Wings ?

[Donski]

I known wings help slow a ski down and change the way a ski finishes the turn. But how do they actually effect a ski. Dose the tail of a ski ride deeper in the water with a wing?

If half way through your pass the wing feel off your ski how would the ski react different. Would it feel like the same ski, a ski with more tip added or just a ski that’s harder to slow down?

Not sure if what I am asking makes any sense, but it just seems like running a ski with or with out a wing should have a big effect on our fin #s.

[eleeski]

Excellent question! Right now the wing is a black magic art to setup. Horton just takes it off. I run as much wing as angled as much as possible before it cavitates and really feels weird. A buddy of mine changes the wing 1 degree depending on water temperature, wind and whimsy. There is no hard data to guide us.

Factory settings give a good starting point for personal experimentation, but it is all guesswork.

I've had terrible runs with a loose wing - so I'd not recommend a changeable wing. Except my best run of this season was with a really loose fin box - maybe the small fin/wing movements did help. But I was using an old pacman fin on a Leeski so is my input really valid?

Eric

[Old MS Accout]

But I was using an old pacman fin on a Leeski so is my input really valid?

NO. I saw a leeski almost kill you.

[aguylikeshark]

Wrote this back in '08 after skiing several back to back sets with and without the wing:

 

THE WING

 

http://www.jagersport.com/product_info.php?cPath=87&products_id=246

[Donski]

Eric that’s my point the wing is rarely talked about when it comes to adjusting or tuning a ski. I see post were people are fine tuning there fin settings a couple thousands at a time. But when wing angle is stated it’s always a common #, no 6 ½ or 7 ½ settings.Can some of the attributes that a wing offers also be accomplished by a fin adjustment instead?

[ForrestGump]

There are a few Big Dawg skiers that don't run a wing on their skis and run well into 39 1/2 off. 

[DW]

^{_{The wing acts in a couple of ways, first like a brake by adding drag to the system and also like the feathers on an arrow by stabilizing the tail end of the ski due to the added drag as well described in the article link above.  The wing acts in the vertical plane relative to the ski flat on the ground, basically pulling the tail of the ski downward.  Certainly, fine tuning the wing affects the performance of the ski, not only angle but the size, location & attachment construction to the fin affect how it performs.  The fin really acts on the pivot reaction of the ski relative to the center, so IMO they do very different things.}}

[aguylikeshark]

no huge effect wrt to ski tuning because the wing acts vertically* on the ski, where as the fin acts horizontally. and a 1/2 degree doesn't matter that much really.

 

* except in the brief instant at the completion of the turn, where the wing rolls over

[Ed_Obermeier]

I have a Word file in my computer in which I keep tips on skiing technique, fin adjustments, anything I find I think is worth keeping.  I copy/pasted this from somewhere on the Net a few years back, don't recall where I got it.  Figured it was worth throwing out.   

Ed   

Wing Angle & Placement TheorySomeone asked about wing positioning earlier. Below is an article written by Kris Lapoint around 1997:
Where you place the wing on the fin makes a big difference–no, make that a huge difference. Even on the same ski, you may position it differently than another skier would place it. It takes plenty of trial and error to find the optimum location, but it’s worth the effort. Here are some general guidelines for adjusting your wing position:
Moving the west wing toward the rear (putting the trailing edge of the wing about 0.5 in. From the rear of the fin blade) pushes the ski out in front of you in the turn and makes the ski finish the arc more quickly. This is especially good if your ski tends to finish behind you at the end of the turn. Moving the wing forward, to about middle of the fin blade makes the ski stay in the turn longer and helps keep it underneath you while finishing the turn.
Moving the wing up the blade, toward the bottom of the ski, lets the ski roll up on edge easier in the pre-turn and may slow the ski slightly more than a lower placement.
Lowering the wing placement provides more stability. The ski feels more locked in and is also harder to roll up on edge during the pre-turn. Wing angle is a totally separate issue. If you are using a wing, it has got to have some downward angle. The minimum is about 5 degrees and the maximum about 124 degrees. Common knowledge says the more angle, the better the ski slows down and the more drag the ski encounters while traveling across wakes. I don’t disagree with this, but wing angle plays another important role–it also affects how the ski turns. More wing angle promotes rounded constant-radius turns, while less angle yields a turn that’s slower to start with but very hard to finish. Most skiers like the characteristics of more angle on their off-side turns, and less angle on their on-side turns.
Like a lot of things, with fine tuning your ski you must find the best compromise. Spend a lot of time trying new locations and angles you think might not work. You may be surprised how much difference it will make.

[eleeski]

Shark, good info, thanks. But for me cold water feels a lot faster and easier to get wide so I add wing for cold water.

Also, since the ski should be rolled on edge most of the time, the wing is trying to turn the ski not lower the tail. It does add a degree of difficulty as you stated because riding flat is less stable.

Nice post, Ed.

Now where can I get wing stock. I want to make a wing where one side is a couple degrees deeper than the other. Maybe that will make even a Leeski work well.

Eric

[Ed_Obermeier]

You're warped Eric.  Really warped. 

Ed

[aguylikeshark]

Lapoint has a lot of discussion on the location of the wing on the fin - not something skiers change up much. If the wing stays in the fin's shadow (as I call it) the effect of the wing is benign. However position the wing out of the fin's shadow and you are into a tuning loop you won't want to get into because the wing starts to act or add to the fin blade and you need new equations to model this behavior. It becomes more of a hydrofoil - which is unbelievable to ski, but very difficult to tune. Mind blowing runs if it could be harnessed.

 

The ski is not way up on edge that much - it's riding closer to flat for most of the course with water impacting the base (like a banked nascar turn). So the wing would act just as it would on an F1 car for example (downforce at the rear).

 

The majority of comp skiers ski southern, shallow man-made type lakes. water is soft & spongy, turns are quick sort of the equivalent of powder skiing. anyway as water cools your ski rides higher you'll lose front end contact and grip so adding a wing will restore that by lowering the ski overall.

 

We are in a special situation on Vancouver Island. There are 3 big lakes out here. Most people don't course ski in 400 ft. deep & pure lakes at 50 Deg F. the water is like pavement in the spring. i guess a comparo would be skiing at 38 mph. deep water starts are hard to hold on to and the wing even at 3-5 Deg pulls your arms off. i (we) put wings back on in June-ish. By late august/sept the water softens up it's real nice. mid-late october it's back to murder balls again.

[Donski]

Great info, thanks guys – Ed like the idea of keeping a word file to reference back on.

It’s been told to me more than once that if you’re not skiing into at 32 off you should talk your wing off. After reading this post it seems to me that the wing actually may benefit the longer line skiers (assuming they can carry enough speed to the ball) just as much if not more because of the stability it adds to the ski. Stability is a good thing when you’re working on body position and technique.

[Horton]

I do not necessarily agree with everything I read above. For me at 55k a wing trims the tip of the ski down and draws the ski underneath me as I approach the ball.  Because I am a somewhat over aggressive skier a wing exacerbates the worst parts of my style. I think if I was a better skier I might use a wing to engage the front rails earlier at each ball. 

Two stories worth telling:

  in college I once mounted a wing pointing up. Everything felt normal until the apex of the turn. At the apex the tip of the ski dove down. My assumption is that the wing is creating parasitic drag from the wakes to the apex and is actually pulling the tip down – not pulling the tail down. At the Apex there is some stabilization.

A few years a go a friend of mine went though a whole experiment where he added angle ½ a degree at a time. He found something like 9 ½ best. At the end of it all he took his wing all the way off and skied about the same or better.

[RichardDoane]

my Strada wing is now @ 10', upside down, and very happy

[wskier]

  My goode I run 9 degrees. But I ski my Z7 with out a wing. The Goode just feels a little unstable in bad conditions where the Z7 feels the same with or without. If the waters calm the goode is crazy fast.

[aguylikeshark]

good examples - shapers, goodes, anything high riding (like an upsized ski) should use a wing. D3's are tested in CA and tend to ride stably.

had a friend who wanted to try a 9600 we had here. he was on a D3 no wing. mounted the boots and he says "pull the wing"  I said ur nuts, not this ski. he insists..head out on the course, ate so much slack looked like the ski had it's own motor. he did alright tho. with that much zing he was on an early line.

Pros or the proven range is 5<6-8>9 degrees - anything above means something is outside of normal - which could be the water (ultra slow) or ultra fast or something wonky with the ski's setup. higher angles will pull the tail down too much and you'll lose center on the ski on very short lines@39-41. this even happens at 9

[Old MS Accout]

RD,

What have you normally run your wing at? Will you move to 9 or 8 when the water warms up?

[hogexpress]

I'm on a Z7 and have noticed D3 drills their fins for all 3 wing positions LaPoint talks about.  At shorter line lengths on my off side i have trouble keeping the ski out in front at the finish of the turns.  Has anyone tried this aft wing position?

[block]

I ski on a 68.5 Elite. When the water got cold last season I took the wing off and so far this season have left it off.

 Skied Goods before and always had to have a wing.  I feel little difference in the Elite with or without a wing . May need one at very short line-- I don't know.

[RichardDoane]

MS - I've vowed to not change anything now that it's all dialed. Just need to keep RD from "blowing it"......

[Steven]

I've tried the aft position and for me the ski would get out in front of me too far. I now have it in the normal position. Maybe if I tried it a little longer I would have gotten used to it.

[skidawg]

Steel Reserve makes a LeeSki work better ;-)

[RichardDoane]

there should be a tournament where everyone has to ski on one of Eric's skis

[eleeski]

You know, those Steelie pop tops bent over might make a sweet wing!

Shark, most southern lakes qualify as deep lakes. The depth is in the 16' (5m) range. Whatever water pressure affects the ski from the bottom must follow the inverse square law. The bottom effect will decrease with the square of the depth. At 16' any bottom effects will be within 1/256th of the infinite depth lake. Since I don't believe in .001 fin adjustments, I don't believe .004 of a minor effect (the shallow lake bottom effect) can be felt. My best lake is 4' deep at the gates and 5' at the balls. But it is a very small effect and I don't change my setup to ski that lake - or when I go to a deep lake.

Also, the cold water should make the ski ride higher in the water. There is less surface tension on cold water (ever notice how water beads in a fry pan flatten out as the pan heats up?). Cold water is harder to move around and the water resists the ski dropping deep into the water. A wing helps the ski ride deeper. The wing is more important in cold water.

Consider an airplane. In level flight the vertical fin rudder (equivalent to the ski fin) yaws the plane and the elevators (equivalent to the ski's wing) raise and lower the nose. But in a bank (generated by ailerons in a plane and balance on a ski) the rudder moves the nose up and down. The elevators tighten the turn radius. The wing on a ski is a performance enhancer - minor but real. Use it to your advantage.

Eric

[eleeski]

RD, I wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand for my skis. If I can do as well as I do on a Leeski, your buoy counts would be so much higher!!!

Plus I'd lose all of my competitive advantage.

Eric

[RichardDoane]

After the Best of the West JD clinics in WA, me, you, Scholl, and Mike Charles are gonna have a little "Leeski" competition - JeanB can drive ! 

[aguylikeshark]

eric, let me explain in more detail - these deep mountain rainforest lakes out here hold almost pure water by the end of winter. pure water does not conduct electricity, and when tested it's the lowest reading i've seen by a huge margin. eg. 40 v.s 200-500++.  but conductivity can be taken as an indication of viscosity - which is what affects the ski most. surface tension - don't think that is a big factor on a ski.

the drag from the wing base is a real strain on the arms, just as the ski itself is moving through the water.

Couple more things to add - the surface tension of water increases as it gets cold, decreases as it heats up, which is what you'd expect. But i think you just made a typo there. ..and the bottom effect that skier bandy about i am very suspicious of. might be just the changes in water texture between two lakes, the shallower being softer. unless there is a good viscosity test done on the water this can't be confirmed. in industry the above is no big deal. tests like this are done by instruments in real time or by the lab. it's how quality control is maintained.

it takes time for the lake to bloom, so by june or july just as a garden grows it softens up a bit and yeah the wing goes back on and we start skiing the course again, pumping up the boat speed.

most skiers gain 1-2 passes heading south- serious canadian slalomers have to relocate because the water is so different. the closed /man made shallow lakes are better and are good training sites. but on a big canadian lake, it's gorgeous, clean but very difficult in terms of scores. skiing a cold ocean might be close, but even that feels softer to me.

[h2odawg79]

I like the anology of "Cold" H2O being Harder like ice is to warmer H2o. This reminds me of how the ski will Not ride deep in Hard (Ice) water. Which reminds me of How/why to adjust for different temps. Our H2O ranges from below 50 to mid/upper 80's by August and then back to 50's again by Oct/Nov. It's amazing how many guy's make no compensation for the 30+ degs. over the season. They hold to the "Set it and Forget it" method. I wish I could! But, 20 degs. colder will remind me in a hurry with a ski that "seems" fast as Hell and equally unstable and a touch unpredictable at times...

[Drago]

This reminds me of why I just say Grip it and Rip it

[skibug]

I AM SO SICK OF READING ABOUT WINGS!!!! LOL

[robscholl-OF]

Amen Drago....OF

[h2odawg79]

RE: "It's amazing how many guy's make no compensation for the 30+ degs. over the season. They hold to the "Set it and Forget it" method. I wish I could! But, 20 degs. colder will remind me in a hurry with a ski that "seems" fast as Hell and equally unstable and a touch unpredictable at times"...

It's also amazing how many guys blame their "Seasonal inconsistancies" on their tech. or can't figure out why they always seem to ski better in the spring and fall or how others ski their best only in the mid summer! But, most amazingly, (due to these "Seasonal inconsitancies") is how many people needlessly spend 100's and 1000's of dollars on New ski's and then more new ski's... (That 1 extra Buoy cost how much!?!?)

[RichardDoane]

every $$$ expended on gaining additional buoys is money well spent - IMO.  As for excessive fin "tweaking", you're right in that the problem is most often the skier, not the ski.  Get your fin/bindings set, then work on the important things.

[Old MS Accout]

Money well spent. The only thing is do not sell the old ski until you are 100% confidant in the new one.

I never adjust the wing and have been on 9 since my CR7. I tried 8 on a few skis, but always end up at 9.

Warm to cold water is only a style/intensity adjustment. 

[aguylikeshark]

Hit the lake yesterday just with the setting I had left off with late Oct minus the wing. So I was expecting the ski to bite too much, but it caught me by surprise (again!) in just the second cut. Almost bit it, which is not what you want to do in this stuff. All a fin does is control tail slip on the ski - that's pretty much it. Length/depth you are just adjusting the fin surface area (consequently slip). Forward increases slip, back decreases slip.

 

The ski is the most important thing really, where the priority should be. The fin and boot settings you can tune for different site or seasonal conditions, skier weight, etc. So with the water so clean and cold the fin is more effective and I'll need to get some slip back in the tail again. Moved my fin forward 40 thou to stop this from happening again. Should be enough. FM Twitter

 

Also here are two guys dealing with hot conditions to -> cool water and the ski tip biting. Cale had trouble at 38 and 39. I think it's impossible to overcome a setup that is off in colder water. Warm water is so soft some can bull ride it. JT fared better - huge turns and pulls - I am sure his turns were rounder than usual and some other subtle issues prevented completion of the 39 pass.

KLP has a notebook for every site (or so it seems). He drove up, opened his notebook, tweaked his fin/setup went out and skied. KLP enjoy!