RS-1 Bindings Vs FM E-Series Safety

[PSM]

I'm sorry to be another beater of this horse, but new bindings have come up on myself and training partner's radar again and additional intell is needed.  Performance isn't a question, but can anyone provide more feedback on witnessed safe releases from the subject systems?  Seems like the RS-1's have plenty of documented releases, but also some ankle injuries (mainly due to laces being too tight is the theory).  Are a lot folks coming out of when the laces are "just snug" or "loose enough that the ski can be pulled off without un-cinching them"?

How about the the E-Series?  They are new and I can't find too many opinions out there, and we're curious if people have been releasing from them also when they need to?  Having a couple ankle surgies prior, one of the concerns in that the joint can't take the stress required to stretch the bungies and cause release.  On the other hand, we really like the fact that pre-releases are avoided in both systems.  Thanks in advance for the info.

[Roger]

I have come out of my RS-1 bindings a few times and stayed in a few times. In both cases, I was happy with the outcome. I wear my laces past snug but with some elasticity left in the laces. This is key to their realeasing.

I have looked over the E-Series and (just from looking) it looks to me like they would also release properly. Both systems offer the benifit of no pre-release possibility which is one of the reasons I chose the RS-1 system 2 years ago.

My RS-1 boots just turned 2 and they are still in very good shape. There is nothing to corrode or rust and normal maintenance would be to change the bushings the plate rides on about every 4 months (8 sets/week) and maybe replace an elastic lace if it wears out (I have replaced one lace end cap and no laces yet). I bought a 2nd set of RS-1 boots and plate at Nationals for backup. I lent this system to a Big Dawg skier who wanted to try them (coming off Connelly rubber). He ran 2 @ 41 his 2nd set and would not give them back (ordered me a new set instead).

 

[PSM]

Good info, Roger.  Thanks.  To clarify, the fall that is most concerning to us (and what produced injury in the past) is either the offside turn tail blow-out, or the offside turn stuff the tip then stall.  That is when we need the foot to come out, most importantly the front.

A good answer is, well, don't do those things then, but I guess we all get in trouble sometimes.

[HO 410]

There's an archived thread entitled "magic bindings" In a nutshell, ski bindings do two things. They keep you on the ski, and they transfer your movements to the ski. With rubber boots those two factors are directly linked: in order to increase stiffness you much increase retention to the ski. I know first hand that the RS-1/Strada boots effectively separate lateral stiffens from retention to the ski. The E-series more or less use the concept but a different mechanism: I would expect them to perform about the same given the same caveat that they are not set too tight.

 

[Deke]

"My RS-1 boots just turned 2 and they are still in very good shape. There is nothing to corrode or rust and normal maintenance would be to change the bushings the plate rides on about every 4 months (8 sets/week) and maybe replace an elastic lace if it wears out"

 

Mine just turned 2 also.  However, my lining fabric inside of the intuition liner is delaminated and  torn.  Radar says they've been improved and are sending replacements.  Also, the bushings have been upgraded from aluminum to stainless steel to help with the frequent wear problem.  I only have about 20 sets on mine so I can't really comment on that. 

[Roger]

Deke, Eddie told me they were going to the Stainless bushings and he sent me a set; just waiting until the current set wear out to try them. He wondered at the time if the plates would begin wearing, but had no data yet as the stainless had just come out.

PSM: I have taken both types of falls. Over the front on a tip stall, came right out. Blew out the tail, came about half way out, but was enough to not get hurt. If the blowout had been more violent, I believe I would have come all the way out. I had a offside tip stall in O'brien Contact bindings and tore a calf muscle. Had an onside out the front in double Wileys and broke a toe. I've had both of those falls with the RS-1 system with no injury or even discomfort.

I don't believe there is a perfectly safe system out there, but I'm betting my body on this one for now...

 

[RichardDoane]

I just put new liners into my RS-1's after a year's worth of sets (we try to ski all through the winter so they were pretty worn).  New liners make a considereable difference - they took a couple sets to get used to.  I've actually stopped using the little bushings, my ski flexes just fine without them.

[Roger]

I agree with Scot; I have roughly 3/16" registration marks on my plate from the bushings. If the ski is moving that much under the plate, then something has to be stressed (in a bad way) if the bushings are removed. If you want to ditch the bushings; I would recommend getting a G10 plate for your RS-1 boots.

[RichardDoane]

Deke - the replacements are 2009's, I wasn't sure about putting the 2010's into the older style boots. 

Scot - I'll get some new bushings from Eddie when Radar's new ski is ready for a test-rip and let you know if I could tell a difference.

Roger - Who's selling G10 plates ?

[Roger]

Horton and give you an email; it's someone he knows I believe.

[Horton]

Mike Erb from Shreveport.

teammalibu2000 at yahoo.com

Fix the address  . . .

[Horton]

ANY system that is set to aggressive will break your leg. The problem with the Radars is that not one believes that they can ski great without cranking the laces. It is a paradigm shift. All you have to do is get your head around it and then I swear it is safe.

[Gern Blanston]

I have FM E series because my ankles are toast as well.  I've had three 3rd degree sprains of each one.  with rubber, a sideways fall can put me out of action for a week or three.  My only issue with my bindings is the delamination of the liner - and I've not even had them a complete season.  There's also a smidge of rust on the metal in the buckle.   I've had a few falls where the cuff released and the foot and ankle did not contort at all.  No sprains.  No problems.  Any ideas if re-baking them will help with the liner delamination problem?

the ease of release of the E's is a function of how tightly you screw the ankle bolts down.  I like and appreciate that there's some control there.  The release is therefore reasonably independent of the fit.  Those two factors are the primary reason I chose the FM's over the RS-1s.

 

[rod0041]

When I first got my rs1s I cranked the laces. A while later had a bad fall and they didn't release. Sure enough I read on this forum that the laces sb just snug. I tried it and the bindings perform fantastic. I did crash and my feet released as needed. I am now going to run these til they fall apart. When I am standing on the swim platform I have the laces lose enough that I can lift my front and rear heals about 50% to 65% out. Super comfy and no issues with control and feel for the ski..... I see no need to crank these tight.

[Boody]

I used both sets of bindings, the RS-1s and the E-series.  I used them for over a month each.  I ski'd fine with both.  I couldn't ski as well when I ran the laces loose on the RS-1s and I didn't like the feel.  I had a fall when I should have released but didn't and I had problems skiing hard after that, affraid of falling.  I never actually released from the bindings.

The e-series had a more consistent release, but were uncomfortable on my foot, too tight even though I ran the lower laces as loose as they would go (boot is narrow).  Never really loosened up.  Plus I had the cuffs pop off a few times while skiing normal. 

I am now on the Goode inter-loc release attached to FM boots and released twice when I should have.  Wife went to the Goode powershells and is having great success.   

[lakeaustinskier]

 

I've also been interested in the E-Series.  I've currently got a pair of Drafts and although I like the way they perform - they've really had a lot of maintenance problems.  My ski partner has a pair of Quattros but I've never done the hard shell thing, mostly because I like the "give" of rubber.

 Ignoring release issues (see discussions above) would the E-Series give me the control and durability of hardshells but still allow the "give"? 

I tried the RS-1s and they feel too low on my ankles and were generally too loose on my foot - never could get used to them.  

Admittedly my Drafts DO crank down tight............  

[MAD11]

las,

I'll let you know on the E-Series after this weekend. My new pair is sitting at the house waiting for me to come home and test. Gonna mount them on the Fischer in the garage and ride. Not ready to strip the interloc off the Elite until I get them figured out. If you wanna ski Sunday afternoon to see how it goes in person let me know.

ma 

 

[ForrestGump]

I'd be interested in hearing about the Es too, Marc. Since my rs1 liners are shot, I'd been toying with the idea of ordering some Es or Zs.

[MAD11]

What size do you wear and what foot forward. If you survive the weekend in Shreveport you can come over and we will bolt them on your ski. Also planning to try the new Elite's when they come out. Look pretty cool.

[HO 410]

Hey John,

In the magic binding thread, you hinted at a design that you were discussing with a major manufacturer. Was that concept the RS-1 design or is that information still classified?

[Bdecker]

Would it be foolish to mount E's or RS-1's to a g10 plate for 2 methods of release.  It seems to me that if you had the release set high enough on the interlock, i wouldn't come into play unless the other method failed (laces too tight or another scenario).  The only downside would be perhaps a little more weight, correct?  I'm 4 days into a 6 week "sentence" in a walking cast with a grade 2/3 ankle sprain from a late release due to too much interlock and am strongly considering a different setup to prevent future injury.

[Boody]

Bdecker, you don't want to have two release systems working at the same time.  The problem is that you could come out of the boots as the boots come off the ski and the boots will sink with either system.  Also, you could get injured coming half way out.  Like I said, I have the regular FMs mounted on the G10 plate with interloc.  This seems to work great.  The FMs boots have a very flat bottom which gives a nicer feel, less slop.

[HO 410]

There's really no point in trying to hybrid these boots with other release systems. You have to lift up and out to release, so you will not come out during the course of normal skiing. These are not like rubber boots, fit does not dictate release. Okay, if you just have to have the RS-1s tight against you ankle then you are stuck with higher force to release. Personally, I found no real performance gain from tight laces, so I choose to ski loose. Test on dry land, if the force of release is higher than you are willing to subject your ankles too, tighten if up even more and accept no release (because you really don't a partial exit or 1-in 1-out) or pretend they are powershells.

[T-UP]

MAD 11,

 

How did you like the E-Series??? I got a new RCX with D3 Custom High Wrap a couple months ago, they're killing my feet…thinking about getting E-Series or RS1’s.

[miski]

Boody - saw your note on FM lower boot being too tight. They are super easy to mold the boot - I had a local snow ski shop blow out the area below my inner ankle. Jager can give you the scoop on this too - I don't remember the temp range, but it's not that high to mold them.

I stood in the boot w/o liner and slid foot all the way to one side, then checked the gap between foot/ankle and shell on opposite side. Was in general about .5-.7" - it was easy to find spot where shell was close to ankle just feeling with fingers.  After this we looked at the liner (had heat molded once) and it was only .2" thick there, so not much padding. They heated shell locally with heat gun and pushed it out, then we remolded the line and it is sweet - same area is now ~.5" thick and consistent with most of rest of liner thickness.

Now if I ever think about my feet while skiing, it's to note how comfy they are - never hurt even in coldest water.

[MAD11]

T-UP

Been skiing the E-series for a few sets now. Had to spend some time getting the spread tight enough for me and getting adjusted to them.  The first few sets I felt like I was on another planet getting myself dialed in. I have been running powershells for many years and changing boots is a big adjustment for me. Once I got them where they needed to be (I had to sand the rear boot toe down some to get to 11 7/8" of spread) they started to come around. The liners also need a few sets to settle in some I think. I ran some easy 35"s with them once they got comfortable. The most encouraging thing is I am only about 60% recovered from a severe ankle injury and they felt super supportive and safe. I even popped the tail once on a 38 trying some different fin numbers and didn't even feel it. The powershells would have lit my front ankle up for sure when that happened.  Keep you posted. I will ski them a little harder this weekend and next week.  Boots are solid, well  built and light.

Marc 

 

[PSM]

Just as an update, I ended up trying both systems for a couple weeks each and while they both felt and performed great, ultimately I went with the FM E-Series. Honestly I don't think you can go wrong with either system.

Question to the guys running them, or who tried them in the past, where did you end up in terms of tightness of the cuff bolts? The manual talks about tightening them down, then backing off 1-2 turns. I'm at tight minus a half turn on the inside of the ankle, and tight minus 1 full turn on the outside. Not sure how big the tolerance window is for a safe release versus the cuff popping off early. I was at tight minus 2 turns initially and the inside of the cuff popped once while skiing.

Thanks again for all the good info.

[Boody]

I was also having problems witht he outside cuff popping off while skiing so I actually kept them pretty snug, I quit backing them out at all.  My buddy who also uses them just cranks them down as hard as he can by hand.  He also crashes so much that he come off his ski at lease once a set.  He doesn't have any release issues.  So, I don't think you can crank them down enough so they don't release, but its very hard to ski with a cuff off.