Explain to me how a shorter rope is more difficult.

[jipster43]

@Taelan28 you get the prize for starting the best threads in a while. Email and I will send you some swag.

 

No kidding! I looked at the first couple of posts and thought, wow! A day later I saw 37 new posts! There's no way I'm going to open that thread - guaranteed to not have any cool pics or video. But for some inexplicable reason I opened it and got consumed by this ridiculous conversation on slalom theory. And as Scot Chipman pointed out, I may actually benefit as a skier from this dogshat!

[jipster43]

And for the record Horton, Ballofspray has given me far more than I anticipated getting from joining a waterski website.

 

I feel like a dork for admitting that publicly, but galdernit! It's the dagblam truth. This place gives me a sense of community and a first class education. Gotta' love it! However, I must curse the "Pray for Snow Party" I just attended as it has rendered me embarrassingly sentimental.

[danbirch]

@Sethski A BIG thanks to Seth. That was very well explained and appreciated!

[Gloersen]

@Horton No, you can't have my Bud Light!

[DW]

And the site is led by some guy who is in to rocketry!

[MarcusBrown]

@Horton , the way you pretend to not understand or comprehend 99% of this stuff doesn't fool me. That's a compliment to you.

 

And as OB said, this topic seems to do round and round...cool thing is each time it goes around it looks a little bit different.

 

Anything we humans can put into words or equations is just an approximation of reality...of whats actually happening.

 

At the end of the dissertation, when its time to go ski, I believe very strongly that the more theory and mechanics (correct theory and mechanics) you understand, the higher you're potential on the water....and the more you will ENJOY the ride. That doesn't mean that everyone has the ability to "think" intelligently off the water, and then suddenly shut all that off and simply "ski/feel/react" when they are on the water....but I think that is the goal. Ultimate understanding off the water....ultimate athleticism on the water.

 

I've said it a million times and I'll say it 1 more....knowing where to be in the course at a given point is great...but even more fundamental is the principle of efficient movement and how to use all forces properly: Gravity, force from the water on your ski/feet (and how you direct that force thru your body), force from the rope on your hands (and how you direct that force thru your body). If you can't get your body to do what it needs to do to get you to where you know you need to be.....then it doesn't matter whether you understand ideal ski paths or not. And if you don't understand how to move with your body in the first place, then you sure as heck are very unlikely to get your body to do what it "needs" to do to get you to were you know (or think) you need to be in the course.

 

Bonus tongue twister points if you can read that last little bit out loud

 

 

[Razorskier1]

I appreciate the comments here from guys who have run 38 and 39 off (pros) as you really hit on some points I have felt behind the boat. When I first approached -38 it seemed impossible, and it was precisely the timing issue that was the cause. Pull too long and hard, fast at the ball, turn in and there was nothing there. My brother (6balls) watched one day and just told me to take it easy and "let the ball go by". He said I didn't need to turn in right away at the ball, just let it go by, be patient, then turn in and go. I ran the next pass easily (wish that would happen every time!). Anyway, my point is that it becomes more technical than physical. When I run 38 right I feel like it is slow, easy, and that I don't exert any effort at all in the lean. That tells me that it really is about managing the pendulum correctly and understanding the physics of where you are vs. the boat.

[Ed_Johnson]

Another point that I feel needs to be addressed is managing the forces exerted on the skier from Zero Off. This has been a real game changer for me over the last couple of years. I have had to completely redesign my technique in order to maximize and take advantage of the forces involved. Especially since you have nine selections to choose from. This becomes very critical as the line gets shorter. It becomes more mental than physical in knowing how to hide and when to maximize your leverage to make ZO work for you and not against you.

 

What helps me most is to keep in mind the Eagles song, "Take It Easy."

[thager]

Horton, I do not understand 99% of this thread either, but I like the girls!

[ral]

What I know now is that the momentum the skier carries behind the boat is large enough to break your neck if the interface with the water suddenly becomes your head instead of your ski...

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown said " fundamental is the principle of efficient movement and how to use all forces properly: Gravity, force from the water on your ski/feet (and how you direct that force thru your body), force from the rope on your hands (and how you direct that force thru your body). If you can't get your body to do what it needs to do to get you to where you know you need to be.....then it doesn't matter whether you understand ideal ski paths or not."

 

I could not agree more. There is a concept that has been floating around in my head for a year or more along these lines. In the end I think that to improve ball count the pure math may be superfluous. It is interesting and pure math is easier for some of you to get down on paper but a clear understanding of what is needed to get from Point A to point B, what forces need to act on the rope, what forces need to act on the ski in each axis and how the body should be positioned to make all this happen seem more practical.

 

When I ski better it is because I have changed the forces at the three key points (ski, handle, center of mass). If I do those things correctly I have a better line or more control of my line. I have worked some on being lighter on the line and for me that means a shallower path* but when the rope gets short and I go all "Frankenstein running from fire", how I manipulate those three points is all that matters.

 

*(not sure how I feel about this. It feels great when I do it but I am not able to do it consistently. I explained what I was trying to do to Mapple and he said it was exactly backwards. )

 

Hmmm I just remembered... I do know an elite skier with a civil engineering degree.

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown along the topic above. I think it would be interesting to talk skiing concepts by only referencing the three points I name above. No talk of knees or shoulders or line of sight. I not saying that being coached that way would make me ski better but it seems like it would be in interesting experiment. I suspect that you already think/talk this way to some extent. Darn it I have got to come ski in Chico some time!

[Horton]

WAY OFF TOPIC

@DW I have not mixed my own rocket fuel in a long time. I do have some old igniter cord but not enough for ATF to care and I do not have any ammonium perchlorate around anymore. I miss it. Maybe I will quit skiing again and go try for my level 3 cert again.

 

[Darth]

Calculate every possible destination along their last known trajectory.

[AdamCord]

Very plain and simple: as the rope gets shorter it gets harder to create cross course speed (the good kind of speed), and it gets easier to create down course speed (the bad kind).

[Horton]

@Adam Cord

Well that clears everything up. You are an engineer, right?

[AdamCord]

I see no reason to go mathing up the place :)

[MarcusBrown]

@Horton completely agree. You're welcome up here anytime.

 

Happy Birthday dude...and a job well done with this BOS place you have provided for everyone in our community!

[dn]

Horton - could you elaborate on the conversation you had with Mapple? Sounds interesting.

 

Marcus - the section of your post Horton quoted is undeniably true, but could you explain what you'd suggest skiers do to use force efficiently and how you put your body where/when it needs to be? I'd like to quote another part of your post, that "the more theory and mechanics (correct theory and mechanics) you understand, the higher you're potential on the water....and the more you will ENJOY the ride."

 

All - I agree with comments by many of you that math has little meaning to you. That's why I never post any math in anything I write - I only mention the general approach I take with the math & physics. But showing the results of that analysis, like the skier path, speed, and force at each point in the course is the kind of thing I can directly relate to my skiing, and I hope you guys can too. If I'm just wasting your time with it, let me know and I'll keep my thoughts to myself.

[MarcusBrown]

Dave, your analysis is top notch. The more math the better.

 

Not sure how to teach skiers how to use force more efficiently, short of working with them in person, or at least in an interactive environment.

[Dusty]

I don't have the math to do the calculations any more, but I think most of the posters have a grasp of at least some of it. FWIW- I have watched a LOT of skiers from the boat. At 15 off there is line tension to use if your speed at the ball is manageable. At 38 and shorter there is little observable line tension at the buoy, and the skiers don't get significant tension until penetrating back to C/L. At 39 1/2 they need to be even further towards C/L. They have converted downcourse speed/energy at the ball to move across course. As they move across the boat then 'picks them up' at a much more acute angle, the shorter they go. That is the acceleration phase and it IS visibly shorter as the line shortens. How it's done I don't know but you can see the differences. The ability to manage that changing load 'vector'seems to separate the successses.

[Martin1980]

Bump for @H2OkieNC and others.

 

My main takeaway is as the rope shortens your acceleration phase is less which gives you less time to do the same amount of work to get to the same buoy width. One other main thing of note is as the line shortens your overall speed is actually LESS since you travel less distance in the same amount of time, max speed behind the boat is higher.