Butterfield, Tight Handle, Tight Line

[Razorskier1]

Just reading an archive discussion about keeping the handle close at the edge change.  Totally agree with the concept.  The harder thing is learning how to execute.  I have found that for me it is all about maintaining "light handle pressure" from the moment I turn in to the moment I release the handle.  The biggest "aha" moment for me in the last 5 years of skiing has been handle pressure.  As a relatively strong guy, I can put a fair bit of load on the line without trying real hard.  Coaches like Jodi Fisher would keep telling me to pull softer (I thought I was!).  Last season I started thinking about how the handle feels in my hands when I turn in for the gates, and I kept telling myself that once you feel the handle pressure, that's all you need.  Then I just try to ride that amount of pressure through the wakes and out toward the ball.  It is very, very light (for a 200lb guy).  The result is exactly what Bruce talks about.  Instead of loading the line, which forces the handle away from you as it unloads after the second wake, I have taken to trying to never put load on the line at all. Now, when I leave the second wake I'm light on the handle and can easily maintain the tighter handle as I head out to the ball, make a shorter reach, and get back on the handle in a balanced position again.  This process also helps me to be "quieter" on the ski.  In short, line load is bad!  The less hard I load, the better my technique, the less wear and tear on my body, the more sets I can ski without getting worn out, and the higher my scores.  It's only taken 20 years or so of slalom course skiing and endless coaching from pros and friends, but I think I've actually learned something! 

[DanE]

Nice tip, will keep this in mind when the ice thaws where I live. Sounds like a really simple and straightforward mindset.

[ral]

Razorskier1,

 what line length are you running?

[Razorskier1]

ral,

35 and 38, into 39 right now

[6balls]

Modesty...I pulled Razor1 thru 39 on ZO after he spanked 38 twice.  He also ran 2 out of 3 38's in a late season tourney once he realized that the airlines did not do his wing angle any favors...ever tried 13 degrees?

   

[Old MS Accout]

He was on his way to 41 until ......ooops

[Razorskier1]

MS - you're still my 38 off good luck boat judge! 6balls - thanks for all the pus and coaching.

[6balls]

I take back everything I said about the boat judge on the videotape...honest!

[6balls]

All the pus....what the hell is that?

[thager]

He left off the last letter when typing. It's missing the "S" or an "H". I'd go with the "S" .

[Razorskier1]

6balls -- that would be all the PULLS!  Sorry, I'm getting a little hard of seeing and missed my typo!

[Horton]

Did you see this? http://www.ballofspray.com/trent-f/799-wideits-the-new-early

[6balls]

Si...me likey.  Just printed it to go w/Butterfield and others.  Will make for good pre-thaw reading. 

[ForrestGump]

The ski narrow crowd is NOT going to like that. LOL

[MickeyThompson]

I have been trying, what I call staying connected without any success. I have tried this while skiing the course. My question is are there any drills I can practice to help accomplish this.

[Ed_Johnson]

Mickey,

First, are you skiing with PP or ZO?

This technique works well with ZO, since the GPS tries to keep you at a constant speed. I strive to get the most angle I can without overloading ZO. It is a fine balance point.

Here are some drills that may help.

Hope this helps,  ED

[Horton]

Eric has been telling me for years to stop trying to ski wide. I have not other comment....

[danbirch]

Maybe what is wide to you, is early to me....or what is narrow to me, is wide to you? Because I don't see a good definition of what "wide" is to trent (only how to achieve this position), maybe he could ski with a GoPro camera on his head and SHOW us his definition of wide? If he is only skiing to the ball line, I would call that narrow skiing, because, you cannot ski any narrower (than the ball line) and still make the course.

[Horton]

I think what Trent is saying is to continue outbound as long as your can after your edge change. Doing this makes you early and wide. If you work super hard to be early at the wakes and give it all up at the edge change it is lost effort.

Well that is what I think he is saying….

[Old MS Accout]

There is some bad verbage being used on this thread. For someone new to the sport, they will confuse wide with early and wide. Wide does not mean wide of the ball (east,west) but it means early (south of the ball) so that you back side the ball on north side. They may pull long past the ball line in order to get wide.  

[Ed_Johnson]

I believe Horton has hit the nail on the head, with the importance of maintaining outbound direction AFTER the edge change. The ability to form the Reverse C position is something all elite skiers have in common, resulting in being early with max width. Whether it is Parrish or Marcus, they exemplify this technique extremely well.....ED

[danbirch]

MS, that was my point (and that was a very good explanation). According to this article, wide means early, not wide. I think everyone agrees that the goal of the skier is to continue an outbound trajectory after the edge change, thus putting the skier out to the ball line early (without giving into the down-course pull of the boat). But the Wide/Narrow terms would be defining east/west positions (wide being more east than narrow).

[9400]

If you read some interviews that Schnitz did years ago, one of the questions he often asked was where do you want the buoy in your turn? beginning, apex or end. I believe they all wanted the buoy to be at the end of the turn while acknowledging that at super short line (or their max pass) the buoy would have to be in the middle/apex of the turn.

 

 

[Razorskier1]

When I started this thread it was because I have found that oftentimes how we say things makes sense to one person, not to another.  There are so many different ways to say the same thing.  The only way I could get to the objective everyone is talking about here was light handle pressure.  The other thought I have used is to "stay away from the ball".  The fact of the matter is that the handle is going to take you upcourse to the ball whether you like it or not.  I try to stay focused on not going up to the ball before the handle takes me there.  That keeps my outbound momentum after the edge change, and facilitates the ski's ability to swing as I hit the point where my direction (outbound) deviates from the handle's direction (up course). 

One of the more interesting things about water skiing is that sometimes when someone tells you to try something, you have no idea what the heck they just said.  Then you hear the same tip with different wording, and it makes perfect sense.  One of the great values of BOS is that you can listen to lots of skiers putting what they do into words, and every once in a while a bell goes off and it makes sense!

[MickeyThompson]

Ed, thanks for the drills.

[ScarletArrow]

Completely agree with MS on this one...I remember starting out and being confused on this.  He posted this same clarification on another board and it was a huge help for me.  I like the directional positioning (n, s, e, w) in relation to the buoy.

[Old MS Accout]

Scarlet,

JTH might ban you for the agreement. When I am coaching kids, I make sure to explain this to them all. If you ask them what wide means, they will tell you east west is wide.

[Cam]

All of the above reminds me of the Drew Ross Shortline video, I will have to dig it out and watch it again./vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-undecided.gif

Cam

[Old MS Accout]

OB,

Being wide at 38/39/41 is not good in E/W terms. If you go past the ball line, you will run to far north of the ball.     

 

[danbirch]

OB, I don't believe the pros do what you are describing. If they were, they would be 7' outside of the ball line when skiing 32 off. They are not. Why not save all of that energy (wasted) for your big 39 pass?

[9400]

Dan, I'm pretty sure most people that can run 39 are 5'-7' wide of the buoy LINE (not the ball....they are finishing at the ball) at 32 off. Their width comes early.....before the ball.

[danbirch]

(I meant ball line) 9400, I'm looking at some aerials and not seeing that much width (at 32 off). Do you have any aerials (or better yet, GoPro head cam's) to demonstrate your position?

 

Also, you mentioned that you wanted the ball at the "end of your turn". I have heard that "the course is 2 turns separated by an edge change". As I understand that, that would put the "end of the turn" at the edge change, not at the ball.

[9400]

No disrespect intended to your position and you can ski that way if you want, but I think skiers intending to ski more than 32 off are seeking to run 32 early. To answer your question, I don't have pictures to support my position.

[danbirch]

I agree with you about early. Just not as much width as you are saying. I recently spoke to a very good big dawg skier, and asked this specific question. "How Wide (in relation to the bouy line) do you ski?" His answer was, "I ski TO THE bouy line as fast as I can get there".

And likewise, you can ski any way that you want. There ARE more than 1 way to ski, that's what makes it such an amazing sport!

[9400]

So did he answer how wide he skied? The answer above doesn't say how wide he skies, just that he wants to get there quickly. How wide do you shoot for at 32 off?

 

I agree there's more than 1 way to ski, and I've tried the narrow approach at all lines and I've tried excessively wide at the earlier lines. I personally shoot for somewhere in the middle. I try to think of it as "run this pass with enough room to run the next one"

[Old MS Accout]

This is wide and early. She will be at her E/W widest point at the ball.

[6balls]

I've thought about this as well, and I typically run wide and early longer lines, but at 38 need to have the buoy closer to apex...almost like the buoy has to blow by my inside hip and only then do I finish the turn.  I have to fight the feeling that I'm late.  It's a very different site line coming into the ball than those longer passes when set up so wide and early, just waiting to rip the backside off of the ball.  I think part of this is just getting reps at 38, gaining understanding (and getting used to) the physics and sightlines of real shortline skiing.

[lkb]

MS, how you mean she will be at her E/W widest at the ball? It looks like shes already arcing back in. Shes looks real early but already past apex of her turn

[Old MS Accout]

A true photo would need to be taken at the end of the lake. This is as close as I could find today. By E/W widest, I mean that the closest she will get to the shore is at the ball. Before the ball you want to wide in terms of back towards the gate balls.

Butterfield,

Your the expert on this stuff. What do you know?

[scoke]

this thread has become a common theme for the last few years on the net:

You can't tell people anything that don't want to listen.

Someones going to get their feelings hurt.

You can't help those that don't really want to help.

Some people already know it all.

Someone will be be banned.

[danbirch]

Scoke, am I that "someone" you are talking about?

[danbirch]

"So did he answer how wide he skied? The answer above doesn't say how wide he skies, just that he wants to get there quickly. How wide do you shoot for at 32 off?

I agree there's more than 1 way to ski, and I've tried the narrow approach at all lines and I've tried excessively wide at the earlier lines. I personally shoot for somewhere in the middle. I try to think of it as "run this pass with enough room to run the next one""

 

9400, he said he only skis TO THE BALL LINE (or that what his goal is). All line lengths. Admittedly, these guys are very good, so going a few feet wider (east/west) would not be hard for them to do, and may happen at times. But, that isn't necessarily their goal, as I understand.

[danbirch]

OB, I think the best way to say it is I am skiing a "longer" line, and each time the rope shortens, so does the intensity/angle. The visuals/tempo (arrival at ball) look very similar, but the intensity increases. I thought Rossi said that when he skis 39, he tells himself it is just another 32. I know you saw the tape of Ham Wallace on the GoPro, but to me it looks like he is timing things so that the casting out of the ski will just make the ball, not much more. I believe that pass is 32 (not sure).

[Bruce_Butterfield]

 

MS, what makes you think you want the apex at the buoy at shorter lines? That is a surefire way to get late. You want the apex to be as far South as you can and still get around the buoy. Put another way, you always want to be finishing the turn when you get to the buoy, not be in the middle of it. It doesn't matter if its -15 or -41.

I think the main reason you don't see high end skiers really wide at 32 off is that its and easy pass and they are using less than 100% effort. They are also capable of very sharp turns with little effort, so they don't need the big school bus turn to backside the buoy.

If you look at the sketch of ideal skier path in my last article, it shows what I think is the ideal path for a relatively long line. If it was -39, the apex would obviously be narrower (E-W), but at the same N-S point, and the completion of the turn would be at the same point.

Its also key that with the shorter lines, the skier will carry more speed and be able to carry a flatter arc (narrow E-W) while crossing the buoy line at the same points as a longer line.

[danbirch]

Bruce, Thank you for your comments! If you ever get a chance, would you consider posting a GoPro headcam video of your path skiing a set? That would make a lot of things come very clear, (to me, at least). It would sure helpful. Thanks! P.S. If you don't have one, I'll send you one to use.

[RichardDoane]

dan - send me a gopro and I'll put it on this weekend, email richard@burienautorepair.com (of course if I break/I buy)

[scoke]

when i wrote "someone" i was leaning towards, in no particular order: ms, ob and scoke.

 

If you are living with a guilty conscience, well my friend, that sounds like you've got work to do.

[bmiller3536]

Do you get extra points for being really wide of the buoy? I do not like to be early, I prefer being on time. Whenever I am real early at the buoy I lose all my speed and the pass becomes an accelerate then decelerate pass all the way through with alot of wasted energy.

[6balls]

Bruce, you know far more than me, so this is just an observation...though tends to conflict w/your post above of where the apex (max width) is at shortline.  I would WANT my apex uprcourse from the ball so that I can finish at the ball for sure...but:

When I watch video of Andy, or CP, or Regina, or Nate Smith that have been posted on this site in the last few months...at shortline they are on their inside edge but still going outbound right up until and sometimes just past the ball. 

By the time their turn is actually finished and they break buoy line going toward the wake, they are significantly more downcourse than they were at their earlier passes where they took the back off the ball.  It seems to me the physics of the short rope are going to dictate that max width (apex) comes nearer the ball.  (Notice I couldn't bring myself to say I agree w/MS)

Having said this...obviously take w/grain of salt as I run 35 well but only sporadically get thru 38.  Thanks to all who are part of this discussion...I want consistent 38 this season and all the food for thought is appreciated.

[6balls]

Thanks OB, for the notion that 38 can be run turning after the ball.  Maybe not ideal, but for me right now just want to get 6 w/consistency, then maybe can work on earlier! 

Just had a goofy thought.  Our heads (from where our sight line comes) reach their apex prior to our ski swinging out and reaching it's apex b/c the rope is only so long.  This would happen up course of the buoy and could give the sightline impression that the apex occurs upcourse of the ball even though, if we do it right, the ski will still be traveling outbound. 

This would support the idea to get to the buoy line quickly (our heads anyway), but then allow the ski to swing out and around the ball at it's apex.