MC experiment continued

[kona]

"a boat with a good shortline 36mph wake as well as good slow speed long line wakes, and good trick table are very nearly diametrically opposed. In other words you end up with a severely compromised boat that everyone would have some gripe about."

 

My point exactly it doesn't exists.

[Dusty]

When the Formula/Indy type racers began to lighten and strengthen they had to go to a 'monocoque' (sp.?) construction. I heard the whole car (including the engine is a structural member?... I am told that the cars are now so light that driver/fuel weight differences equal about one pound per horsepower, plus or minus. Boats have way more drag but lighter should still be better?

[Dusty]

When the Formula/Indy type racers began to lighten and strengthen they had to go to a 'monocoque' (sp.?) construction. I heard the whole car (including the engine is a structural member?... I am told that the cars are now so light that driver/fuel weight differences equal about one pound per horsepower, plus or minus. Boats have way more drag but lighter should still be better?

[MCskiFreak]

Yes for any dynamically supported vessel weight is an issue, but as has been pointed out the boating community as a whole is very uneducated as to what strong is when it comes to materials, and tend to think ohh really thick and heavy = really good boat. The added time and training that are required to use other building techniques are also a deterrent to builders who already have large scale production ala MC, CC, 'Bu.

[MCskiFreak]

Yes for any dynamically supported vessel weight is an issue, but as has been pointed out the boating community as a whole is very uneducated as to what strong is when it comes to materials, and tend to think ohh really thick and heavy = really good boat. The added time and training that are required to use other building techniques are also a deterrent to builders who already have large scale production ala MC, CC, 'Bu.

[6balls]

Perhaps a new player jumps in and stuns the big 3? Cirrus came into aviation all composite construction, ballistic parachutes, and glass panels and for the first time in forever Cessna was outsold in piston single engine aircraft.

Would take a big set o balls, lots of venture capital. Even if weight reduction could be achieved...most of the line (the big wakeboard and family boats) don't need the reduction...seems to me they WANT to be heavy and that class is where the sales and margins are located.

 

[6balls]

Perhaps a new player jumps in and stuns the big 3? Cirrus came into aviation all composite construction, ballistic parachutes, and glass panels and for the first time in forever Cessna was outsold in piston single engine aircraft.

Would take a big set o balls, lots of venture capital. Even if weight reduction could be achieved...most of the line (the big wakeboard and family boats) don't need the reduction...seems to me they WANT to be heavy and that class is where the sales and margins are located.

 

[Bulldog]

6balls said "most of the line (the big wakeboard and family boats) don't need the reduction...seems to me they WANT to be heavy and that class is where the sales and margins are located." That is the key statement right there…. The wakeboard v drives are the only thing keeping the big 3 in Business!!! With out them we would have no new slalom boats, quite sad really…..

[Bulldog]

6balls said "most of the line (the big wakeboard and family boats) don't need the reduction...seems to me they WANT to be heavy and that class is where the sales and margins are located." That is the key statement right there…. The wakeboard v drives are the only thing keeping the big 3 in Business!!! With out them we would have no new slalom boats, quite sad really…..

[jipster43]

Curse that darn Skurfer! Though I loved it so.

[jipster43]

Curse that darn Skurfer! Though I loved it so.

[MCskiFreak]

@6balls That is exactly what I would love to be able to do and I hope that I can come up with a viable business plan that will allow me to see my dream through. With the way that the production is set up at all the mfgs. currently you wont see them move to anything other than traditional open model techniques unless they are forced to do so because it makes little sense to have a totally separate line for a few hundred boats per year.

[MCskiFreak]

@6balls That is exactly what I would love to be able to do and I hope that I can come up with a viable business plan that will allow me to see my dream through. With the way that the production is set up at all the mfgs. currently you wont see them move to anything other than traditional open model techniques unless they are forced to do so because it makes little sense to have a totally separate line for a few hundred boats per year.

[Nick Sullivan]

New Mastercraft is coming 2013, its official. I don't know anymore than that but I have seen an advertisement on Team Talk and then spoke to a factory guy and yes the new boat is coming.

[Nick Sullivan]

New Mastercraft is coming 2013, its official. I don't know anymore than that but I have seen an advertisement on Team Talk and then spoke to a factory guy and yes the new boat is coming.

[ForrestGump]

Been official for a long time. LOL

 

[ForrestGump]

Been official for a long time. LOL

 

[MattP]

@Sully they have been saying that for a while. It was going to be this year but the XStar got the preferential treatment over the 197...

[MattP]

@Sully they have been saying that for a while. It was going to be this year but the XStar got the preferential treatment over the 197...

[walleye]

That's great hope they are considering a wake for all slalom skiers this time.

[walleye]

That's great hope they are considering a wake for all slalom skiers this time.

[ForrestGump]

When discussing MC's new boat with Chris Owen and Scott Crutchfield at dinner one night earlier this year, they indicated that MC wanted it to be a game changer.

[ForrestGump]

When discussing MC's new boat with Chris Owen and Scott Crutchfield at dinner one night earlier this year, they indicated that MC wanted it to be a game changer.

[auskier]

Game changer like the barge SN200 needing 400HP+ kind of way? or a 19ft lightweight, economical SKI boat game changer? I think I know which way it will lean.

I will believe the new MC when I see it.. lot of talk for several years now..

[clemsondave]

Lightweight is not necessarily the way to go. Sure it MIGHT give a good wake, but it would be harder to drive. Take it to the extreme - would you want to ski behind a jet ski? It's light weight, has no wake and doesn't use much fuel.

 

Another example are two current production boats. Both have similar wakes. One is light and one is not. Guess which one is easier to drive? Don't know about ya'll, but I'll pay a little extra in fuel to have a smaller wake and be easier to drive.

 

FYI, the 200 is a game changer. That's why all the other manufacturers are playing catch up. Is it perfect? No, but it is a gigantic leap forward. All you have to do is watch someone at longer line and/or slower speed to see that. It's probably why the new Malibu exists. Also part of the reason there are so many complaints about the MC wake. I love the barge comments about the 200 - 4" wider, 6' longer and 200# heavier turns it into a barge. It still will out accelerate all the others. It also doesn't launch the longer line skiers....

 

I agree with you though, the next game changer will have to ski AND drive like a 200, but at a lower price. Not sure it can be done, but they will sell a lot if they do.

[ForrestGump]

auskier, the new MC hull is smaller and will be a 19ft boat I'm told by MC. I wouldn't expect economical to be involved in the party, though. LOL

[Dirt]

@clemsondave, the CP is lighter and easy to drive. I drove one that we just pulled the shrink wrap off of. It had obviously not been set up yet. It was sweet and JL ran into 41 off with no tracking/driving difficulty on a lake I had never been to/driven on before.

I like the 200, CP and MC.

[clemsondave]

@Dirt, the two CPs I have been in ski great, but have been difficult to drive compared to the 200. Skiers have no trouble pulling it around. Requires much more capable driver than the 200. They feel too light to me. I have no problem driving them (about like the MC and Bu), but if I was going to pull a record, I'd pick the 200.

[MCskiFreak]

@eleeski Eric this paper may be something that you would find useful in your experiments. It is titled "Performance Prediction of High-Speed Planing Craft with Interceptors Using a Variation of the Savitsky Method" authored by Raju Datla and Snkanth Syamsundar.

[Horton]

Set up is HUGE. I do not understand it but every time I have driven a Pro skiers boat it has been night and day better than anything else I have driven....

[ForrestGump]

Absofreakinglutely, Horton. It amazes me that you can go to a tournament and get a promo boat that is not set up correctly.

[Nick Sullivan]

Shane,

Why does that amaze you. I've asked many drivers how to set up a boat and they usually say load the rudder and ballance the boat with weight in the right places. I do this the best I can and I hope my boats are nice to drive and ski behind.

 

Then, there is one or two pro drivers I know who are getting the bondo out and playing with the hull and the HOOK on the back of the boat or modifing tiller arms. How far do you expect the PROMO guys to go. Do you think we should be messing with anything other than the rudder load and wieght distribution?

 

If setting these boats up like the Pros was easy don't you think everyone would be doing the same thing?

[ForrestGump]

Sully, the problem is that not all of the promo boats that I've driven at tournaments ARE weighted with an acceptable amount of rudder torque. Not to mention, there are boats with old ZO programs. A promo boat should have the latest sw, recommended prop for the zo sw(another issue this year I've seen due to the program changing on MC's), no dead spot in the steering, and the weighting should be worked out on it. I in no way would expect you to get out the bondo. FWIW.......this is in no way belittling MC, as it's a systemic issue with all manufacturer's promo teams. I do know that MC is looking at their promo team criteria for 2013. The promo teams are there to put a product in the hands of skiers as well as market boats for the companies. There are team members(for all of the big 3) who use it as an excuse for a new boat every year and will only pull 3 or 4 tournaments at their own personal lake, which is never what it was intended. CC kind of started weeding that out during the economic downturn when they essentially cut their promo roster in half by not adding people back as team members dropped out. Malibu is running pretty lean on promo members now, as they are having to floorplan finance each individual boat produced.

[thompjs]

Shane, at the 2002 Nationals about half the drivers wanted almost no torque! I had mine set with moderate amount and no one liked it. So it got sent over to the trick lake to get the crap beat out of it for a week.

One of the reasons that some of us don't really like pulling 19 tournaments is the number of hours that get put on the boat. Over 100 hours seems to depreciate the boat significantly. I've ordered a 2012 against my better judgement. If I have as much trouble selling it as my last one, someone else can have my slot.

 

Sully, I'm definitely not modifying the steering system on my boat -- or allowing anyone else to do it, unless the factory is shipping me the parts.

 

Also I'm not sure that having a boat with bondo on the hull meets the rules.

[clemsondave]

I agree Jim. Some of the things discussed on this thread would violate the rules in my mind. Altering the hull is one of them. A prop change would be another. These boats are approved in a certain manner for tournaments. If it's not being used in a tournament, go for it.

 

I know CC tests each promo boat themselves to make sure they are ready to go. Beyond that, I provide a counter weight that can be moved as needed and adjust the rudder to where I think is a good average of what myself and the other local drivers like.

 

If a boat shows up at one of my tournaments that I feel is setup improperly, has been altered (like bondo) or is a danger to the skiers, it will not be used. I have seen some boats this year that fit in that category. Watching longer line skiers get launched is not fun. Hell, feeling a significant bump through 32off is not fun.

[ForrestGump]

Jim, I don't disagree with you at all. I wouldn't want to pull 19 tournaments either. That's not really what I'm talking about, though. Much like Dave mentions, I've seen boats show up at tournaments in the last two years and you had to ask yourself if the owner had ever even driven them. And I'm not talking about yours! ;)

 

Hopefully the economoic climate is a bit better and you won't have as much problem selling yours this time around. We sold both of our demo 200s in a 4 week period recently which was actually quicker than we thought and left us without a boat until the 12 shows up in a few weeks.