Odd question, binding pattern or other similar ski?

[wlrottge]

(sorry in advance, long and wordy)

So, I'm a -15 skier working at 30-34 mph. Skied all my life and started course work ~2 years ago. I ski with a coach 2-3-4x/week. I've been fighting more this year than last. Earlier in the season I was picking up 2-3 buoys per night on my PB. I was working to run 32 and here recently it's just fallen apart.

 

I do work well above my level behind the boat but my issues are the time it takes to turn. My coach and I have been working on body position at the turns and started talking a/b the fact that maybe I'm on the wrong stick. I bought a new off the shelf 67" Senate with double vectors at the start of the season last year. Fin and binding numbers were checked when new, checked at the begining of this season and checked as recently as last week when we took .005 out of the tip. We've also tried going forwards and backwards with the bindings.

 

I feel like the ski needs me to force it around which ends in me trying to force it around and breaking at the waist. It also feels impossible to get the ski out in front of me, kind of like it's slow and I can't overcome the drag. I'm not a small guy (6'2, 190), was a college runner, raced mountain bikes and activly race catamarans, so I'm not weak. As he says, either I pay the Out-the-Front gods well or am just lucky ;-). Truth be told, my agressiveness and lean is what probably saves me.

 

I'm not trying to say that it's the tool, not the carpenter, but I've tried skiing light, I've tried killing it and I can't get over the hump (on to 34 and -22). While sitting waiting on weather Saturday we were talking about his ski dilema. He's been running -35/38 and moved from a 9700 to an Elite and is going back. I said, "some guys use chop sticks, some need a fork". As a result we decided that I was going to try something different.

 

Only ski he has with bindings big enough for my 13's is an Iconn Sonic C-6. Funny enough, I bought a similar blank ski just before I started skiing with him but I've not been on it. I skied his this morning and after a pass or two it was feeling pretty dang good. It didn't feel like I couldn't push it out front or that it was trying to pull me out the front. I didn't get to my PB but I felt like I could given a couple of days on it. The ski felt more "physical", but I wasn't pulling any harder. Anticipating that this is due to it being stiffer.

 

1 - Does anybody know what plates fit this ski? I may just buy some bindings and ride it for a couple of months. The large bindings are killing my feet, so I've got one of my Vectors on the front only b/c they're too narrow for the back pattern.

 

2 - Anyone know the differences between one with a mostly clear carbon top with Red/Blue stripes and a clear with only a blue stripe with gold pin stripe? I have to go dig the blank one out to get the name off of it.

 

3 - Any recomendations of other sticks to try?

[boarditup]

I believe that Connelly binding plates will fit. Additionally, Radar plates should fit, as well. That is a really old ski in terms of design, components, and weight. Since skis break down over time, I urge you to get on a recent production ski. I have a size 14 foot and weigh over 250 (6"3"). I am on a Radar Senate with Radar bindings and it performs very well with very comfortable feet. I am looking hard at the new Strada. The new Strada boots will fit my 14's as well. I just don't know if I want a closed toe boot, though.

[wlrottge]

Oh yeah, I knew it was old. It and the one that I have are WELL cared for. The one I've got looks like it's never seen action. I'd say that it's lighter and stiffer than the '10 Senate.

 

This is kind of a temporary "try something different" exercise. My Senate just isn't working for me I guess. A S-C might feel better b/c of the stiffness, but I'm also trying to get away from the Vectors. Comfortable, yes, but with my ankles from running, I'm going with something stiffer. I was thinking a/b a Vice/Strada this fall anyway, but I'm less set on trying them and much less sure which way to go now.

[Jim Neely]

I was on a Senate last year and I had no problem getting it to turn. I think you just need a fin adjustment.

Are the turning issues on both sides?

Are you able to get to the buoy early enough to be patient in the turn?

Is the breaking at the waste only on one side, and is it before the buoy or after?

[boarditup]

Horton has said that you buy the ski that makes up for the permanent problems in your skiing the best. I think that is great advice. The 67 just may be too small for you and it may not be a problem with stiffness. See if you can try one size up.

[wlrottge]

I'd say turning issues are on both sides. I have no issues getting angle (one caveat). My biggest problem in that regard is being too aggressive and getting too much speed and/or width. By the time I have two slow turns I have to kill myself for 3, too much speed needed to get there then have to slow down to turn. I end up trying to force the turn and throw myself forward at the ski trying to get it to go, i.e. break at the waist. It feels like no matter what I do or how hard I try to stay vertical, it's trying to pull me forward on the off side turn.

 

The caveat is that like in Rossi's article a/b "impossible line" if I hook up too early I get pulled off edge around the center of the wake and end up flat and losing all my angle. I've got that under control, but regardless of body position, lean angle or attempts to counter it, I get 6-8" of upper body movement through the wake. This morning one of the comments was that I didn't have any upper body movement.

 

Attached is one of the only pics from this year that I can get to from here. Excuse the constipated look. I don't normally grimace; I figure I just took a face full of water.

 

He had me move the bindings back one hole from the stock 29.5" earlier this season. That didn't seem to impact my turns as I progressed after that. We've talked a/b fin settings and did take 5/1000's out of the tip. That little bit did make the ski feel slightly more free, a hair less slightly less likely to be pulled out the front on the off side and a little less prone to breaking at the waist as well, all symptomatic of too much tip.

 

Something that really bothers me is the upper body movement. If I didn't have issues the first time out on the Iconn.... It just makes me wonder if maybe it's not just the turns that are telling me I'm using the wrong tool?

[wlrottge]

There is a skier at the lake with a 69. I may try it if he's around some time soon.

[Chef23]

I think some video would be helpful. I don't think you can have too much speed at the wakes or be too early. My guess is that you are getting across the wakes with speed and early then going flat and gliding to the buoy. When that happens you pick up speed and are fast at the ball and wind up with a lot of slack. Without seeing some video it is hard to tell though.

 

I am going through something similar with my son but we are wondering if the ski might be a little big for him. I also am working on getting him to try and turn sooner at faster speeds (he is working on 34 mph), standing taller at the buoy particularly on the offside and having a better more controlled reach.

[wlrottge]

I was hooking up too early and too hard and doing what you described. I try to stay on pulling edge to slow down but have been finding myself too wide more often than not since not hyperaccelerating before the wake. Only time I find I have slack is when I force the ski to turn faster. I'll have to get more video, all the stuff from this year is on his camera. We've not done as much video since he bought an N200 and the tracker does not work as well with it. It will be the weekend before I can get on the water again b/c of the regionals.

[ForrestGump]

The Sonic was one of my all time favorite skis. I had one in 99 until someone stole it. It was fast and STIFF. First ski I ever rode thorugh 15/36. I might still be on it, if some bumb didn't thieve it from me! lol

 

That said, you have to find a stick you can ride. It may be that the Senate doesn't suit where you ride it. And it is probably a touch small. At 6'2"/190 you would probably be fine at 34mph. But at 32, it might just not be big enough. If you could try the 69, I'd say do it. Two years ago I bought a 67 Senate C and slowed the boat down to 32 and just worked on running good passes. But I am 20lbs lighter than you.

[wlrottge]

I bought the 67 over the 69 based on coaching advice. I'll try a friends 69 next chance I get.

 

When I went from the OLD O'brien World Team Comp as a teenager to a Concept, I loved the increased stiffness. I had a similar feeling today.

[ForrestGump]

BTW.....I think the red/blue striped Sonic is a 98 and the blue w/ gold pinstriping one is a 99 model ski.

[wlrottge]

Because of the regional last week (coach went and won his division) and a horse deciding that my wife and I taking him to the vet for stitches was more important than me skiing on Sunday, I didn't get on the water again till last night.

 

Absolutely confirmed that I've been on the wrong stick. It was the second time on this ski and it was night and day difference. After a couple of passes to get comfortable, I was skiing better on the old Sonic C-6 than I ever did on the Senate. I didn't change anything a/b my style but every aspect of what I did was better. No upper body movement through the wake so long as I had a solid position whereas before I moved regardless of how strong I was. I wasn't throwing myself forward and breaking at the waist trying to force the ski to turn and was generally just able to relax and be smooth. About halfway through the set, Jeff said, "It's just totally different, I think we'll be able to do something with this ski". I backsided balls futher down the course than I have ever been able to and probably could have run a PB had I been after balls and not form. I think tomorrow nights set will be interesting.

 

I was able to feel when I started to do wrong and was able to adjust unlike before. Ski carved a tighter arc w/o any effort on both sides and didn't feel like I was being pulled over the front. I was getting wide much easier, but was getting some slack and had to adjust b/c of it. The ski took the speed into the turn sooooooooo much better. He said once that he couldn't believe how much speed I carried into a couple of turns and just rolled with it. I know that someone said, "old shape", but....

 

When I got done we talked and best he can figure is that b/c of the narrower tail and its flatter shape, it turns better and suits me. He said, "I think your ski is just to 'dragy'" and we talked a/b width of the ski, stiffness and its effect. Frustrating to have spent nearly two years fighting it, but I did ask a/b playing with the Senate settings which resulted in the answer, "why?". It's generally setup stock, but we've played with binding position and taken tip out of the fin. He's slow to blame the arrow before the indian, but in his words, "just wild".

 

This ski is unquestionably too small for me, however I've got two options to play with. I ran up to his attic to grab my 67 Sonic 2x and saw that he had a 68 C-6. I think for the rest of the fall I'm going to ski the 68 C-6 and/or the 2x. He figures that I should play with them both and see what I like better then stick with it till the end of the season. I may demo some this fall, who knows, but I think I'd rather see how far I can get before the end of the season than play with demos right now.

 

Any suggestions on what to try? As much as I hate to, I'll probably get a set of powershells b/c he's got several Goode's in my length and flex that I can try.

[Dusty]

If I remember correctly, I think the C-6 has a narrower tail than the Senate of same length. Was it Iconn's version of the CDX or whatever? (same generation anyway). It should be a deeper riding, slower ski- turns should be tighter and more in control. With the Senate, what I'd suspect is a combination of two things, tuning and likely you're pulling too long without positive edge change. Make sure it's tuned correctly for your skiing and try that bigger ski- They will slow down, and they will turn if you let them.

[HO 410]

If you're measuring length with jaws, you won't be remotely close to factory settings. All modern skis turn as long as their settings aren't too far off the reservation.

 

For pre 2011 Senates

Rini #'s Front Boot: 29 1/2 Length: 6.85 Depth: 2.505 DFT: 0.75

 

Rossi #'s Front Boot: 29 1/2 Length: 6.84 Depth: 2.495 DFT: 0.77

[Glydon]

wlrottge ... I ski on a 66 Iconn sonic c-6. It is the 2002 model (maybe 2001) last year they were made. It has the clear coat carbon fiber , black , orange and blue graphics. It is a fantastic ski. I bought it on ebay for 10 bucks blank , no fin , no fin block. I ended up learning a lot more than I cared too about Iconn trying to find parts. Here is what you need to know. The bindings and plates on the ski ... Front plate and boot is a KD (now D3) ... you can simply buy a D3 driver or KD Leverage with the front plate and it will mount right on . I used 99 KD 7000 double plates and double boots and they mounted right to the ski. You should be able to find something on ski-it-again. Good luck.