GaryB Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I would like to improve the wake on my '73 ski nautique, the boat is going to go on a serious diet this winter. A few hundred pounds of wet foam are coming out, along with any other weight I can get rid of : Lighter ski platform, lighter oil pan, minimal interior, lightweight floor construction, lightweight battery. I'm seriously considering a "mini tower" with integral bimini and ski racks, it would add a little weight, but stiffen the boat up, and improve function. I'm looking for better wakes for recreational skiing, 32-34 mph, and to allow the boat to maintain a better pull at footing speeds with multiple footers. The boat is powered with a Palmer/ Thermo-electron 351 upgraded with GT40p heads, a custom cam, performer intake and Hi-Tek manifolds, It turns a OJ four blade 13 x 13 to 5050 rpm at just under 49 mph. What about cavitation plate/hydrogate, lifting rails, spray rails, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 How about some wings on the tower for lift : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 How about some wings on the tower for lift : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 Dude. You're gonna sink all that money and time into a boat you'll never come close to getting it back out of in resale? Wouldn't you be better off selling it now and investing $12K or so in a late 80's well kept MC 190 that already has the wake etc you're looking for? Point-of-dimishing-returns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 Dude. You're gonna sink all that money and time into a boat you'll never come close to getting it back out of in resale? Wouldn't you be better off selling it now and investing $12K or so in a late 80's well kept MC 190 that already has the wake etc you're looking for? Point-of-dimishing-returns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller EricKelley Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 That's a cool classic boat. I like them, but I think there is no way to make the wake much better. The beam is narrow and they ride deep in the water. They throw a wake that is painful to the ribs compared to modern boats. If I remember the attitude of them, raising the transom would be a help. I've done this temporarily with several layers of thick tape. Gorilla duct tape would work. You could try bonding some lifting strakes and see what happens, but I would be careful as the boat could handle dangerously. If you've got a bunch of time you need to get rid of then go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller EricKelley Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 That's a cool classic boat. I like them, but I think there is no way to make the wake much better. The beam is narrow and they ride deep in the water. They throw a wake that is painful to the ribs compared to modern boats. If I remember the attitude of them, raising the transom would be a help. I've done this temporarily with several layers of thick tape. Gorilla duct tape would work. You could try bonding some lifting strakes and see what happens, but I would be careful as the boat could handle dangerously. If you've got a bunch of time you need to get rid of then go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 Or pick up an outboard barefoot tourney boat w/tracking fins. We pulled 6 footers w/'88 ski centurion barefoot warrior at 40 plus mph. Outboard Flightcraft or Sanger of same vintage would provide same. Big hole shot, and for recreational slalom skiers at long line 15 or 22 off the wake is far smaller and softer than any inboard offerings of past or today. If you need more interior size the Centurion Falcon Barefoot provides it. My old man used to run me into 35 off at 36 mph in the course hand timing in the '91 Falcon Barefoot. Any of these boats should be sub $10K at this point. They don't work for hardcore shortline slalom today for all kinds of reasons (wake, tracking, speed control)...but if you are a barefoot line guy w/a need for recreational 32 and 34 mph slalom...they kick butt. Also look cool and go like hell. I don't run buoys behind it, but still own my '91 Falcon Barefoot. The kids ski/board/tube it, my wife swivels it, I foot it and we fit lots of people for cruising/fireworks etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 Or pick up an outboard barefoot tourney boat w/tracking fins. We pulled 6 footers w/'88 ski centurion barefoot warrior at 40 plus mph. Outboard Flightcraft or Sanger of same vintage would provide same. Big hole shot, and for recreational slalom skiers at long line 15 or 22 off the wake is far smaller and softer than any inboard offerings of past or today. If you need more interior size the Centurion Falcon Barefoot provides it. My old man used to run me into 35 off at 36 mph in the course hand timing in the '91 Falcon Barefoot. Any of these boats should be sub $10K at this point. They don't work for hardcore shortline slalom today for all kinds of reasons (wake, tracking, speed control)...but if you are a barefoot line guy w/a need for recreational 32 and 34 mph slalom...they kick butt. Also look cool and go like hell. I don't run buoys behind it, but still own my '91 Falcon Barefoot. The kids ski/board/tube it, my wife swivels it, I foot it and we fit lots of people for cruising/fireworks etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 I love the classic old inboards and I don't think reducing the weight can hurt, but (and I'm sure you've heard this a million times) I cannot get behind adding monkey bars to any old boat. Or new boat for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted October 27, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 27, 2011 I love the classic old inboards and I don't think reducing the weight can hurt, but (and I'm sure you've heard this a million times) I cannot get behind adding monkey bars to any old boat. Or new boat for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryB Posted October 28, 2011 Author Share Posted October 28, 2011 I know about the diminishing returns but... I realize the main issue is: The boat is very narrow and blows a big hole in the water. Lighter will have to help, are there any other changes I can make? There seems to be some hull design knowledge here. I'm still on the fence with the tower, don,t picture a tower as you know it, but a well intergrated bimini frame, that follows the lines of the boat, not high enough to walk under. I'll mock it up with pvc conduit before I pull the trigger on it. The real reason I came over here was to improve my skiing, I'll work on core strength over the winter, and lots of questions and video in the spring, I would also like to gain enough know how to get my kids started on the right track. Thanks for all the input. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Sounds like a challenge. If you put some shims under the trailing edge of the transom (using bondo, that could be removed if necessary) you would improve the wake and spray but lose mph. Better check with Jody Seal at Florida Inboards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted October 28, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted October 28, 2011 I am afraid that their really is no hope of making the old SN a better slalom boat. DON'T MOLEST THE CLASSIC!!!! Now us real men (LOL) cut our teeth on that old SN and learned how to survive and ski better because of it. Best to leave your old classic alone and find a late 90's EFI boat. If you like Nautiques the bubble back's were very good boats as were the Malibu and MC's good bang for the buck. A nice one can be had for around 15K. If you are looking sell your old classic, Correct Craft Fan .com is a great place to find it a new loving home!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryB Posted October 28, 2011 Author Share Posted October 28, 2011 Sportster comes to mind, good wake, good footing boat, maybe in the future. The Nautique is getting a new floor anyway. Jody, I called you a few weeks ago about an oil pan, you were out of town, I'll try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thompjs Posted October 28, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 28, 2011 Hugh send him a Wake Tamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Hugh Nichols Posted October 28, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 28, 2011 Put a wing on the rudder like the one on the '98 prostar's. It helped that boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thompjs Posted October 28, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 28, 2011 Hugh, I thought you might still have one, or at least a picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Hugh Nichols Posted October 28, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 28, 2011 No, just borrow winged rudder idea from mastercraft, they "might have" borrowed it from grandpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryB Posted October 28, 2011 Author Share Posted October 28, 2011 I could saw it in half and widen the transom, ala Rob Shirley. anyway, a pic: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted October 28, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 28, 2011 The old Nautique is a wonderful boat. Fantastic trick wake. It can be fat sacked into a good wakeboard wake (a tower is quite appropriate for this boat). Empty of gas, gear and ballast it slaloms - well it can pull you through the slalom course. The hull is just too heavy for the size to really flatten the slalom wake. The wake gets challenging as the rope gets short (spray and a big divot) but the older crowd learned behind this boat. I loved my 76 Nautique. Restore it nicely for a fun skiable classic (your diet idea is totally valid) - certainly you can teach your kids well behind this boat. But shoot for slalom PBs behind a modern boat. This boat may be a good candidate for serious structural redesign. A V6 or aluminum engine tied to a minimalist layup could make the wake for slalom go away. A bit of ballast brings back the trick and wakeboard virtues. Plus you could tow it behind a mini truck. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryB Posted October 28, 2011 Author Share Posted October 28, 2011 The boat needs more surface area to run on for more lift, a full width cavitation plate would add surface area, would add transom lift, and by getting the bow down would add lift over the entire running surface? It would kill the boat for footing however, raise the cav plate up for more footing speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted October 28, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 28, 2011 She is a classic. Love her for who she is. Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 28, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 28, 2011 Your Sportster idea above is also way better than your nautique...bring the old girl up to beautiful aesthetics and keep it or sell to s'one who appreciates. The sportster has a great slalom wake and is a killer barefoot boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryB Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 I can get plenty of pulls behind a buddy's sportster, the nautique is a hoot to drive, I'll just be asking for lots of pointers on wake crossing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted October 31, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted October 31, 2011 Are you willing to do some significant mods, or just work with what you have and reduce weight and a few minor tweaks? An old restored stock example always carries a certain "value" to many. When reducing weight, concentrate on items at the transom, in fact move as many towards the front as possible. As noted a key is the narrow hull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryB Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 What would your suggestions be on the minor tweaks? significan't mods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted November 1, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 1, 2011 Remove weight: above items (remove all rear items) + aluminum engine parts (heads/intake/exhaust manifolds), move the fuel tank forward. Significant would be to add outer chine or reduce the deadrise (at the transom) to the hull or basically make it wider and as noted, add some hook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryB Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 My thoughts are:Adding outer chines and cavitation plate,(adjustable hook), The intake is aluminum, the manifolds weigh 14 lbs apiece, oil pan will save 30 lbs. I'll run the fuel loads light, 30-40 lbs will come out of the interior, the wet foam will be 300lbs at least. Should the extended chines have a slight downward angle? Follow the angle thats there? Some very rough calculations: Current: 2500 lbs weight, running on 56 sq ft of hull surface. 45lbs/ sq ft. Add 1 1/2 chine extensions and a 9" cavitation plate, plus reduced weight, 2100lbs running on 63 sq feet of hull surface, 34lbs/ sq ft. I realize these do not take into account any of the dynamic forces of the hull in motion, (I simply do not have any knowledge in that area) but that is a big improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thompjs Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 If you adapt one of those old MC rudders with the "wing" on it, it will do more that all the other crazy things you are talking about. The Suicide lake guys in Tulsa had one and the wake was way better for slalom. The just built their own wing and bolted it to the stock rudder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 Gary, you might look into something like Infiniti did with their boats. It was a bolt on winglet on each side of the hull that started at about the engine box and went backwards at chine line. I'll see if I can get a picture of one in the next week or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51off Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Wake tamer works! Jerry Stokely originally came up with this idea, NOT KRIS LAPOINT! And yes,it works great! If you need pics.,or would like to purchase one, drop me a line. Moneyback guarantee!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted August 25, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 25, 2014 the fastest easiest way to improve the wake of a 40+ year old nautique is to jack it up and drive a sn 200 in under neath it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Waternut Posted August 25, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 25, 2014 Good topic but this is a 3 year old post FYI... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted August 25, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 25, 2014 yeah. nobodys interested in improving the wake of an older boat any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller teammalibu Posted August 26, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 26, 2014 Back in the day a guy from Cal. had an ad in WSM for a wing similar to the wing on a slalom ski it was about 4 inches wide and made out of 1/8 thick stainless it mounted to the rudder and was adjustable. I made one and put it on my 88 2001 beacuse nobody wanted to ski behind it after the 90 nautique came out. It really knocked the wake down but you couldnt turn left at speed and the boat topped out at about 37 mph. As far as footin goes the last thing you want is an old nautique worst wake ever!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted August 26, 2014 Baller_ Share Posted August 26, 2014 @mwetskier: not quite so fast, I find improving the wake of any boat a fun and rewarding challenge / project. No question, the new boats are superb, but if one is on a tight budget, there are several ways to improve an older boat hull / wake. The ZO issue is a different can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted August 27, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2014 @DW -its called ' sarcasm '. i thought it had made it out to the west coast by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Greg Banish Posted August 27, 2014 Members Share Posted August 27, 2014 I still think the lowest hanging fruit for wake improvement on an old boat is mass. Those iron block/head 350/351 engines are damn heavy. I'm still kicking around the idea of of "repower package" that uses a modern engine that's 300# lighter and still makes 300hp. Another upside is that with modern EFI controls, adding Zero Off capability would just be a matter or supporting the right CAN signals from the ECU on the bus to the dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jordan Posted August 28, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2014 Can you guys post a pic of the wake tamer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted August 28, 2014 Baller_ Share Posted August 28, 2014 @eficalibrator: very true, 300# makes one heck of a difference, although better than at the mass CG, getting as much out out of the transom helps even more. One can get a lot of mass reduction via aluminum replacement parts on the older gen SBC's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted August 28, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2014 Aluminum V6? Those old boats were 220 hp or maybe less. Some fancy modern four cylinder engines can do that. The real problem is ZO compatability. My old American Skier really needs a smaller engine. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted August 28, 2014 Baller_ Share Posted August 28, 2014 @eleski: any of the old SB's can be built up from the 250ish range to 350-400 using off the shelf aftermarket aluminum parts on a very nice budget and all are simple bolt on parts. Agreed as noted earlier, no compatibility to ZO. Step 2 would certainly be a smaller package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Greg Banish Posted August 29, 2014 Members Share Posted August 29, 2014 Changing from iron to aluminum heads on a small block V8 is a 50# reduction. BTDT on cars too many times to count. It's a step in the right direction, but not enough to move the needle significantly here. A modern 4-cylinder starts around 200hp, and boosting (super or turbocharging) to right around 300hp would be relatively easy, given the unlimited amount of cold lake water available for an intercooler. The package could be smaller than the SBC (smaller engine box needed) and lighter by roughly 300#. Using a modern EFI system, I could probably get it to talk over the NMMA CAN standard so that Zero Off can be added along with a modern dashboard/display. If anyone is serious about actually doing this, shoot me an email and I'd love to consult on it. This is the kind of stuff I do for a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted August 29, 2014 Baller_ Share Posted August 29, 2014 Trying to make an old narrow hulled SN ski better is like pissing in the wind. There really is a specific Formula for building a boat capable of delivering "Good-Great" slalom wakes and have adequate to enhanced power and then track with a crew of three and a short line skier. Narrow old SN and pre 90's tournament boats just do not cut the mustard! Build the old boats for Lake cruzin and walley skiing! Their are many nice mid 90's-early 2000's under $15K that ski very well and have the potential to make a great economical modern performing ski tractor. Save your time and effort and $$$$$ on the old junker. Find a bubble back Nautique or a 190 or a LX and put the efforts into one of them. We will never see a 4 banger in a ski boat. Yea you make them run sub 8 sec on the track but the raw torque at low RPM is the key to moving and sustaining the needs of a ski boat. Maybe a V6 in the future. And now Indmar Marinized the Ford V-10 Raptor engine.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Waternut Posted August 29, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2014 Well I wasn't going to post anything at first since this is an old thread but I guess people may search this thread for ideas later. Anyway, I've taken an old 86 Dixie Super Skier and turned it into a fantastic ski wake for the price of a $500 hydraulic wakeplate. Everyone always talks about saving weight but let's be honest, newer boats weigh more than their predecessors so weight isn't everything. With the wakeplate up, my wake feels like hitting a brick. It's not huge but it's very very firm. Enough that you feel a significant jolt running from your feet through your back every wake crossing. Takes a few hours to install the wakeplate and most of that is moving the gas tank. Then takes 2 seconds to move it to full up or full down. Now my boat feels nearly the same as our club boat which is a 2000 closed bow ski nautique. Can you really expect much better than that? The spray off the side of my boat kinda sucks and it doesn't have the pedigree of the big 3 boats but it was bought for under $3k so I can't complain. No head, block, or exhaust manifold swapping. No weight savings. No extra maintenance. I haven't touch the wakeplate since I installed it over 2 years ago. The lips on the wake are at approximately 22 off in these pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted August 29, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2014 @Jody_Seal There is a formula that all the modern manufacturers are using. Bad for tricks. There are other ways to generate a great slalom pull than a giant boat with a huge engine. Like a light little boat with an efficient engine. And Jody, you know that horsepower is torque times RPM. Gear the engine properly and there is plenty of power to the prop - even with a four banger. @Waternut Trim plates do work. But not a perfect solution. Weight reduction is a perfect solution - ignoring the cost and effort to lose the weight. If you just want to ski, put on a trim tab. But internet dreaming, well I want the ZO techy four cylinder in an all carbon hull! Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Waternut Posted August 29, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2014 @eleeski I agree with you that weight reduction is ideal along with ZO and a carbon hull but so is a brand new 2014 Prostar and you have to draw the line somewhere. Changing engine parts and removing parts from the boat to reduce weight doesn't add up very fast. Yes every little bit helps and I definitely notice the difference between 5 people in my boat and 3 people in my boat but that's 300-400 lbs. That's like losing the base engine completely...not converting a few steel parts to aluminum. I know the risers are heavy but not that heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted August 30, 2014 Baller_ Share Posted August 30, 2014 If I was looking for a small (Soon to Be Vintage) pocket ski Machine, this would be my choice. This little boat has great potential with a EX 343 and ZO up grade. Along with a rudder change the 176 would make a top notch slalom tractor. Would much prefer skiing behind this then the pre 90's narrow classic tourny boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ALPJr Posted August 31, 2014 Baller Share Posted August 31, 2014 I always liked the 176. Wish there were more around. A 17' hull with a light strong motor, and a basic skier interior. Back in the day I had a 1971 16' Glastron V164 with a I4 Volvo IO. It topped out at about 42mph, pulled 34mph at 38rpm, had almost no wake or spray and tracked ok - never skied past -22 in those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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