which perfect pass?

[youngman]

I am looking at installing perfect pass on my 1994 fuel injected prostar. We have to clip the bouys on and off each time we use the course but the mainline stays in the water. I am currently getting through at 32mph but a few of the guys are working on thier 36mph passes. Would the perfect pass wake edition work for us or should i spend the extra money get the 3 event edition? Do we need to use the magnets and would they work with removable bouys? (not sure how the magnet system is set up). Thanks.

[6balls]

I respectfully disagree.  I would put the magnets on and leave them on the mainline when you sink it.  If you need to weight it slightly on those spots to make sure it sinks do it...a couple zip strips on an open milk jug w/pebbles or sand would do it.  Make sure the mags have something stopping them from sliding all the way up to the buoy or may hit the boat as you pass.  There are custom lines for this or simply create your own obstruction half way up the line used for the boat path buoys.   Get your 3 event PP and don't worry about hand timing. 

 

[Ed_Obermeier]

Personally I'd go for StarGazer.  You only need one magnet at each end of the course, OR you can just use the hand timer and no magnets.  With SG you only have to start the system at the entry gate, SG does the rest of the timing for you.  If you have a magnet at each gate SG will automatically time the pass and all you do is drive.  If you delete the magnets and use the hand timer, that replaces the magnets for starting the timing.  Just hit the button once at the entry gate and you're good to go.

Trying to time your pass with the hand timer for Classic PP is an inaccurate PITA.  You're trying to drive with one hand, hit the timer button at EXACTLY the right point 3 times each pass with the other.  Too much bother and way inaccurate.  If you want to use PP Classic it's built into SG as well, just switch modes.  Once you get SG dialed in you'll never screw with Classic again.

Ed

[eyepeeler]

If you have plenty of money, get the Gazer as Ed suggested.  If you would rather save your money for $5 gas just keep hand driving.  At 32 and 36/15 hand driving is fine. 

[6balls]

I would accept Ed as a friendly amendment to my post above, but with a '94 MC you are in a throttle cable boat.  SG can be much more onerous to set up in a boat without throttle by wire.  For that reason IMO would still favor 3 event PP classic. 

Having said all of this, in the early 90's I was training behind an outboard barefoot boat with my dad hand driving AND timing--entry and exit only w/nothing more than a stopwatch at 36 mph--opening at 15 off and into 35off.  One could argue the inaccuracy but my tourney results at the time were the same.  Ah, the good 'ol days.  Was amazing how consistently he hit 16.08 w/in a few hundreths. 

[lpskier]

With PP classic, you need the magnets for the anticapatory  boost at the entry gates (can't recall the technical term, but the magnet triggers a boost at the gate before the skier pulls down the RPMs) and for second segment boost (SSB - remembered this one!). Agree though that @15, hand timer will work fine. In fact, unless you are skiing tournaments, who cares about timing?

Who is it that keeps thinking a good permit condition is to remove the balls? Knuckleheads. What a huge hassle. And all it does is hide the course from fisherman who don't know it is there and get their gear hung up. No wonder they don't like us.

[6balls]

My bro (Razor1skier) had an easy time setting SG up on his throttle by wire MC 197...and that boat is SO dialed.  He tried to help a friend w/a throttle cable LXi and I'm not sure they ever got it worked out.  Even once settings ok the throttle cable LXi would overshoot speed and take time to settle back down...mostly too late.  Have heard there is a more robust back-pressure spring that may help that issue that can be installed.

I was going to put SG in our '00 SN 196 w/GT40 until I heard about the LXi fiasco.  Now sitting tight and enjoying the ride on PP classic for training.  Scores same on ZO in tourneys as on PP classic in practice, so not willing to entertain the potential headache.       

[lpskier]

Brent: Bring your boat down in May and we'll get you dialed in. Bring a date and spend the weekend.

[thager]

Youngman,

I'd go with PP classic with magnets and timer. Will last you for many years. Upgrade to stargazer after a few years If you want to ski tournaments. When I had PP classic I just used plastic safety ties to secure a doughnut shaped 3 inch ceramic magnet to the bottoms of the appropriate gate balls (Gates and 3 balls for total of 6 magnets). Never hit one or got so much as a scratch on my boat or ski in ten years. You could still continue to remove the gate balls as you have been. If you were nervous about hitting the magnets just turn the bouys over and encase them in silicone sealant then let dry. If you're using foam cylinder bouys you could cut out the magnet outline an inch or more deep and use sealant to secure inside the foam.

[RichardDoane]

SG worked just fine in my 92 MC, even with the shorter set-up lakes. you just had to be careful to ease up to speed and not overshoot.

[youngman]

I am not really up to date with speed control technology. Does classic perfect pass use the paddle wheel and the 3 event use GPS, other than that do they operate the same and can you still purchase classic pp?

[Ed_Obermeier]

Brent.  I don't have my settings written down here and the boat is in storage for probably another month or so.  I do remember that most of the values, expecially the pre-gate setting, were WAY below the values PP lists in the book for most boats.  Default setting for pre-gate is something like 70, I have mine set (I think) on 15.  One ball and 3 ball settings well below the defaults as well.  Once in awhile it still freaks out and takes off at the 3 ball but not frequently enough to worry about.  We're of the opinion that when this hasppens it's due to the GPS momentarily losing signal for some unknown reason.  Generally segments and total time are within 0.02 of actual, this on an '05 LXI.  We also had to change I think it's the "tachometer" setting from "Normal" to "Inverted" to make it work properly.  I've read that this fixes getting SG to work properly in cable throttle boats in a lot of instances.  Someone else here will know more about this issue I'm sure.  I think this is one of the biggest issues to getting cable throttle SG to work right, inverting the tach signal.

Start by inverting the tach signal (or whatever signal it is that you invert) and lower your pre-gate to 10 - 15 and one ball to around 12 - 14, and see what happens.  Should be small tweaks from there.

Copied this from my notes I keep stored in my computer -

PRE-GATE/1-BALL/3-BALL ADJUSTMENTS – In GPS SLALOM mode press ON/OFF and UP at the same time to access.             
- PRE-GATE SETTING– Controls speed of boat approaching course.  If 1-ball times are slow INCREASE Pre-Gate value; if fast reduce this setting.  Default setting is 70.  Tweak this value first before tweaking 1-ball and 3-ball settings.  Adjust 10 points at a time.           
- BALL ONE TIME – Controls 1-ball time and affects 3-ball time as well. If Ball One times are still slow after adjusting Pre-Gate settings increase this value 3-4 points at a time.  Default setting is 22.           
- BALL THREE TIME – Adjusts 3-ball time.  A higher setting speeds up boat, lower setting slows down boat.  Adjust 3-4 points at a time.  Default setting is 18. 

 

[Ed_Obermeier]

6balls wrote "...Even once settings ok the throttle cable LXi would overshoot speed and take time to settle back down...mostly too late.  Have heard there is a more robust back-pressure spring that may help that issue that can be installed..."

This has been talked about here numerous times before.  On pull up DO NOT OVERSHOOT YOUR BASELINE RPM SETTING and you'll get rid of this issue.  If you overshoot on pullup it does take SG quite a while to settle back down.  If you don't overshoot it settles in (settles "up") much more quickly.  One of the oddball things about cable throttle SG that you just have to make the adjustment for.  No biggie once you get on to it.

Looked into the heavier throttle spring thing on my '05 LXI w/Monsoon engine, was told by the mechanic who looked at it that a heavier spring wasn't an option for my setup.  Don't know why exactly, I'm not a mechanic.  But he said it wouldn't work or wouldn't help (don't recall exactly which) and this from a guy I know to be an excellent mechanic.  ??????

Ed

[eleeski]

Buy a new ZO boat.

I remember hand driving and hitting the stopwatch as I went through the gates. We rigged up a foot switch to make things easier but usually I just held the watch in a hand. If the watch had a cord, I used the throttle hand but I prefered to time with the steering hand (I would cut the cord off so it didn't tangle in the wheel).  Busy times at those gates but surprisingly accurate.

Accuracy is relative. Times were so hard to hit that if you drove to within .01 of actual you got a kiss from the cute spotter. And if you got a perfect time ... Speed control has taken all the fun out of driving.

Get 3 event PP Classic and get 6 magnets to hang from the bouys you tie in. Upgrade when the ZO emulator for Stargazer comes out. The extra money is only a couple tanks of gas (at today's gas prices).

I would say to get a new boat (actually, I did) but that 94 MC is a sweet boat. It deserves the top of the line speed control. Or a cute spotter and a rigged stopwatch.

Eric

[east tx skier]

There is no ramp up in SG at the gates like in classic. In SG, it just comes in a little hot and rolls back when it gets the gate trigger. The point is the same, without a trigger, the system doesn't operate optimally.

 

If all you are doing is slalom, you won't need the paddle wheel. In SG, you don't need it for anything except water temperature unless you do a lot of skiing on a river, in which case, there is a request only software option that allows you to use the paddlewheel as a speed input instead of GPS. We have pulled trick in SG and it was spot on at slower speeds.

 

In fact, I am in the process of replacing my paddlewheel with a through hull tranducer for the new depth finder with it's own air water temp sensor. Seemed like a better use of that hole in the boat.

[jjackkrash]

Hijack on:

 

Eric,

 

Do you or did you own or a lake out in the Desert? I am wondering if we burnt down your barn at a college tourney at your lake circa 1992. I think Jack Hanna was the chief boat driver for that tourney and provided the matches.

[Phil2360]

So Ed,

 in real terms, the pregate setting controls how many Km/h above the set speed the boat approaches the gates, ie 70 = 0.7km/h etc.

What does the ball one setting do? I presume it does something like define the amount of extra RPM added when the timer is triggered. If that is the case does anyone know roughly what the calculation is.

If that's about right for what the ball 1 setting does, how does the 3 ball setting vary in it's part played in the overall operation. Is it a function of extra RPM added for pull applied around bouys 1 & 2 ?

Mine's dialed in pretty good for my boys that ski 28 - 34 mph & are in the feather setting (27 & 40 kg). What I found was a big help was to have time cards on the dash that I could glance at as I drove to help really get the feel of what the boat was doing & where it needed adjusting.

I would like to understand the algorithithms it uses a bit more though as I think it would help in understanding how the system works & make it easier to "work with it".

Time cards I made are attached. I print them double sided on A4 paper & laminate them & stick to the dash with either Blu-Tack or Velcro.

Cheers

Phil

PS. I have read what the support docs say about the background settings, I'd just like to hear a more detailed description on their workings.

[Phil2360]

To Youngman,

Go with the Stargazer & a couple of magnets. You'll appreciate the improved consistancy of the pull you receive. I certainly didn't regret spending the money.

I've had one upgrade (Ver 7.0.62) & that was well worth the money too.

We used to hand drive (foot actually), & the feel of the pull between 3 different drivers was huge.

Cheers

Phil

PS in hind sight I could have nick-named one of my mates "Zero-Off" (early versions).

[eleeski]

Rebuilding that barn in Mecca was a pain - but that burned barn was closer to 2002 (USD did buy the materials to fix it). My first burned barn was in ~94 and Hanna didn't do that one (don't store propane indoors). So I'm not sure if I'm the exact lake.

Hanna knows about all my burned barns though. No wonder Hanna always laughs when he sees me.

Eric

[jjackkrash]

Hehe. Now I am going to see if I can dig up some pictures. I think your dates are off or there were three barns. :)

[GAJ0004]

I have a 1994 Ski Nautique with a mechanical throttle with Stargazer. I used six magnets(3 in each direction) to calibrate, but run it in single magnet mode. It works great. This will save you some time and gas..  Get your analog speedometer calibrated, and then write down all the tach reading between 26-36 MPH. When you go to calibrate each individual speed you will be closer to the correct one in calibrate mode. It will save you some passes when calibrating it. I never had perfect pass before I bought mine in 2008. I burned a half a tank of gas before I figured it out.