Balanced Stance - Definition?

[MrBrown]

What is the definition of a "Balanced Stance" on a ski and how does it apply to each skiing style such as West Coast, Compressed, Stick Style (straight legs),...etc.

 

1) Does "Balanced" mean having equal weight distributed on each foot, or does weight distribution depend on the skiing style of the skier?

 

2) With each different skiing style, is there a different "balance point" on the ski and a different weight distribution on the ski?

 

3) With each different skiing style, how can the skier tell if he is truly "Balanced" on the ski?

 

 

If you watch the 1/4 speed videos of the Big Dawgs,....Scott, Larson, Badal, Brown, etc, etc.....you will notice a difference of their weight distribution on the ski! Who is more balanced?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[ral]

I know I did not have a Balanced Stance from 4 to 5 in my last pass before the OTF that crapped my C6-C7 ligament and disc...

[MrBrown]

I'm sorry RAL but I had to chuckle at your comment! I'm sorry, but that was funny! lol (Get better soon! )

[boarditup]

Horton has a great "basic relaxed position" instructional somewhere on this site. I don't recommend that a person look at the adaptions of a great athlete at the very edge of the performance envelope for a general guide on how to ski. Those athlete will come up with tweaks that work for them in a particular situation that will not apply to other athletes and other situations. Jodi Fischer makes a great point on this during his coaching sessions - master the fundamentals and ingrain them before moving on to advanced technique at the very short line lengths. Most of that technique is the result of experience and sheer athleticism.

[ForrestGump]

Chad's already told you he wasn't balanced in that video in comparison to how he skis now.

[MrBrown]

@ShaneH But Chad still ran 39off! I believe that he was balanced for his style! (I did change it to include all of the 1/4 speed skiers.)

 

The question is how does a skier with different skiing style, know if he is truly balanced?

 

Is the weight distribution on the ski the same for all skiing styles?

 

What techniques can a skier do to ensure that he is balanced for his particular style?

 

 

[ForrestGump]

Regardless of whether Chad ran the 39 or not, you are ignoring what he himself is telling you. You obviously know more than he does. Guys like Chad, Greg, Scott, Matt can run 39 even when skiing poorly. They do it on instinct and adrenalyn when it's a tournament. Truth be told, they would probably not run 39s in practice if they skied that same way. This is why it's not exactly indicitave of their style to take video of them skiing in a head to head, multi round tournament and calling that gospel on their skiing. It's only indicitave of a given pass on a given day.

 

 

[thager]

Your perfect balance point is dependent on how you are physiologically put together. Everyone's ideal spot is different and is dependent on style, experience, skill level etc!

[Chef23]

Horton wrote a good article on it. I can't find it right now but it is something I have shared with learning skiers and it makes a lot of sense.

[Dirt]

I recommend you not listen to Horton unless you want to look like you are skiing at 40 mph :)

[6balls]

I balance being too far back by trying to be too far forward an equal amount of time...does that count?

[Than_Bogan]

Karina Nowlan seems to talk about balance every time their is a mic in front of her, and to be perfectly honest I have no clue what she is talking about. I want to do just about everything Karina is doing in the course, but I don't know how!

 

If anybody could dumb-down this concept into precise instructions for someone with limited athletic ability, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

At this point, I'm getting about as much from "balanced stance" as I would from "go around the buoys and don't fall."

[ForrestGump]

Than, that's because a"balanced stance" is not a mechanic. It's the result of placement of body parts together. My personal thought is that it's less style dependant and more physiologically dependant. Someone who rolls their shoulders forward will find a different balance point than someone who squeezes their shoulder blades together, even if the rest of their body position is the same. I think one gauge of a balanced stance is movement on a ski. Typically the people who are more balanced, like Karina, are very static in their stance(both upper and lower body) on the ski throughout the pass. But then you have guys like TGas who really roll their upper body forward in the preturn. But like Matt Brown says, there are high end skiers who can move on the ski, but they always get back to that same centered position at the finish of the turn. Which is exactly what TGas does.

[MrBrown]

@thager wrote....Your perfect balance point is dependent on how you are physiologically put together. Everyone's ideal spot is different and is dependent on style, experience, skill level etc!

 

I totally agree with @thager. The point that I was trying to make is that I don't think any one of the Big Dawgs has a "better balance" point than the other, they just have different "balance points" depending on their physiological build, skiing style, experiance, skill level.

 

Some skiers may look less graceful and smoother than others but that doesn't mean their balance point is wrong,......just different.

 

 

[ForrestGump]

When you put it that way, I am in total agreement.

[Than_Bogan]

Hm, OK. I'm gonna stubbornly try to turn this into something I (and hopefully others!) can use:

 

1) How can I tell if I'm in a balanced position? What good things happen?

 

2) How can I tell if I'm not in a balanced position? What bad things happen? Shane already identified one: excessive movement relative to the ski.

 

3) For each bad thing that can happen from not being in a balanced position, what is the correction to make? [And the answer of "stand in a balanced position" is not allowed! :) ]

[MrBrown]

@ThanBogan wrote....For each bad thing that can happen from not being in a balanced position, what is the correction to make? [And the answer of "stand in a balanced position" is not allowed! :) ]

 

Exactly!

[ForrestGump]

Than, what happens when you reach forward with your head and shoulders at the apex of your offside, bending at the waist? Typically, the ski snaps around, overturns, and you are in the water. That is one big example of what happens when you're unbalanced to the front foot. Conversely, coming into your onside, if you are on your back foot, you will typically use your shoulders to turn the ski, it then flops over into too much angle and you either get pulled up or go into the water.

 

There's no one correction to make. You have to teach yourself, though muscle memory, to stand over the sweet spot of the ski. My coach has me standing with correct body position so that both feet have equal weight over them from the time the ski planes out. Then as soon as I go through the exit gates, make sure to stand in that same position til you set down. Over time, your body starts to remember that position and finds it without thinking about it even in the course. And once you start finding that position, your movement relative to the ski lessens. I know with me, I can instantly tell if I'm on my back foot coming at 1,3, 5 and I'm learning to then drive that inside hip and shouder forward. I still have a much harder time feeling that I'm over the front foot coming into 2, 4 though. I know from video, though, that when I do come into 2 with my shoulders forward and I'm over the front foot, it's usually because I let the boat take my left shoulder and the handle off the 2nd wake.

 

Find a video of chad scott this past summer in comparison to the video posted from colorado in 2010. He moves far less relative to the ski and he tells you he is more balanced over the center of the ski. He will also tell you that if you can be centered over the ski for 4 buoys, you can run the pass.

[Than_Bogan]

Thanks -- that's helpful. If others have more to fill in, please do!

[MrBrown]

@'ShaneH -good stuff!

 

(This is going to be really good,……..or I might get kicked off the forum for this analysis! Hahaha )

 

To better understand, how a skier can find his best “balance point” for his skiing style, let’s examine the different weight distributions points of each skiing style? (in general)

 

Different skiing styles may cause the skier to have his weight distributed differently over the ski . This is due to different hip and shoulder placement of each skiing style.

 

I am using the 2 examples and videos below to demonstrate the GENERAL DIFFERENCE in the weight distribution over the ski.

 

Medium to Exaggerated Knee Bend - (Badal, Miller, Badal, MB, TW)

 

Example - Badal’s video

 

 

 

Generally Speaking

 

1) With increased knee bend the hips will move slightly back.

2) Shoulders will move slightly more forward

3) Increase in weight being distributed on the front foot forcing more ski in the water

4) Tendency to have more equal weight being distributed over both feet

5) The heel of the back foot may be slightly pulled up

6) Using the HIPs as a counter weight against the pull of the boat.

7) Takes greater leg endurance and lower back strength to ski in this position

 

 

Challenges

 

1)In this low and leveraged position,…as the knees become more bent it becomes more and more difficult for the skier to keep the elbows to the vest, hips up, shoulders back, and the handle low and in the pocket.

 

Once the elbows are separated from the vest, the skier quickly begins to receive the pull of the boat through shoulders (high anchor point) and starts to lead with the shoulders and trail with the hips. This will place an increasing amount of weight on the front foot and the front of the ski which could lead to a possible "out the front" fall.

 

 

 

Little Knee Bend – (CP, Jeff Rodgers, Lucky, Dr. Morgan, Schnitz, Karina, Scott, Hintinger)

 

 

Example - Scott’s old video, (although he has modified his style since then)

 

 

 

 

Generally speaking

 

1) As the legs straighten, the hips will move forward

2) Shoulders will more easily fall back

3) More weight will be distributed on the back foot than the front foot,

forcing more of the front of the ski out of the water

4) Top of the front foot may be pulling up slightly on binding

5) Using the shoulders falling back as counter weight against the pull of the boat

6) Takes less leg strength and lower back strength to ski in this position

 

 

Challenges

 

1) Because the skier is standing so tall and not using his hips as a counter weight, it is critical that the skier keeps a leveraged body position by locking his elbows to his vest which will pull his hips forward, allowing his upper body (the counter weight) to fall away, with the handle low and in the pocket (low anchor point).

 

 

Conclusion

 

So whatever skiing style a skier chooses, the main focus is always attempting to keep

the hips in a forward and centered position, the shoulders back, and the elbows locked to the vest. This will help ensure that the skier is always stacked and in the most leveraged position possible, with a low anchor point.

 

“Elbows Locked to the Vest” is how all skiers of all different skiing styles can ensure that their...............

- hips are always as far forward and centered as possible,

- shoulders are as far back as possible

- chest is out

- arms are straight

- handle is low as possible (low anchor point)

- the body is as stacked as possible

- and that the skier maintains the BEST BALANCED STANCE as possible.

 

“Elbows Locked to the Vest” will help ensure that the skier is at the best “balance point” possible for his skiing style! If a skier is finding it difficult to get his elbows locked to his vest, then he should possibly attempt to stand taller until he can achieve this fundamental body position.

 

From this solid foundation, the skier can either choose to ski taller or more compressed, but can always maintain a balanced and stacked position for his skiing style!

 

[Horton]

My words http://www.ballofspray.com/general-ski-news/54-basic-relaxed-position

 

 

[matthewbrown]

@skiing2heaven --Conclusion

 

So whatever skiing style a skier chooses, the main focus is always keeping the hips in a forward and centered position. This will ensure that the skier is always stacked and in the most leveraged position possible, with a low anchor point.

 

“Elbows Locked to the Vest” is how all skiers of all different skiing style can ensure that their...............

- hips are always as far forward and centered as possible,

- shoulders are as far back as possible,

- handle is low as possible (low anchor point),

- the body is as stacked as possible

- and the skier maintains the BEST BALANCED STANCE as possible.

 

 

That is a nice breakdown and I don't think Horton will be kicking you off the forum...

 

but, shoulders are as far back as possible?? What do you mean by this? Back toward the tail of the ski, or back away from the boat?

 

If we are talking about the "stick" style as it's called then we only need to refer to the greatest skier ever with this style, Chris Parrish...at no point in the video below(slightly into 2 and 4) is he leaning his shoulders back toward the tail of the ski...his body is in perfect alignment except the slight bobble out of 2 and 4(because he was too far back on the ski coming into those turns) but he gets it right back and centered on the ski....this is the definition of balanced...again, look at his gate cut..perfectly balanced with shoulders in align with the hips in align with the rope(just like Nate)...any further back with his shoulders toward the tail of the ski would shift his center of mass toward the tail, slowing his accelartion, creating excessive load...perhaps you meant "away" from the boat with the shoulders, rather then "back" and we are saying the same thing. I would rather be slightly squatty on the ski but centered like Badal, then stacked but leaning my shoulders "back" toward the tail of the ski. Of course ideally, I would rather look like the man below in the video.

 

 

[A_B]

I'm thinking S2H is saying lean away from boat vs tail of ski. Leaning to the tail would probably result in the top jumping up at the wake.

 

How flexible a person is also dictates style. Some of the west coasters caused my back to hurt just looking at them.

[MarcusBrown]

Ski2Heaven sounds an awful lot like R Marking. Same old cloudy thinking, just with a new name.

 

You can't hide behind different "style's", "experiences" or "physiological builds" and think you're going to fool physics. However warm and cozy all that may sound....the real world still waits for us when we put our ski on and pull outside the wakes each time.

 

If you want to be efficient, light on the rope, fast, etc....you have to use your ski efficiently: aka, accelerate by moving over your front foot.

 

If you want to see how great pulling up with your front foot works for efficiency, try it at the end of the lake when you're dropping and see how much spray you get in the face.

 

Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world because he moves his center of mass more than anyone else....and his legs are able to keep up.

 

Our "Usain Bolt" does pretty much the same thing...only on water, and its why he can run more balls than the rest of us: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6kqh0kY6V4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC7629F2F254C2590

[Leopold]

Well, Marcus, me, as a long - medium line skier can understand quite clearly what ski2heaven means. I can put my ski on, pull outside of the wake and think to lock my elbows to the vest. I can't think in moving my center of mass... to where? when? It doesn't mean anything to me, the same with the idea of moving over my front foot.

The videos of Robert Marking are quite helpful for me too.

[MrBrown]

@mattewbrown wrote - but, shoulders are as far back as possible?? What do you mean by this? Back toward the tail of the ski, or back away from the boat?

 

A skier should attempt to get his shoulders back in a comfortable leaning position that his body mechanics will allow, and not uncomfortably force the leaning position. The goal should be having the "elbows locked to the vest".

 

The shoulders should fall back comfortably away from the pull of the boat.

 

Here is a great example of a skier with great knee bend, in leveraged position, getting his elbows to his vest, with his hips forward, and a comfortable lean away from the boat.............

 

(Please compare this MB video with Badal's and see the difference between MB and Badal.

 

 

 

Great skiing MB!!!!

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Matthewbrown - If we are talking about the "stick" style as it's called then we only need to refer to the greatest skier ever with this style, Chris Parrish

 

Parrish's coach for years was another "stick style" skier named Lucky Lowe. I believe that Parrish has also learned a lot from another "stick skier", Schnitz. I feel that Lucky and Schnitz both ski with a little more weight distributed on their back foot than Parrish.

 

I agree that CP is the greatest "stick skier" at 36mph, but the greatest ever "stick skier" at 34mph is Jeff Rodgers. Rodgers skis with a little more weight distributed on his back foot than CP.

 

Isn't it a coincidence, that both the Mens 34mph and the Mens 36mph World Slalom Records are held by "stick skiers"? The sad thing is,...how many pro coaches are teaching the fine art of "stick skiing" today? Lucky, Schnitz, Parrish!

 

When skiing with Schnitz and Hintringer at OKEE, Schnitz and Hintringer personally taught me the finer points of skiing the "stick style". I am just using the same terminology that Schnitz and Hintringer uses.

 

-Schnitz has always said that the ski accelerates the fastest and is fastest on the tail with less load.

-Schnitz has always said that when skiing the "stick Style", more weight will be distributed on the tail of ski, and there will be a slight lifting up of the front foot against the top of the front binding while pulling.

-Schniz has always said that "stick style" is the most efficient style of skiing!

[MrBrown]

Oops, I understand Brent. No problem. I am sorry for gettin' carried away. I will back off and take it easy! Thanks for the opportunity to participate on this great BOS forum though! :-)

[Than_Bogan]

@Marcus Firstly, I'm very glad to have you along here, and hope you'll continue on this thread for a bit.

 

But as someone with moderate-to-low athletic ability with a short-term goal to get from about 0.01% at 34/-38 to more like 20%, I have to keep demanding specifics because by muscles aren't smart enough to use general concepts. And so, with that as prologue, let me start firing away!

 

You wrote: "Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world because he moves his center of mass more than anyone else....and his legs are able to keep up."

 

It's impossible to disagree with this. But that's because it's definitional. In a race, the entity whose c.o.m. traverses the course in the least time is declared the winner. (Ok, technically some reorientation of the body relative to the c.o.m. at both the start and finish could change the outcome slightly, e.g. "leaning at the tape," but that's a distant secondary effect.)

 

The question is: HOW? I can't just decide to put my c.o.m. forward and cross my fingers that my legs will keep up. I will instead simply fall on my face.

 

When it comes to improving my skiing, it also comes down to: HOW?

 

So I echo Leopold's sentiment. I can do some of the things that s2h suggests, and I can tell if I'm not doing them. In order to be able to use c.o.m.-based advice or "balanced stance" advice, I have to be able to do BOTH of the following:

 

a) identify that I am or am not doing it

b) know what to do differently if I'm not doing it. (And this could include off-water changes, like getting stronger in a certain way, leaner, etc. But it has to be something that I can try to do and then determine if I've done it.)

 

Please help me!

[jimbrake]

The problem with the instruction to pin your elbows to your vest and pull your shoulders back (although i agree you need to keep your elbows tight to the vest), is that you can do that and still not be "balanced" or "over your feet" and you certainly can do those things without moving your COM forward. Therefore, you can do those things and not accelerate as much as you need to. Do we agree that you need to accelerate from the turn to the wake to be successful in slalom? So, you're not sure how to move your COM forward? If you were standing on the bed of a flatbed truck and you knew the truck was about to start moving and you didn't want to fall over, what would you do? You'd move your COM forward. You'd lean forward a bit. You'd just do it. It shouldn't require a detailed description of how you use the fine motor skills in your ankles, knees, hips, etc. to move forward relative to your feet. If you don't move your COM with or ahead of your feet as you accelerate out of the turn, then you are applying the brakes and the gas at the same time. If I were watching you from the boat and saw this problem, I'd probably say a variety of things to get you to move your COM forward, but I might start with:

 

- ski back to the handle, don't reach for it or turn your shoulders.

- drive your inside shoulder ahead of your feet as you come back to the handle

- keep your "core" over your feet or trying to drive ahead of your feet as you approach the wake. This includes your hips so don't take this to mean leaning forward at the waist.

 

The difference between the "stick" skiers and the, whatever, "non-stick" (teflon?) skiers is not movement of COM, it's the amount of or lack of bend in the ankles, knees, waist, torso. It's just a different stance, but they are also moving their COM forward.

[ForrestGump]

I don't think anyone can tell you how to drive your core mass forward. You just have to do it. I will say this, I don't think you can learn to do it until you've found the balance point on your ski. I know that for me, I hunted for years for the balance point. Finally this year I got on a ski that allowed my body to use it. Not just find a static balance point, but allow me to find balance while at the same time harnessing good skiing posture. Because you can find a balance point with your arms out and your butt dropped. You just have no power to resist the boat and maintain outward direction like that. For me that entails elbows in, hips up, shoulders level, etc. Now, I definitely don't find it on every pass on all the buoys. But when I do, I am very cognizant of the fact that I'm able to control my core mass with my ankles and knees. And when I can do that, I feel like superman! LOL Now, if I can only get to where I can do it 4 out 6 buoys on average I'll be killing it!

 

One thing I've come to realize in skiing with guys like Mueller and Chad is that although they appear to be very still on the ski, they are actually still from the knees up and their ankles and knees are very dynamic. I think that is a characteristic of a LOT of elite level skiers and like Matt Brown says is why they have the ability to come back to that center/nuetral position.

[Razorskier1]

I agree with Shane that it is the quiet upper body that determines your position on the ski. Once the upper body starts moving forward and back it becomes a sh** show. Over 10 years ago I started working on being quiet on the ski, keeping my upper body as still as I could and over the bindings. It definitely improved my skiing. For me I also find that skiing more like CP is just more natural for me. I think about it as being tall on the ski with my front foot pressing down into the binding, while keeping my handle low and close to the body (elbows in). I feel like skiing tall gives me terrific leverage and creates low effort skiing so long as I keep my handle tight to my pocket. Let the handle out and that taller lever doesn't work.

[6balls]

Funny thing is I ski the entire pass better over my front binding if I'm there in the gate pull out and glide. Best simple tourney advice from Razor each time shortening at the starting dock: "Stay over your bindings".