Fin adjust for outbound

[lkb]

What fin move do I need to make to help me get the most outbound direction off the second wake? I know I really need to improve my technique to accomplish this but I just want to make sure the ski is as willing to go there as it can be. Thanks.

[A_B]

Take some tip out (shorter fin) or add depth.

Move bindings back a hole.

[Horton]

this sounds exactly backwards but I have found that fin forward keeps the ski pointed out longer after the edge change. (Ok Andy told me  - I did not think it up myself.)

[Than_Bogan]

I recently had a serious problem with outbound direction at the end of my off-side pull (entering on-side turn), and moving my fin backward 0.01" improved it almost miraculously.

From what I understand though (which ain't much), this adjustment is only likely to work when the problem is asymmetric.  For a general lack of outbound direction on both sides, my thoughts would match AB's.  My personal first choice would probably be to add depth, but be alert for turns getting harder.  If turns still feel good, you're done.  If turns feel worse, restore depth and try shorter fin instead.

Disclaimer: The one thing I know for sure about fin adjustments is that it's an inexact science.  I think for every single rule of thumb out there, somebody somewhere can cite a case where they did the exact opposite and it worked great.

[aguylikeshark]

All of the above are correct and it depends on which side you are talking about. The offside exit you need depth, leverage and less slip in the ski (fin to the back). The onside the opposite is true. So it's getting the balance right between both sides. Having ski edge in the water is key too - because the ski edge up front works to build outbound angle, opposing the action of the fin (onside). So you can effectively run more fin improving balance.

 

In softer water you can run a deeper fin, get wider & still have wicked fast turns with better overall balance. The softer the water the easier it gets.

 

For better cast out after the pull, the ski needs to come out of the water.

[MrJones]

I have never understood this area of fin tuning. The fin farther back making the ski ride more flat in the water I get. (The Horton lever concept) I also frequently hear that farther back will move the ski out in front of you more in edge change/pre-turn which would not seem to go with the previous. (This does go with what Horton posted in regard to Andy above, and actually makes sense to me in regard to the lever theory which would make me think Horton would grasp it quickly) It makes my head hurt a bit.

[lkb]

Thanks for all the info. I think I am going to move it a little forward and a little shorter then work hard on my technique. By the way, the problem is going into my toe side turn.

[Horton]

I would go forward a few hundredths first.

[lkb]

Hundreths or thousandths?

[Horton]

DFT? Hundredths. If you want to feel it. 

[lkb]

How bout .025?

[Thomas Wayne]

Do I hear .002 1/2?

TW

[aguylikeshark]

Notches for DFT adjust are usually 0.010" I had a Goode once that was 0.005 crazy sensitive. But all other skis I've ridden 0.010 was it.

 

Forward fin adjust will put you wider into your toeside

...but the tip of the ski will ride a bit higher going into the turns. and a few additional caveats I won't mention.

 

What ski/your numbas now?

Also temp/ski ditch or big lake?

 

PS - you know Asher's numbers for the A1??

[lkb]

I moved it .027. We'll see how it feels tomorrow. It's a warp. Now at .799 dsc, 6.816 tips, and 2.468 can't remember where the front boot is. Ski ditch and the water is low 90's.

[Horton]

That is a pretty big move but you will feel what you have done.

I do not see the point in making .005 moves if you are not sure what is going to happen.

 Make the move and if it is wrong or too far.... go back. 

[MAD11]

lkb,

 

Warp is a different game than most. What fin are you running? I had a totally different set of numbers for the carbon fin that comes with it than what I run now. Also it is really tough to get a dft without a slot caliper or a EZ fin tool. Initial thoughts are your running too long, too shallow. I would fix those first than play with dft. I'm running a Radar fin and wing now at 6.776 tips, 2.482 depth and .7735 dft with a slot caliper. Sounds crazy, but most guys running short with that ski in this range that I know.

 

Marc

[lkb]

Marc, I'm using the stock carbon fin. Yeah it's been easy for me to overturn my offside but I'm pretty bad about lowering my inside shoulder at the ball. So I'm not sure if too much length or the shoulder is the reason. Anyway I guess the extra length could be aggravating the outbound issue. What numbers did you use with the carbon blade?

[MAD11]

Carbon fin numbers were 2.51 depth  length 6.831 with jaws .689 dft (had to file the back edge of fin to get it that far back, but couldn't get the tip down with that fin forward and ski was super slow.)  Boots 28 7/16 front 16 1/2 to 16 3/4 back Most guys skiing the warp get rid of the carbon fin that comes with it. Ski would never keep moving through the turn for me with it especially when the water got hot.  Find a Radar fin and wing and set it up. You may have to shim the sides of the fin to make it fit in the fin box. The carbon fin is so much thicker the radar fin won't tighten up unless you crush the fin box itself. Put some shim material in on both sides. I used some old feeler gauges and drilled them so they are held in by the clamp bolts. All sounds crazy for a big money ski, but this set up makes it work. Haven't seen anyone stay with the carbon fin.

[lkb]

I tried the carbon fin at the .027 further forward setting. It may have been a bit better but I wasn't crazy about it so I went in the direction MAD11 suggested. I had one of those Schintz fins that has the built in wing. I put it in at 0.780 dsc, 2.485, and 6.770. The wing being fixed it just ended up whereever it ended up. In this case it was 6 degrees. The ski is way better. I was able to control my outbound and approach into my toeside wayyyyy better. Also the overall feeling was that it was less work everywhere. That fin is about .010 thinner than the carbon fin I was using and there are no wing mounting screws. I'm thinking this decrease in drag helped it feel better. If I can just get it to come around a little better on my heelside I think I will be where I want to be.

[ktm300]

I am trying a Warp that a friend sent to me. If I set it up so that the turns work I cannot get width. Adjust to relieve tip pressure to get wider and the turns suffer. I have an HO fin that is .095 thick. Current depth 2.460, 6.845 tips and DFT who knows. WIth the head of the caliper I am getting somewhere in the range of .770 to .790. The one dimension that I have not changed is DFT. I have experimented with boot placement and with various fin settings and 28.5 and 16 5/8 seems best. When I add depth it raised the tip height on both sides such that I am having to add length to get it to turn and am just chasing my tail with the width as the depth gets the width and the length takes it away. You would think that I could find a happy medium but, not yet. Having tried all else, I will start decreasing DFT unless you Warp skiers can provide some direction. Thanks. Water is 90's

[lkb]

KTM, I wonder if it's a flex issue? Mine will turn offside like crazy and as long as I have some weight on my front foot and keep flowing it is no slouch on the other side either. Last fall I was getting enough width to get into 38. Getting a dft measurement on that ski is harder than any other. A dig. Slot caliper is a must. Maybe MAD11 will jump back in here with advice for you. I think he skis lot shorter rope than me.

[ktm300]

lkb yea it is softer than anything else I have skied on. I want it to work because it is easy to stay balanced on it and turns really well. Very easy on my body. I skied C1 on my other ski and liked it. On this ski, I am wondering if a different setting would work to keep me moving outbound a bit more. Last night the turns on both sides were good as was movement. Observer said everything was balanced. At 35 I was getting outside the balls but, by mere inches.

[lkb]

I wish I knew something that would help. I'm not real versed in ski physics. What did your friend who had it say about it?

[A_B]

 

 Did you try your back binding back one hole?

Is the tip coming up on your onside/heelside?  Describe why it isnt turning.

If the offside/toeside is killer, it usually comes at a cost on the other side.  But there are some tweaks to get it moving better on your onside.

 

[lkb]

AB, was that for me or KTM?

[ktm300]

Well, here is what I have been advised by my smartest fin friend. He said to add 55/1000 depth. The theory is that when you go deeper it does raise the tip on both sides such that you might have to add length to get the tip down which in my case has had me chasing my tail. However, if you go even deeper and deep enough the extra side to side speed and the extra outbound direction will cause the ski to arc into keeping the tip down such that you may even be able to run less length which would be the best of both worlds. Hope to try it this weekend. I never would have thought of this on my own. Thanks all for the input. I'll report back.

[A_B]

Lkb

 

Sometimes moving the back boot back helps the onside turn.

 

If you are running over the rope and pulling the handle in high at end of onside turn, push fin forward. If the ski is out in front of you and double pull, move it back. If tip is popping up take some depth out. If you aren't breaking free of the boat in pre turn , shorten the fin. A lot of possibilities.