from the wake to the ball.  Same idea as Head up or stand up or be tall or … all the counter rotation in the world is useless if you are leaned way in.

Picture of MB above is good. Photo of JD below is bad.

http://www.ktvb.com/images/newsteam/larry1.jpg

[tsixam]

" I am just trying to lean in as little as possible from the wake to the ball.  Same idea as Head up or stand up or be tall or … " Perfect, now even I understand. /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif

Tsixam

[Horton]

Here is the kicker . . .  there are a number of ways to think about it and for me and a number of skiers I know, thinking about the outside shoulder works much better then thinking about the inside shoulder. It is all the same on shore but for some reason  . . . . .

[RS]

Ok...I tried it and I like focusing on the shoulder instead of which butt cheek is lower.   

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