Radar RS-1

[HO 410]

Anyone on the water get a chance to ski the new RS-1 boots?

A rundown of feel, function, and build quality would be greatly appreciated.  

[Director Darwin]

I have a pair coming to my lake.  Should be here sometime next week.  Several of us will test them out.  We have an assortment of boot combinations on our lake (Powershells, Reflex, HO, D3, Fluid Motion) so the feedback should be interesting. 

[RichardDoane]

The RS-1's are the most comfortable hardshell boots I've skied. I've had Powershells and Fogmans, but the Radar boots are superior, not only in comfort, but there are no buckles to have problems with, or velcro to bang on. They are also good for keeping your feet warm this time of year - the water temp is still below 50' F. When properly fit and adjusted, you'll never have cramped feet again.

[Horton]

There are 4 sets of RS-1s at waiting for me when I get home from Vegas this week! I can hardly wait. Unless it is butt ass cold I will try them out Friday. 

 Yes Joe and who ever else ordered though me, yours will ship to you this weekend.

[RichardDoane]

Define "Butt-Ass cold"

[Horton]

Well. . . . truth is that it is more about wind this weekend. Butt Ass Cold? Air less then 60 and water less then 50. Yea I know a lot of you just soiled yourselves over what a puss I am. I ski 9 months a year so why use a dry suit?

[RichardDoane]

That way you could ski the other 3

[Horton]

cold

[Horton]

I have 3 sets on my RS-1 bindings. It is a bit of a transition from rubber but I think the RS-1 is the binding of the future. The comfort and control is unreal. I was a bit worried about safety but now that I have used them I feel as safe as I do in anything. As hardshells go they have to be the safest out there.

[LZywicki1]

John, gald to hear good things about the bindings, they sound as good as the ad makes them out to be .  Can't wait for them to show up at he door, get them mounted up on the ski , and have the lake thaw.

[Horton]

I really hate to buy into hype but  . . . . I think the RS-1 is the real deal.

[Horton]

Now we just need to find out what RS-1 stands for . . .

[Ed_Obermeier]

What's your feelings on the release issue?  Done any "test" OTF's yet?

[RichardDoane]

I've taken one big ragdoll after hitting the 6 ball @ -35, I think it was three times around.  Ski stayed on, which is what I prefer.  Eddie took a pretty big crash yesterday, boots stayed on and he was fine.  I've got a pretty good picture of his "ball of spray" !  I think it's better to not come out, so I tie my laces pretty tight.

[RichardDoane]

RS-1 stands for "Radar Skis are #1"

 

[ScarletArrow]

Help me understand how you can tighten the bindings enought to feel comfortable, and, at the same time, have them loose enough to allows the liners to release with you still in them?

I've only seen the RS-1's once...of what is the material that the RS-1 made?  Do you think it's durable enough to last more than a couple of seasons?

[Director Darwin]

From those who have seen/skied them, the opinions I've heard is that the bindings look very sturdy and should last many seasons.  I'll provide my insight once I've had the opportunity to inspect them.

My main interest in the bindings beyond the performance characteristics is the fact that they are made specifically for WATER SKIING.  No other hardshell system is designed primarily for water ski applications.  All others seem to rust, crack and generally fall apart after a period of time.  I have a hybrid set-up using Fluid Motion boots.  Although I feel they are the best for my particular needs, they are not water ski boots.  They began to show signs of rust within 2 weeks of use.  I have resigned myself to the fact that the binding systems currently available are "borrowed" from either snow skiing, ice hockey or rollerblading.   The release mechanisms are borrowed as well and tend to lose functionality if not critically maintained and have a "pass/fail" ratio that does not instill confidence.  The RS-1 system was designed from the ground up for water skiing application.  THAT is what makes this system unique and IF they live up to the hype, Radar will dominate the binding market for the foreseeable future.  

[Horton]

Scarlet,

These boots are a lot like a skate shoe. You lace them up enough to hold your foot in place but there is enough give to get out. It is the same idea as with rubber bindings but it is just better thought out. As for construction: they are all synth rubbery/nylon stuff that I think we got from the aliens when they landed in Roswell. Ok think skate shoe with hard plastic soul.

The key is that the sides of the boot are stiff as is the sides of the liner so the laces do not have to be super tight for you to have control. If you want to crank them down then that will also work but you will not come out as easy.

honestly I think these bindings may be the best thing I have seen in years.

[DW]

The key to the human to ski separation with the Radar boots is the interface between the inner liner and the outer liner of the Radar boot.  It is a controlled frictional interface done by the manufacturer so it should be consistent relative to that aspect.  The lace tightness may alter the release characteristics.

[Chuck_Dickey]

When I saw them at the IST-2008 they were bungie type laces and if you wanted a bit of a tighter feel they have lace hooks like a hiking boot  and the higher up the hooks you go the more snug the feel. 

The release = There is low friction material sewn on the inner liner at key points which allows your foot and the liner to slide out of the shell in a hard fall. The bungie laces stretch allowing the outer shell to expand as your foot and liner slide out.  Still looked to me as a possible situation where one foot could stay in while the other could come out.

No chance of a pre-release on the RS-1, which I'd like, but which would be worse, possible pre-release on powershells or one foot in and one foot out on the RS-1 ?

Still, I would like to try them!

[aguylikeshark]

First time login......I got a pr. of the radars coming this week. I'll be able to evaluate the release pretty quick just on land.  However if you close the boot off above the top of the foot, you will seriously start to impede exit from the shell. Personally I can't see the two co-existing - proper liner compression and enough expansion for easy exit, but I could be surprised.  In order to get a performance fit from the liner the foam has to be compressed and getting enough pressure from thin bungies??  We are using 3/16 shock cord on the E and this feels adequate. A  buckle will at least double the closure pressure of a  shock cord.

Joe  - we don't use "hockey "boots at all. Our shells come from aggressive inline manufacturer and are an FM design  = tough but pliable. I could make changes to the resin, graphics, but molds I decided not to since the season was on us. So we make the mods ourselves. The buckle springs rust in dirty water - so we have urethane option, and the cuff bolts are steel.  I know they will start to rust a bit, but I am thinking we should just paint them right from the start.

Skiing is super close to inline skating with a bit of a twist. That is why the boots work - and we have a couple of world records to back that up. Slalom does not = hockey, that is a different world altogether. A competition hockey skate is far more senstive than a slalom boot will ever be!

The release pin. I mean we could re-brand it but I see no reason to spend $. Lube it every month and it's consistent as can be. I estimate there is  getting close to 100,000 passes on the release pin.  Only real problem is it sits over the HO inserts. 

[Horton]

I have to tell you guys that the RS-1s seem to defy conventional logic. The more I use them the more I like them. The crazy part is that I am using them looser and looser the more I ski with them. With the lower laces tight but not cranked and the upper lace cinched “just enough” I can lift my heel if I try (like in Rubber) but I have more control them I am used to. There is not a feel of being constricted that I have felt in the past with Powershells or SkiTek boots.

 

I can see that if a skier really cranks down the top lace the release would be tough but with a little judgment I feel safe. I assume that when I get around to cooking the liner and adding SuperFeet the boots will be better still.

[SkiRV]

John,

Fit improves a LOT after molding and adding Superfeet and your seems even more connected. I can still lift my heels a little, while going around the turn island. Haven't taken a bad fall in them yet, but the liners release from the shells quite easily, without loosening the bungee, when I take the ski off.

[aguylikeshark]

Got a set here on Thursday. Did my standard OTF test to the point where I started to lift my ballast, and no release. I will come out if the two top hooks are completely undone and I use just the lower laces. ...the boots are too way to loose for me like that.   

Also  restrictive forward and especially to the back. A lot of skiers will not like this because you won't be able to get behind the ski or advance the ski through the wakes.  The shells may breakin and get more flexible, but then you'll be looking for more from the lace system.

http://www.jagersport.com/Images/ER1andEseries.jpg

[Roger]

 

quote from: aguylikeshark

 

"Got a set here on Thursday. Did my standard OTF test to the point where I started to lift my ballast, and no release. I will come out if the two top hooks are completely undone and I use just the lower laces. ...the boots are too way to loose for me like that.    "

I just tried a set of these this weekend, one set on an MPD (that I don't ski on) and one set on my own Fischer. When I completed my first set with the laces fully tight, I forced myself OUT THE FRONT with no problem at all (and I had the laces on the hooks and fully tight).

"It's like trying to get a pair of hiking boots off without undoing the laces.   Simple mechanics. "

You couldn't be more wrong, it was quite easy to eject forward. In fact the dealer took an intentional fall out the front after one of his sets and he came right out of the ski (he also uses the hooks).

"Also very restrictive forward and especially to the back. A lot of skiers will not like this because you won't be able to get behind the ski or advance the ski through the wakes.  The shells may breakin and get more flexible, but then you'll be looking for more from the lace system. "

Compared to what? I have tried the Goode and Fogman bindings and I'd have to say the forward aft movement is similar and certainly comparable to the Obrien BIO boot I currently use.

"The floating plate fixtures are made of alum, high friction, so when seriously loaded up in a turn I doubt the plate will float as intended.  There are other issues with regard to the plate system but this will all shake out as skiers start to increase their duty cycle."

Wrong again. The screws go through the standoff and then through a teflon washer before going into the ski. Any flexing of the ski will not be hindered by the attachment system (assuming you used all the parts).

 

Now for my own assessment:

I skied pretty badly on the MDP taking 4 passes before I could run a 28. Ran a couple of more and came in. However, I was impressed by the confort and the release when I forced my feet out of the fully laced and tightened shells.

Today I attached the system to my Fischer and of course skied much better since I'm used to that ski. I did 4 28s and 2 32s. Between passes, I loosened the rear binding about one adjuster length and the front one about 1/2 adjuster length. Like, John said, the looser I went the  better it seemed to feel (I think this is a good thing).

Comfort was very good and of course no soap needed. The liners felt good and would probably only get better with molding.

Bad things: The front adjuster laces have some issues. The little end piece came off both of them (one was nearly off already). Also, the front adjuster knob had been lost on someone elses set and the little toothed disk that holds the laces could easily be lost without it. The dealer who brought the system out said the company is looking for feedback and he will report this. He also said replacement parts are already available and should not be an issue if needed.

Overall, I liked that setup more than any other hard shell system I've tried (Goode and Fogman) and I believe it to be the safest system I've seen yet though time will tell on that and no system is bullit proof IMO.

 

 

[Director Darwin]

Roger:  Thanks for the feedback.  I have a pair coming this week and will provide analysis by the weekend. 

What binding system are you currently using?  I use Fluid Motion boots mounted to a G-10 plate secured by dual loc.  Thanks. 

[Horton]

RS-1 Notes from this weekend.

I tried SuperFeet and they feels great but I think they change the release characteristics too much. I think the extra stiffness underfoot and or the extra volume changes everything. If you are one of those skiers that just wants to stay with the ski I think SuperFeet are great but I am going to have to find a pair of shoes for the pair I purchased last week. Maybe a thinner or not so stuff arch would be nice.

 

As for release, the only issue I have is finding the same level of tightness from set to set. I was very pleased with both sets yesterday and was able to just pull the ski off with out loosening the laces.  I think with time I will find a way to cinch up the same way every time. (Remember that my front ankle is trash and I am very worried about release.)

 

As for stiffness, coming from Wiley’s, RS-1s threw me for a loop for the first few sets. Now am totally at home and think my control is way better then it was in rubber. The front to back flex was a worry but now I see that it not an issue at all.

 

I think RS-1 bindings are so new and different that skiers need to adjust a little. I do think that they are the binding of the future.

[Roger]

jdarwin: I have an Obrien BIO (the older model originally orange, then gray) front and a wiley HO pattern rear mounted in the usual mannor on my Fischer. When I swiched from double Contacts to the double BIO it wasn't long before I could not stand to wear the rear BIO for very long, so I switched to the wiley for comfort. However this brought concerns of releasing from the Wiley but not the BIO. Most of my falls with double BIOs were both in with just a couple where I came out of both. The Radar system is the first hard shell system I've seen that makes me feel comfortable that I will release in a forced out the front situation under heavy load*. It is also the first one I've tried where I could ski reasonably well right off the dock. With the Goode and Fogman systems, it seemed I was riding the back of the ski for several sets before I could center my weight. With the RS1 on my ski, I was able to run comfortable (but still not as good as with my rubber boots, adjustment and time needed) 28s and 32s the first set (I didn't try 35 but would have if I'd had another set available on them).

* By heavy load, I mean deep in the turn and hitting the buoy or burying the front. The ski is well flexed at this point and I believe this is why some people have had their Fogman bindings not release since with the ski in a flexed state, the two connection points are closer together applying more tension than normal to the release system.

John: I thought the boots felt pretty comfortable without any additional inserts anyway. As for getting the same setting on the laces everytime, I suppose you could mark them with something. When I came in after my last set, I did reach down and loosen the upper lace and I think I would always do this to reduce the wear on the lace system (plus it's a lot easier to get your feet out).

 

[Horton]

I am looking for the level of tightness with the laces where I can just get out without losening.

[ScarletArrow]

Darwin - what is a G-10 plate? (sorry if off topic)

[Horton]

G10 = tough fiberglass. Same as Goode plate and Reflex "Carbon" plate.

[SkiRV]

I know Eddie Roberts added these 3/4 Superfeet dress insoles under the liners, in his own setup

 http://www.superfeet.com/products/Men_s_3_4.aspx

[aguylikeshark]

Roger - My plate arrived and was as per the exploded diagram:  the binding plate rests on machined aluminum "neck washers".This has a high coeff of friction, esp under load, for the plate to slide. .  The little opaque plastic washer has no contact with the plate. There is a larger plastic lock washer but that is on the top of the plate. 

[sjholbert]

The reason I went to hardshells was because I want both my feet to release at the same time.  I once broke my ankle in standard neoprene boots when one foot came out, the other didn't and the ski twisted.  What I understand from this discussion is the Radar release is really no different than the standard boot release and doesn't address this issue.

[Horton]

SJ,

First of all welcome to BallOfSpray.

I think your assessment of the RS-1 is largely correct. They offer friction retention like rubber bindings. I suppose in a violent fall one foot could come out and the other could stay in but I think that would be unlikely since both feet are held in with the same level of force.

In this sport we have a number of imperfect solutions to the same problem.

Most of the rubber or EVA bindings achieve both retention and control with additional tightness. It is my opinion that the open toe design trend makes this worse. With an open toe, the binding has to be tighter over the top of the foot to keep your foot from moving forward or backward. In the classic ankle break fall where the skier hits the ball, the front foot slides forward and becomes trapped under the wrap while the heel of the back foot comes up and free. Some of the newer open toe bindings are so rigid (Approach, Driver, Draft  . . .  ) and inelastic that release is nearly impossible. I do think the D3 Custom is by far the best of the modern open toe rubber bindings. I will not ski in any rubber bindings that I can not take off without loosening laces.

Wiley’s are a close toe solution that I really believe in. If the binding is sized right, forward slippage is not an issue. There is just no room for your foot to travel forward. The problem is that to achieve enough stiffness and control, most Wiley users add wraps and crank them down like a jump binding. In the past I have heavily modified my Wiley’s to be stiffer without being tighter. In terms of pure safety I think my custom Wiley’s may be unrivaled.  

As for the world of hard shells you again have a mix of compromises. Each system has its fans. With any mechanical release system there are going to be unknowns. I have used ARC (back in the day), SkiTec, home made SkiTec and PowerShells. None of these systems gave me confidence that they would stay on the ski when they should and release when they should. If you think about it that is a very tall order. I think shells are getting better and the Jager “E” system is the first interesting idea I have seen in a while.

All this said why am I using the RS-1? With a “Shoe Like” close toe design they do not need to be overly tight to keep my foot from moving and they are plenty stiff enough around my heel and ankle bone for high performance. If I lace them up right I can ski in comfort, have all the control I need and at the end of my ride just pull the ski off.  Using the laces and getting them right requires a learning curve and is not prefect but too me it is the right compromise. Like any binding system (HardShell or Rubber) if you crank them super tight I do not think they are safe. Personally I can have RS-1 boots loose enough to lift my heel pretty easy and still feel like I have more control then any rubber binding.  I am not skiing that loose but almost . . .                     And I am skiing good in them. 

[Hoover]

 Brent,

If you truly intend to be a Guinea Pig, consider these comments from Paul Jager to me at the end of last summer when I inquired about the E system.  I was on Quattros and was looking for something with a little more give. 

 

"Keep in mind that the E is intended to be an entry-leveldeal. We are
designing this system as a lower price point, keep it simple stupid kind of
thing. The fit is not near as exact, and is missing that high-end quality
feel to the fit that our current D66 system provides. Because of the closure
system, the fit is going to be more loose, and getting into them is a
downgrade as well. So personally I don't think I will be using the E day to
day.

Regards,

Paul Jager"

postamble();

[Horton]

I would Pay for a really good face plant video.

[disland]

Has anyone tried or considered an RS-1 front with an RTP. Or maybe since I have heard the RS-1 is not as stiff as a hardshell the transition from an RTP wouldnt be a drastic as it would be otherwise. Can the back boot be lossened enough to let the foot come up and move around like it does on an RTP?

[aguylikeshark]

 

Rubber holds your foot in by compression. It releases by undergoing an expansion. and as mentioned there is friction impeding the entry and exit .  The higher or deeper the boot, more expansion/deforming is required - this is the big problem.

The reason there is a lot of  one-foot-in injuries in these types of boots is  the way in which the feet exit. The rear leg is at say a 45 deg, and unloaded, all force directed at lifting the heel up and out. The front leg is 100% loaded, sliding into the toe of boot, at less of an angle, and less force is directed at lifting the heel. So the back comes out and all hell can break loose, esp if there is a twisting because the leg/knee is not good at withstanding a twist while loaded up.  http://www.jagersport.com/images/e_collage_body.JPG

the E got revised in Feb using a breakway cuff instead of a strap connected to liners. So doing them up is pretty close to just a regular buckled boot now, and there is more support up top. they feel great. We might also come up with an expandable buckle strap which would delete the bungie lacing system - got some really nice cord locks for those too.  So overall less $, easier to use and an awesome fit.

I'll mountem' to my Warp 8 which just got in the door. cool. 

[Hoover]

Paul,

 

Now that you have revised the E series, what would I need to convert my Quattros to E series and how much would it cost. I assume elastic laces, the break away cuff, and metal plates?

[aguylikeshark]

I thought of your request after getting the design down.  Just a few parts but some mods are required.  Laces, cord locks, bolts/washers, retention pads, modified cuffs, and instructions to modify the lower shells.  Plate or plates. If you have the FMX plate, go straight on.  

You might try E-Spec on your current system before going to the explosion bolted cuffs. This will give a lot more movement in the boot and you can "back-out" on the upgrade. The liners and boots soften up through use, and get really sweet.  Boots last a long time, years and years.

 Still mulling over what to put on this puppy.  This ski is something else.

http://www.jagersport.com/images/bodyimage.jpg

[SM]

"I'll mountem' to my Warp 8 which just got in the door. cool. Brent here are E's , shipping to Scott on Monday. "

Does that mean that you need us to test out the warp 8 at the same time?  /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif  It seems to me that it would be beneficial to test it in warm South Florida water to create data for the fin charts.  Yeah, that's the ticket!

 Actually, I'd be afraid to try the Warp.  Not for fear of damaging or losing it, but for fear of liking it.  $4000 is too much money for a ski for me.

 Hey Paul, you might want to consider my $5 double stick tape instead of DualLock for mounting those bindings.  If you're not moving the bindings around, it's way more secure and way cheaper than dual lock.

 

Scott

[Horton]

I rounded 100 consecutive balls Friday and another 100 Saturday with the RS-1s. Any doubts I had are now gone. Getting tightness consistent still worries me but as they break in it seems like it is getting easier. I tend to error on the side of loose/safe but I felt confident and in control enough to run six 35s in a row yesterday.  I have found the point where I feel good skiing and I can get out without loosening the laces.  I would have gone for 100 balls at 32 today but it is windy and there is a race on TV.

[jlittle]

So you skied "X" amount of sets and rounded a 100 balls.  Why did you stand up at 4 ball on your 17th pass? /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif

[Horton]

Friday I rounded # 100, skied to the wakes, dropped the handle and cryed in pain.

Saterday I went ahead and ran 102. The trick is to ski 10 passes the first ride so I only needed 7 the second ride.

[Horton]

You guys think the whole floating plate thing is for real. I spoke to ER yesterday and he was telling me I need to use the washer/spacer with my RS-1.

[RichardDoane]

I've been using the spacer washers under the rear, but using the Approach rear aluminum piece on top. Keep an eye on your back of your plate to see if you start to get upward bending.

[Horton]

I have heard some plates are bending. I hthink the next batch will have a slightly thicker plate. Kind of a shame considering how light the whole system is.

[RichardDoane]

My prototype plate was aluminum (uncolored) and was .100", the new Black plates with the graphics are .125".  But I've seen some bend in a Black plate after a serious crash by ER.  That's why it's always so critical to check your gear before every set.

[andyb]

Is there anyone that has tested the RS-1 with a rtp ? I see that disland also asked the question. My draft boot has just broken again, so I have ordered a rs-1 with rtp. But unsure as most of you seem to be double boot. I have a secondhand reflex boot which I picked up last year so I'm going to be using this until the rs-1 arrives which could be a long time, to reach the UK. I tried the reflex last year but was very nervous and even more nervous now as I don't have a rubber boot to fall back on. John you had a injury from a reflex..? Was this from a double boot system ?