Stargazer on old boat

[skier2788]

I have been thinking about putting PP SG on my old boat. I have been doing some research on the topic and still have a couple of questions. I read the old post from 2008 when ZO first started coming about and the debate between SG and ZO. I was wondering now that you all have gotten used to ZO does anybody still practice behind a SG boat and ski tournaments? If so how much difference do you notice? Did you change settings on your SG to give you an almost like ZO feel? I basically have three reasons for doing this. 1. I would like to maybe someday get back into skiing tournaments and I can tell you that practicing behind a hand driven boat and then going to ZO will not work for me. 2. I will not have an experienced driver on most of my ski days and want to eliminate one more variable for a new driver. 3. I was looking at SG instead of PP classic, I read that some people feel it can give a more ZO like feel but I do not want to punch a hole in the bottom of my boat for a paddle wheel. I know the most common sense thing to do is just go buy a ZO boat but I will be fresh out of college and won't be able to afford a 25K boat (at best) but I can do the $1,400 kit for SG. 

Thanks for the feedback. I am mostly just wanting to be skiing instead of stuck inside right now and thinking of stuff to do to make me a better skier.

[kfennell]

Travis?

[HO 410]

Mildly off topic. Are there no viable club options in you general area?

[eyepeeler]

What is your old boat?

[skier2788]

Kfennell- yup

HO 410 - I ski in Fort Collins Colorado. There are clubs close by but I have been skiing on one particular lake all my life and won't leave it until they kick me off. My parents have been on it since before I was born. I am one of those people that skiing is 50% the reason I do it, the rest is the friends I have on the lake.

eyepeeler - I have an 86 American Skier that I put a newer 5.7L vortec in so it has about 275hp. I am hoping that it has enough power to work well with SG. I still have a carb and distributor so obviously not a DBW or anything that can go to ZO.

[eyepeeler]

Are you dead set on keeping your American Skier?  There are a lot of great boat deals out there for about $8.5-10 k with cruise already installed.  Is there a course on your lake?

[skier2788]

Yeah we have a course. It is a private 10 member lake. Only about half of the members actually ski the course and most of us aren't any good at it. I think two boats out of the ten actually have PP on it and they are very old versions that are the recreational model. My parents bought this boat brand new in 86 and it still looks almost brand new. We have taken very good care of it and done a lot of maintenance. I kinda figure why spend 8 to 10K on a newer boat and still have SG when I can spend $1,400 on it and put it on the boat I already have. I am debating on whether or not to just wait and save a couple of years and get a ZO boat. Most of the members who ski are only there on weekends. After I graduate college I plan on moving close enought o the lake to ski everyday which means I will be bringing friends who have only a year or two of skiing experience under there belts to pull me at 28 off. Thats another big reason I am looking at this option.

[eyepeeler]

Sounds like you are set on keeping your old boat.  If it were me I would just hand drive off of the tach with stout times and save your $1400 for your new boat

[Jim Neely]

I put stargazer on my 94 Nautique. It was a great decision. Consistent pulls with my non-skier wife driving.

[skier2788]

Jim - did you install SG yourself or have it installed? I don't think I will have a problem doing it myself because my degree is well basically auto mechanics. I don't see where it would be that difficult to do. Thanks for the feedbak its good to know that it gives consistent pulls with a not so experienced driver. I will definitely be using some of them. Last summer I actually ripped one of them all the way out of the boat gates, so not worrying about speed should help them out.

[Jim Neely]

I installed it myself. Very easy, especially since it doesn't have a paddle wheel.

[Chuck_Dickey]

ZO requires "throttle by wire" and PPSG does not.  So it will not be an option for your older boat.

PP in the Stargazer GPS mode does not work well if you have a short set up to the entrance gates. It takes too long for the boat speed to settle in order for the GPS to engage properly.

PPSG comes with PP Classic as part of the package. I run it in the Classic mode most of the time and use the SG/GPS portion for "ABT" (all buoy timing).

The two main lakes I ski are short set up and SG is terrible. One other lake we ski, the set up is long and there are turn islands and SG works great! Very smooth and great times every time!

If you want to improve your skiing technique, you need a true and constant speed control, especially if you want to compete in tournaments. Half a mile an hour fast or slow is out of tolerance and will not allow you to improve as well as rock stead speed. Not to say that learning with soft times is bad, just saying that if you show up to compete and ask for 34mph and get it after you've been practing at 33+mph, your timing may be way out of whack!

[skier2788]

Thanks Chuck I appreciate the insight. Yeah part of what spurred this is that at the end of this summer I was running 32 off and getting 2 to 3 at 35 off fairly regular and then went and skied with my sister behind a ZO boat and had to go all the way back to 22 off and took several runs before scrapping out a 28 off. I figured all my times by hand were way slow.

The lake I ski on is huge compared to most tournament lakes. The lake I ski on is almost a mile long and half a mile wide so a long setup is always easy to get. That was also part of what I was wondering cause I had heard a lot of people complain about it "overshooting" the speed with a short setup. The only PP I have ever driven was on an 05 Moomba Outback it is the recreation system and not even the 3 event one. It sets up well because of our long setup. I know from experience that this system is no where near accurate enough to compare to ZO. I am hoping that stargazer would be closer.

Chuck, do you ski tournaments and if so do you notice a huge difference between SG and ZO? Do your scores change much between the two types of speed controls?

[6balls]

My bro trains 90% SG, 10% ZO.  He has run 38 on SG and ZO, and has run 39.5 on ZO. 

I train 95% PP classic, 5% between SG and ZO.  Have run 38 behind PP classic and ZO, not yet on SG.  35's are fine behind all of them.  Now that my bro and I both have comfy ZO settings, the last thing we worry about is speed control system.  Post nationals my tourney avg (3 @ 38) is only 0.5 balls from my tourney PB, and that is training PP classic 95% of the time and skiing ZO pretty much only in tourneys.

With that in mind, on a budget, I would say install the PP classic and call it good until you can step up to a ZO capable boat.  I bought a '00 Nautique w/84 hours last year and plan to manage this way for years.  I could jump to SG, but not seeing enough value based on my performance thus far on ZO despite training PP...though am running 310 hp fuel injected GT40.  I also run this boat on a site w/two courses, both short set-ups.

If you do choose to go SG, I have heard from reliable source (MC mechanic) that the SG speed over-run on short set-ups is primarily a problem with non-drive by wire boats.  If an accessory throttle backpressure spring is installed, it apparently mitigates this issue.  I have no direct experience and am mechanically illiterate, but have confidence in this mechanic.  I can dig for more info if you like.  Have other Ballers heard anything similar?

'86 American Skier...must be an Advance?  I remember they were touted as having a killer slalom wake back in the day.  In addition to my '00 Nautique, I have a cherry '91 Ski Centurion Falcon...so I can relate to wanting to hang onto the sentimental boat.  Mine was my father's new when I was a teen...I later bought it from him.  Yours sounds like a cool older boat, too.  Mine is relegated mostly to looking cool, cruising, pulling kids skiing/boarding, and the occasional barefoot run.  The Nautique is my buoy ride.

 

 

 

 

[RichardDoane]

skier2788 - don't be afraid of boring a hole in your boat, it's not a big deal.  Just use a good hole saw, and be careful to put the paddle wheel in a suitable location - one that's in "clean" water, and easily accessible from both the top and bottom.  Also be careful about where it's located in relation to your trailer bunks.  The paddle wheel speeds are good for Trick, towing small skiers, and even towing tubes.    PPSG is a lot easier to ski behind consistently than ZO, we practice behind PP classic, SG, and ZO, depending on whose turn it is to bring the boat that day.  If you're serious about skiing well in tournaments, then it's nice to practice behind ZO, but not absolutely necessary.  I know of quite a few excellent skiers that do not have a ZO boat for practice.

[skier2788]

6balls- Yeah, I hear that a lot from people that have skied behind the skier. For an old boat I really like the wake behind it. I have skied behind an 04 malibu and a couple of moombas (all members on my lake boats). I like the wake behind the skier just as much as behind them. I want to hold on to it for nostalgic sakes and want to do like you and have a second newer boat...... one day. PP classic, it has to run a paddle wheel right? I think the PP on the moomba doesn't and is soley rpm and doesnt use GPS or anything else just the tach signal and tries to hold it there. It isn't very effective cause I can horse that boat around so much.

I am curious as to how hard ZO would be to use on my lake because we move the course all the time. We have a floating PVC course that is meant more for public lake users but we use it because our lake is an irragation reservoir and the water level is always changing and we end up tugging the course one way or another to keep it tight. I can see me every so often having to recalibrate it.

[skier2788]

richarddoane- I have one question.... Why is it that you have to be able to reach the paddle wheel from the top and the bottom?  I am as my father would put it "young and dumb" but if there is a problem with the paddle wheel can't I hold my breath and go down and fix it? I am also ignorant on the system.

By clean water you mean anywhere other than behind the prop or the skags on bottom right? That system is also way cheaper than SG and I have heard a lot of people liking it better than SG. Thats a lot to consider. Thanks for the advice.

[Chuck_Dickey]

Skiing with PPSG require entrance gate magnets. This is what triggers the PPSG timer, then the GPS knows where it's suppose to be and when it's soppose to be there and that's how it calculates the times. So if the speed is not settled "Hot" then you get a fast Ball 1 and PPSG slows down. When it see it is too slow at Ball 3, it gasses you through the rest of the course to get an "actual" time at the exit gate. There are also a lot more peramiters to set on PPSG, more were added to try to resolve the inconsistant times. So to make it as accurate as possible, you need to add crew weight, pick a skier weight (feather, light, normal, XL) and then there are Gate, One ball and Three ball setting that might need some tweaking.

I was on the lake and on the phone with PP in Canada dialing everything in. Hassle but it works!

I have skied ZO a number of times and find it to work well for me set at A2 or B2. The way ZO works best is if you are very light on the line, try to be invisible to the boat. If you hit it hard, it hits back just as hard.

"The lake I ski on is almost a mile long and half a mile wide so a long setup is always easy to get"   You still need to have a course with Gate magnets to get PPSG to work. ZO works off "Way Points"

PPSG has a single magnet setting that works very well. You need one magnet at each entrance gate, so only 2 magnets total.

[6balls]

The hassles you mention and cost are why I'm sitting tight w/PP classic on my '00 Nautique.  SG is flawless on my bro's '05 drive-by-wire MC.  We never adjust anything for crew etc and it runs 16.95 every time, regardless of skier, crew, rope length ski style etc.  It also stops "dead on" the speed just like ZO.  Another guy on his lake has Malibu LXi w/throttle cable and has difficult time with speed overshoot and settings...slowly improving with tech assist.

[skier2788]

Thanks chuck and 6balls. It sounds like there is some setup and calibration to be done when you are first setting it up and you might be playing with a lot of settings to get a perfect time. Once you get it there though it does a great job. It also sounds like a lot of people dont have a problem bouncing between a good PP and ZO. Overall I think a PP system is my best option it is cheaper than a new boat and I can get it installed before next season.

[RichardDoane]

skier2788 - the paddlewheel installs into a "through hull" style fitting, and the kit comes with a "plug" should you ever need to remove the paddlewheel for some reason or other.  The signal generator is a small spinning wheel on an axle shaft that has the wiring harness attached.  It's not unheard of that  people "kill" their paddle wheel by hitting underwater objects, careless trailer loading, or when putting the boat on the lift.  I generally bore the hole and mount the fitting just outside the bilge drain hole, slightly to the front or rear.  Away from the "skegs" in the clean water.  There's usually plenty of room to install under the left front corner of the engine.  We drill from the outside while the boat is on the trailer (that way you'll have no "interference" from the trailer bunk.  Just remember - "measure twice, cut once" and you'll be fine.   If you start with a PP Classic system, you can always upgrade the controller to SG at a later date.  I installed PP in my 1992 MC in about 1998, and kept it upgraded through all the years until SG.  Sold that boat last summer, and now have a ZO boat,  BTW, did I mention I've got a great 2010 MC 197 TT Promo for sale ? .........

[skier2788]

Scotchipman- thanks that answered my questions about being able to do well behind a ZO boat if I practice behind a SG boat.

Richarddoane- I am definitely a lot less scared of putting a hole in my boat now. I think I even found a good spot if I choose to go that route. I talked with the people at PP they said that if I only want it for slalom that I don't need the paddle wheel for digital pro PP just magnets in the course.

[scoke]

 

Everyone is different especially at 36mph. the ZO-PP-PPSG also is heavily affected by the skier weight.

Scot, dont you weigh like 150ish or so? There might be something to it regarding lighter skiers being affected less than heavier skiers.

 I typically only ski behind ZO boats. Mid summer I took 2 sets behind a Perfect Pass boat. Lost an easy 6 buoys in those sets. I couldn't generate whip/pendulum/swingset/whateveryouwanttocallit behind that boat. It was a struggle and a battle. Sure I could get away with quite a bit of mistakes but I couldnt generate the speed & acceleration I was used to as the Perfect Pass loads in a thin broadband unlike ZO.

The next sets I skied were back behind ZO and felt like I was alive and rhythmic with the boat again.

 So your mileage may vary and I personally would tread lightly thinking that you can train behind one and then have equal scores behind the other. Especially if your weight is higher and youre at 36mph.

 

[RichardDoane]

skier2788 - check on PP prices with skiertoskier.com, that's where I always got my upgrades, and scoke is absolutely correct about the correlation between skier weight and ZO performances, hence the need to be "light on the line"....

[skier2788]

Thanks guys. I know being light on the line will always be a problem for me. I am 6 foot 2 in, and 220 pounds. I am not exactly what you would call a small or light skier. My technique has always been to out muscle the boat which doesn't work either.