Gates discussion

[HO 410]

Let's talk about these pesky buoys. I'm not finding polls so we'll just do this the long way. As I see it there are three wasy to go about entering the course.

• Gates are great as they are.
• Get rid of the gate buoys entirely. They are irrelevant. Especially as the line shortens, if you go too early to one, you will handicap yourself heading to two: quickly negating the advantage of an early start (Don't care about longline. Extra buoys boost egos, maintain interest, and nobody has ever set a record at -15' or -22')
• Get simple. There just needs to be a single buoy. The only coherent though on placement is that you do not want it to be so close that skiers are trying to cheat it. So possibly take the left gate buoy and move it back 2 or 3 feet. The pass is valid so long as the skier crosses the buoy line after he or she has passed that single buoy. 

 

[roberto]

Ho410

I am drawn to three, nice option. But, the gates are great as they are.

This is a fiendishly difficult sport. I would love to know who sat down and worked out the course as we know it, it's a master piece. The sport is counter intuitive. When you want to put more effort in the answer is really less, patience when you want to panic, go too soon and your late?

If the problem is solved too soon it's looses it's intrigue. Their are many followers of BOS who have pounded the lake relentlessy to find an extra buoy. I love the challenge as I know it and would be reluctant to change.I have said before the most difficult part of the course is from the deepwater start to the right hand gate buoy. My vote...great as they are.They are part of the intrigue.

(Ps...Talking to the wife at the weekend about funerals, I said I wanted to be cremated, and my ashes to be sprinkled between the gates at our club. Because it's the only time I will get through them successfully! Please take that in jest, the challenge brings me great joy)

Regards 

 

 

[DanE]

They are great as they are,just like Roberto said "part of the intrigue". If we move or remove them, how would that make us feel about all those years trying to improve entering them (a vast majority of us still trying).Anyway, at longline the entrance gates isn´t really a pass breaker so they should not hold developing skiers progress back at all.Kind of surprising how well thought out course dimensions are considering how long ago they were set.I don´t know how far back that was but I bet they didn´t picture the world elite skiers running 41@36 when they did.

[jdarwin]

This issue has bothered me for years - leave the gates as a reference point for the skier but change the rule to either:

1.  Eliminate the need to go thru the entrance/exit gates.  The exit gates only exist to establish a full 6 buoys - no need to go thru them.  And the entrance gates?  They don't score so why penalize the skier for not going thru them.  If you go thru the entrance gates and drop the handle on the way to 1 ball you score..............ZERO!  So why require the skier to go thru them at all?

2.  Or....allow a "second chance".  If the skier misses the entrance gates and runs all 6 buoys, allow them to continue.  If they run the NEXT 6 buoys (and get both entrance and exit gates) they are allowed to continue.  This adds some intrique that some of you find so facinating.

My biggest issue with the gates is their subjectiveness.  Judges sitting 300 ft away are expected to make a visual judgement of literally centimeters.  Doesn't make sense to me when (again) they don't calculate into the scoring.

[MattP]

I agree with scotchipman

[Kelvin]

I like the idea of leaving the entrance gates there as a reference point, but do not see the need to require skiers to go through them.  For the exit gate, a new set of buoys should be added at 41m from 6-ball so getting 6-ball is the same as getting all the rest of the buoy's.  I've seen some nasty slack rope falls at 6-ball with the close exit gates.  Moving the exit gate would make the course safer. 

[skispray]

I find it ironic that many people in the sport are concerned with the safety of turn buoys but haven't raised any concern about the fact that we practically aim dead on for the right hand gate buoy.  Have any of you ever hit that buoy with negative consequences?  In about 5 years of course skiing, I actually have only done so once.  I was trying a new ski and on the first pass my fin hit the right hand gate buoy and absolutely wrecked me! 

[Ed_Obermeier]

Kelvin wrote "Moving the exit gate would make the course safer".

But that would also make it noticably easier.  Do we REALLY want it to be easier??  Think about it.  Part of the sports attraction is its difficulty.  If we're going to remove all of that from it it's no longer the same sport IMO.  I'd be more in favor of adding another meter of length between each boat gate i.e.  That would make it easier too.  Or moving the turn balls in 12"...

I can see removing the requirement to have to make the entry gates (although I seriously doubt that change will occur in our careers/lifetimes).  The exit gates need to remain as they are now or you've fundimentally changed something we've all spent years (decades?) trying to hone in.

Ed

[DanE]

Why mandatory to go outside turn buoys? Just leave them there for reference and we can go inside, makes the course both safe and easy (even I would getting deep 41 )

[bmiller3536]

Is this discussion really taking place?

Let's say the skier is not required to pass through the entrance gates. Then what is stopping the skier from starting the course at one ball? You would be making the sloalom course 5 buoys as opposed to 6?

I am not saying the gates are perfect the way they are, but to suggest not having entrance gates is somewhat outrageous

[jdarwin]

I wouldn't classify it as "outrageous" - that's a bit of hyperbole but "interesting" would be more accurate.  It would not limit the course to 5 buoys - the skier would still have to go outside of 1.  If the need to travel thru the entrance gates were eliminated, I would bet that most skiers would still begin the course in a similar fashion in order to establish a rhythm and provide some speed coming out of 1 ball.  I seriously doubt that most skiers (especially shortline) would hang out wide of 1 ball and start the course there.  

My recommendation was simply to either eliminate the need or limit the consequences associated with them.

And as far as the exit gates, my point was that they establish the completion of 6 full buoys - only need the right side buoy to establish that.  The skier could conceivably turn inside the exit gates and still get scored 6 buoys - why must we travel through them? 

 

[HO 410]

Is this discussion really taking place?

Yes it is. It was the topic du jour when it was Andy's skiing. The underlying theme, at least as I saw it was, "What does missing the gates mean those passes." It is more than reasonable to discuss gates, what they mean to skiing, and if there is a logical way to change them better.

 

I don't think that there should be no starting point at all. I do find it insane that if I miss the gates downcourse, even in the unlikely case that I run the pass, the entire pass is scratched. Same on the exit gates. Let's say I've got the blinders on and go for seven ball, cross in front of the exit gates, the pass is scratched. And let's be honest, there are some sites where the gates are devilishly hard to judge. 

 

 

[disland]

I kind of like jdarwin's mulligan rule. It would take some of the pressure off judges who dont want to cut people on close calls on warm up passes. If you dont run all 6 bouys you still get a zero for that pass, but if your run them all you get another shot if you missed the gate. This approach would mitigate the concern about video gates, poor visibility, the boat judge cant see them, ect ect ect. I had to cut a girls gate at regionals a couple of years ago and still feel bad about it.

 

Realistically with our current system for rule changes, we know how much of a chance this kind of change has. Somehwere between zero and getting laughed out of the room.

 They cant even get rid of the maximum number of flips rule in tricks. That's got to be one of the stupidist rules I have ever heard.

[h2odawg79]

why not move the Lt. entrance ball fwd. 1m and the rt. ball back 1m and leave the scoring as it is.

This would help the entrance and the exit w/o changing the optimum ski path. I don't know, but I sure don't think short line could be done w/o the ski path (or very close to it..) presently dictated by the entrance gates.

Maybe the penaties for missing could be adjusted. As stated above the skier is at the mercy of the judges and their eyeballs and noone probably ever imagined someone running 39 to 43 off back when the course was developed...  

[MrJones]

As is.

[RichardDoane]

I agree with Scot, leave 'em alone, and concentrate on what's really holding you back

[Jean B]

Instead of entry and exit gates, they should have a starting and ending bouy left of the center of the course on each end.  To start the course you have to pass mid course after the starting bouy and to finish the course you have to pass mid course before you pass the ending bouy. So you wouldn't have to be going between two bouys that actually make you have to be going at least a slight degree down course to get between them, which is opposite the idea of getting the least angle down the course to make it to the next ball.

[D Wolters]

Jean B

Not sure I understand your "Starting and end bouy center course on each end"

Doesn't that put the bouy at centerline of "Boat Path" ?

[RichardDoane]

Jean's kind of dellusional right now, her ankle has kept her off the water for the past 2 months !

[HO 410]

Quick redirect here.

From a judges perspective. Is there something about the gates that could be changed to make them easier to call?

[RichardDoane]

Tower heigth and proximity makes all the difference.

[jdarwin]

"Tower heigth and proximity makes all the difference."

Isn't that dictated by the rule book?  It may be "recommended" for Class "C", but I believe it is "required" for record tournaments.

[RichardDoane]

what's required for a class c tournament could be greatly improved upon

[jdarwin]

"what's required for a class c tournament could be greatly improved upon"

That's why God created Class 'E" events!  We try and accomodate the rules as best we can but the reality is tower proximity at some sites makes it impossible to accurately determine gates - even if their location falls within the guildlines.  Gate cameras w/ replay is the only true means of determining gates.  And that's an expense some aren't willing to invest.

[elr]

"what's required for a class c tournament could be greatly improved upon"

For a Class C all that should be required is a boat judge (not clearly out = good) -- and maybe a pervasive "call it on yourself" etiquette.

 

[bmiller3536]

I agree with Joe. Class C tournaments, for the most part, are about people having fun and enjoying the sport Yeah, you want to enforce the rules but judge's should keep in mind there is a time and place for everything. As long as the skier does not repeatedly miss the gates or miss the gates by a mile the judge should not cut their gates. And if you are going to warn a skier that they missed their gates or they were close to missing their gates on a pass wait until after the round is over and then go say something to them.

 

 

 

[Horton]

If you had the pleasure of drinking enough beer with me over the years you would have heard this more than once:

Any sport – all sports are some contest controlled by some arbitrary set of rules. People often want to change the rules to their own preference. I say take the traditional rules and play the game.

[h2odawg79]

 "I say take the traditional rules and play the game".

Amen!   But, most of the rest of this thread is in the catagory of "In a perfect World"...

And in that "perfect world" I'm also running 41 off! -so what the heck, if we're going to dream... We may as well dream Big!!!

[Kelvin]

In a Class C event, even with towers in the "recommended" location, it is nearly impossible to cut the gates unless the skier clearly misses.  All 3 judges have a say on the gates and 2 out of 3 must cut them.  The far tower can't see the gate at all and will give the skier the benefit of the doubt.  That leaves the near tower and the boat judge.  Of those, the tower is the only one that can really see the gate.  The skier has to miss by a wide margin for the boat judge to be able to call it out.

For "call it yourself", skiers are too focused on their skiing to know if they missed a gate.  Several years ago at Regionals (under the old rules) I knew I went outside the centerline of the gate, but I didn't know if I "missed" it.  Got to the end of the lake and heard the judges score - "6".  Asking skiers to call it yourself would be like asking receivers in football to call "2 feet in bounds". 

[RichardDoane]

I know when I miss the gates, just like when I club a turn bouy, but not everyone is as honest as I am.........

[bmiller3536]

Can you tell if your ski was over the centerline of the buoy or 1" on the outside of the centerline of the buoy?

Does anyone know why they changed the rules on the gate?

I think the rule was better when all you had to do was displace the right hand gate buoy?

What is everyones thought on that?

[RichardDoane]

I know when I'm right of center.  A good judge should always give the benefit of doubt to the skier if he/she is not sure on a judgement call.  I believe the gate rule was changed to be more in line with the international rules.  Gate calls are more relaxed with class c events, you have to be way off center to lose an entry gate.  No judge wants to pull a gate, at least not any that I know. But I'm gonna be watching "Runsix" from now on !

[jlittle]

Watching my gates... ahh Richard you are the funny man.  We ski in the same division so that will be kind of hard   I suppose I should weigh in on this since I did say they were overrated.

1) Leave them as is 2) Entrance optional, exit manditory.  I have bigger things to worry about with my skiing than the gates.  Sure I go through them, but before them and after them it's a constant battle for me.  Mentally and physically.  Besides you kick my butt all the time anyway so no worries.