Baller Roger Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 Anyone have any more info on exactly what kind of fall this was? I'm sure some will blame the Power Shells, but as I've said in the past, you can get hurt in ANY system with the right type of fall. I expect this was something of a freak thing, but have not found any info on the fall itself so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 I saw somewhere that he centerpunched a buoy at 38. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old MS Accout Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Velcro is an awesome product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skidawg Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 Ran over 2 ball at 38 off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ RichardDoane Posted October 20, 2009 Baller_ Share Posted October 20, 2009 Gordon's email says he broke his ankle. I watched him skiing @ Imperial, he ran a -38 and got 2 @ -39 in one round. He was even the boat judge for the M4 group for the Sunday round, so he gets an "atta-boy" for helping with the tournament. Hopefully he'll heal quickly for the snow ski season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jdarwin Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Dave "invent" the Powershells to prevent such an occurence? He states that he was inspired to create a "better" binding system due to injury. Ironic, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HO 410 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 If history proves any guide, when Dave gets hurt by bindings, he comes up with something different and, at least in concept, safer. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with. I did always find the repurposing of Dual Lock a little interesting. I'd be curious to know what 3M's position on the application would be Hope the recovery is smooth and he's back on the water quickly. If Dave Goode does anything for waterskiing, it is that he always seems to force the other companies to step up their game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old MS Accout Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Velcro Rocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jdarwin Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 HO 410 - I had the opportunity to sit next to a 3M national account rep at an airport several years ago. I mentioned how dual loc was being used to mount bindings to a water ski and he was shocked. He stated that it was never designed for use in a marine environment, does not have any "release" parameters in the design and furthermore it would be "crazy" to use it in any water ski application. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dirt Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 I am not sure there will ever be a product that will prevent an ankle or foot from being broken when you center punch a buoy at 38 off. I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemsondave Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 "I am not sure there will ever be a product that will prevent an ankle or foot from being broken when you center punch a buoy at 38 off. I could be wrong." I agree. Friend of mine broke his foot with a Wiley front and rear toe plate by running over a buoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old MS Accout Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 There will be a product. Its just not here yet. Never say never, but until then keep pounding your boots on with a rubber mallet and replace the 5 cent washers with the 25 cent stainless washers from hardware hank.   Velcro Rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skidawg Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 Gotta be tougher than the boots, pull out those ice skates MS and get tough baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old MS Accout Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Tough to relax in a cast. I need better then as well or better than. It would be like using velcro to keep my blades on my skates.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ RichardDoane Posted October 20, 2009 Baller_ Share Posted October 20, 2009 Just goes to show that no matter what you're using for binders, there's always the risk of "crash damage" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller auskier Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 and in to bat comes scot, yet again. Dave will finally have to give you a pay rise after this is all over scot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris carter Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Dave hit a bouy and then the ski skipped sideways, possibly a side/down load and broke his tibia just above the boot. The xrays revealed a separated bone with a crack coming on down to the ankle. He will get surgery likely today. It was painful. I do not think the boot released in this case with a side and downward load. Dual lock really would work better in a dual boot one plate application, but Dave is RTP so there is only one leg on. One of my girls did a science experiment a couple of years ago, and we tested "release" properties as a function of temperature, since waterskiers ski in a wide array of temps. It was almost linear as the temperature increased the release requirement decreased, by almost 30% from 50 deg to 90 deg. With the temperature variation, load differences, (ie side, heal first, twist, ) one has almost no idea on how much dual lock to use. I believe it could go anywhere from pre release to not at all with the same square inches of velcro. ....but how would you measure release in rubber or other mechanical releases. Hard problem. Having pre released several times and not releasing once (front powershell and rtp), I have gone to very supple rubber and orthotics to assist in edge control, hoping it will release in almost every case; but most dont want to reduce the competitive edge. I wonder if we really need these high boots if balance on a ski and something low could actually help athletic balance. This all may sound a bit out, but I like to think at the edge of the envelope sometimes. It it very cool that Dave and Dawn., makers of some great skis, actually ski, and compete with all of us. Hope he can be back on the dock soon, but looks like a long road from what I saw. My best to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Wayne Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 I use a single 8" safety tie on each skier ball in my course. If you hit the ball with any kind of side-force force the safety tie releases . Is kind of a pain if you hit them though because you have to get the bouy and reattach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ski6jones Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 Thomas has preached this for a long while.Really seems like a good idea, and easy to implement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Wayne Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted October 20, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2009 I filled my buoys with some water. The advantage is that the buoys are always at the right height - important for safety. The worry for me is that the buoys are much heavier and might resist a hit from the ski. So far after one year, no hard buoy tags. So maybe TW is right.His idea did keep my buoys looking good even when my water level dropped. Thanks,TW.Best wishes to Dave for a speedy recovery. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old MS Accout Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 We used to use them on or acuu float permanant coures and it was the onway to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguylikeshark Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 best off making the bouys as small and soft as possible. volume or surface area is the factor in displacement. water inside water has no effect as was stated numerous times b4.hitting a roller, a ball or upsetting the ski's attitude, results in a hard grab, and that is where the boots have to release quickly. dual-locked in this won't happen. dual lock is also really inconsistent in terms of attachment. it can vary up to 50% in the force tests we did here. add temperature, wear and water to the mix and I am amazed skiers are getting it to work. no engineer would put their PE stamp on a ski application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted October 21, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2009 Shark, I cannot disagree with you more. Duallock is a brilliant and creative solution to a complex and long standing problem. It actually solves many problems at once, the release being just one factor.Injuries happen all the time. No binding system will prevent all injuries. The injury rate of Powershells is similar to the injury rate with other binding systems. Having used many systems on my trick skis with lots of releases, the duallock works about as well as everything else. Powershells aren't perfect - but nothing else is either.Bottom line: lots of skiers have used and gotten great long term performance out of Powershells at acceptable risk levels.EricPS I think I fractured my foot (jumping in Wileys). I think the bindings are less to blame than my body's calcium issues. Or an old guy trying to keep up with his talented kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemsondave Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I just took a nasty fall. Out the front and to the side. Got locked in and had to bail before hitting the rocks. Was testing new boots on my dual lock system. They worked perfectly. I released and never knew it happened. Not even a twinge in my ankles. Of course, f'ed up my shoulder pretty good. Glad it's the off season. Dual lock works perfect for me. I put way more than I need to because I only want to release in the hardest of falls. My only complaint with the DL is having to replace it every now and then. Kind of expensive. I have seen just about every system out there and this is the only one I'll put my feet in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted October 21, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2009 We followed instructions posted by TW last spring and filled the bouys. It does work, as attested to by several members who hit the bouys in one way or another and skied away from them. We're believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Roger Posted October 22, 2009 Author Baller Share Posted October 22, 2009 Eric, While I agree that dual lock works well for most types of falls, I believe this is the one type of fall where it does not work so well. Dual lock, like Velcro will not release easily in the shear direction (that's why they added the springs on the rear boot, even with just a stall type of stop, the dual lock was not releasing easily enough). It's a difficult release with any system (had a friend break his ankle in Connely rubber boots with the same fall), but I think some of the other systems like the FM-E and RS-1 would fare better here (IMO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Johnson Posted October 22, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2009  I believe we are looking in the wrong direction by blaming the release systems instead of what is causing the problem, the buoy.... Water-bouys are a great idea but a temporary fix. A redesign of the buoy itself is in order. Possibly one where the lower third to half is as we currently have with a midsection or bladder dividing the bottom from the top. Then the top could be made of a soft sponge like material that could eliminate the rebound effect. TW, this would be a good winter project for you to patent before Shark does. Thanks, ED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HO 410 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'm not sure how complex you need to make the buoy, you just need to reduce buoyancy. 1lb of total buoyancy would probably be plenty to get the buoy back to the surface for the next pass. As it stands, turn buoys are exceptionally buoyant. Adding water to the buoy is a simple solution to combine with existing products. I understand that some doubt the safety of center-punching an apparently heavier buoy, just attach a water filled buoy and push it around while you are swimming and you can decide if it is something you want to do. For deflections and glancing blows, the difference is clearly evident.  How about latex balloons? It will explode if you hit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Wayne Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jdarwin Posted October 22, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2009 TW - couldn't a buoy be made of "nerf ball" material and still fall under the sizing guidelines of AWSA? The objective, as I understand it, it a material that will either submerge when hit or absorb the impact. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemsondave Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'd prefer something slick over something soft that might add resistance when the ski goes over it. Not sure if anyone caught my comment about water in the buoys. With a one anchor per buoy and water in the buoy to reduce the buoyancy will allow it to move around more with waves, wind and such. We had ours filled with about 1/3 water. I was on shore cutting grass and noticed the buoys were off by at least 3feet. I hopped in and easily moved the bouy 3' in each direction. I then put in an air filled buoy and it didn't move as easily. TW, have you experienced this? If so, gotta fix? We have a single anchor with a hard line going to a sub. Then about 1' of surgical tubing (from skiertoskier) going to the buoy. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted October 22, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2009 How about a bouy made from LSU Tiger defensive padding? I hear it falls over or moves away prior to any hard hits!!! Just joking Joe!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jdarwin Posted October 22, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2009 Tom - that's an offensive comment~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted October 23, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2009 What did you expect from a wide receiver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boody Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 We also ski with our bouys very low, much safer. I hate how AWSA requires them to be so high. That needs to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kstateskier Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 in other news Dave's ski which was damaged in the crash will NOT be covered under warranty because Goode skis were not designed to run over buoys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Deke Posted October 23, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2009 "in other news Dave's ski which was damaged in the crash will NOT be covered under warranty because Goode skis were not designed to run over buoys. " ... or have bindings attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old MS Accout Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Why dont they use velcro to attach down hill skis and boots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kstateskier Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 you're right this isn't skifly - because i'd be happy to tell you my real name, and still makes jokes about Goode's customer service!  (FYI I don't have any ill will towards Dave Goode - just making a joke!) Bradley Beach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 23, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2009 Maybe Dave can borrow Marc Austin's crutches now that Marc is finally limping along without them. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguylikeshark Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 rewind to what I said - cold temps will turn the plastic (hdpe) of dual lock to rock, increasing release force a lot. same thing if you go to hot - the stuff will let go easier. dual lock is light, simple to make plates and it's convenient to doll it out to everyone for a low cost boot system. almost impossible to self test your boots because it gets damaged with every latch and unlatch. you hit the right roller it will do the same thing as hitting the ball. just like karina's crash the ski can grab in a regular turn.so you are still up sh**'s creek. two skiers showed up at our lake on d/l, went home with broken boots, which was lucky it would have been their ankle.   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller roda Posted October 23, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2009 How low could a buoy be and still allow the judges to see if the ski went around vs. over it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boarditup Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I have experimented with a spiny buoy. Essentially a 6" foam disc with Koosh Balls attached. The concept is to have floating, flexible spines about 6" long (or longer) peeking out over the surface. If the skier runs over it, the spines (essentially colored rubber bands) just displace and there is no drag. The bad: They fade quickly. Algae sticks inside of the spines. I needed to clean them frequently. If you don't know what I am talking about, go to a toy store and look at the Koosh Balls and imagine a circular brush. For what we have to work with today - water filled balls are the way to go. Reduce the size to 6" and have them 2-2 1/2 inches exposed. Yes, it is harder for the judge to see. But, you will significantly reduce injuries. I also spray the buoys with 303. It keep them from fading and they are really slick to a ski. You don't have the friction of the buoy to the ski. I don't know for certain this helps, but it cannot hurt... Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 23, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2009 Quote "rewind to what I said - cold temps will turn the plastic (hdpe) of dual lock to rock, increasing release force a lot. same thing if you go to hot - the stuff will let go easier. "This was something I noticed a long time ago. I'm a drag racer and we have used dual lock to secure electronic components in the race car so if you did need to remove it, you could do so without spending 10 minutes with your head in a footwell taking screws or bolts out. The amount of force needed to break the grip was NOTICEABLY more in colder months than when it was 100 degrees outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dirt Posted October 23, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2009 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Wayne Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Andre Posted October 26, 2009 Baller Share Posted October 26, 2009 ThomasHow do you winterize them? I've ended up emptying them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Wayne Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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