Slalom rope-release discussion thread

[Than_Bogan]

In a few different places scattered around the forum folks have dropped mention of a slalom rope-release mechanism.

 

Thought I'd try to unify that discussion.

 

My first question is: Ignoring the mechanics of how it would work, how could it be operated? I'm having trouble believing the observer could react fast enough to reliably save the skier from serious injury in the event of something getting stuck in the handle.

 

I guess I could see it if the policy is just to release the rope pre-emptively in any "ridiculous amounts of slack" scenario, but then some crazy guy is gonna get mad that somebody released a rope he wanted to try to hold onto.

 

My ski partner and I often easy off the throttle for huge slack hits in practice, but I can't really see how to translate that concept to a tournament.

 

Obviously, feel free to take this discussion in any direction -- the above is just a seed.

[Deke]

@ThanBogan the thing that first comes to my mind about easing off the throttle is more slack and a greater chance to get tangled. As far as the release mechanism goes, maybe something with two phases that operate independently of each other. A breakaway device with a soft release out wide and a hard or no release right behind the boat? Sounds complicated.

[Horton]

Great idea. Can not see how possible or practical

[crashman]

anyone have any sense what the line load is during an entanglement event vs normal skiing?

[SDNAH2OSKIER]

The line load could be a fraction of the max line load during a pull and still cause a lot of injury. This is an interesting nut to crack and worth talking about.

[Than_Bogan]

@crashman My slightly-educated guess is that it's quite a lot more at the peak of normal skiing than it is during an entanglement. Directly behind the boat, the skier is pushing against the ski. When entanglement occurs, the skier is just being dragged.

 

So I think a force-based automated release would be doomed.

[ScaredOfCorbets]

I'd imagine the muscular boys skiing 68 and 69 inch skis would put a 500-600 lb load range on occasion behind the boat. At entanglement, it'd be far less. So, that eliminates load releasing type mechanism. It is definitely a tough nut to crack. We definitely have to think outside of the box for this one.

 

Also, many skiers do not have observer. And even if you do, when do you pull, and are you fast enough?

[crashman]

@ThanBogan makes sense

maybe a video tracking device that can detect deviation from the ski's normal path- not sure how it would work but if my Xbox can tell me my wife if her zoomba moves are correct there should be a way to do this

[Jody_Seal]

I am going to give the long answer on this one "Hell No!"

 

However please feel free to post videos of your experimentation !

 

[Horton]

I will have Richelle get right on it

[footloose42]

@crashman, can you your wife confirm if Zoomba helps improve ski form?

[rodltg2]

Good luck enginnering this, but what about some sensors on handle mid way thru the bridle. If it senses anything breaking the barrier the rope releases.

[boarditup]

Being one of the show skiing types - I have a release on my boat all of the time. I have slalomed on the release and had a couple pre-planned "surprise" releases to test out the concept. I have been released once in an OTF fall. If you have a diligent observer, you can be released from the boat at the starting stages of a fall. Of course, you may have been able to pull it out and ski away from the trouble, but once the rope is released from the boat, you are done. If you have a full load, you may have some recoil from the load being released. The bitter end of the rope has not reached the skier in my few scenarios and experiments. So, is it safer every time? No. Are you less likely to suffer severe head, arm, or other contact trauma with the rope/handle? Yes. Could you strike your own face with the handle in certain circumstances? Plausible, but I have not seen this, yet.

 

So, there is no perfect solution. I tend to use the release whenever possible with beginners as they sometimes forget to let go and to have body parts in weird combinations with the handle. On the tower, 100% of the time as handle passes are problematic with handle injuries - especially for beginners and those learning a 540 or more.

 

Karl

[SDNAH2OSKIER]

I am working on a tractor beam.

 

[Wish]

Time machine would be the ticket and about as plausible.

[danbirch]

Having used one, I agree with Karl. They work. An attentive and educated (i.e. familiar with skiers habits/style) observer will (in MOST cases) release the skier prior to the line going tight (likely saving him from an injury). I'm sure that there are some instances that he could not save the skier. I would rather have 80% success rate, than 100% loss rate without the mechanism.

 

Also, it is imperative that the slack rope in the boat be properly organized, so it doesn't grab anything/anyone in the event of a release. Otherwise, it could be dangerous.

 

As mentioned before, #1 priority is to work on your balance and skiing with a TIGHT line at ALL times. Next, consider ANY safety measures that you believe in. Ski safe!

[crashman]

@footloose42 I'm told with good authority that it can help with hip movement through the gate but may result in tensor fasciae latae strain

[SkiJay]

A human operated release - A ticket to disaster. First, now you have to have two ski buddies to go skiing. Second, the way one of my buddies drives the boat, there's no way I want him on a hair trigger. Third, we can go for months, even years, without seeing anyone get close to sticking their head or arm through the handle, so how can we expect the trigger-man to recognize pending disaster in a split second freak fall. Finally, a false pull can also be deadly. Drew Ross had a career ending injury due to a surprise rope "release."

 

An engineered mechanical release - The manufacturer better have deep pockets and a great team of lawyers. If it doesn't release, sue the manufacturer. If it releases unexpectedly, sue the manufacturer. It's a sad reality, that almost assures us that this device may never arrive.

[MattP]

It's an extreme sport that has risks...

[footloose42]

@SkiJay that's about what I was thinking. Liability will forever keep any company from producing one.

[A_B]

I don't think using a release for slalom would be like for a toehold trick pass where you pull on every possible scenario.

 

An electronic trigger vs manual pull would be nice.

 

I would think most of the injuries we have seen posted would still happen, but maybe not be as severe, as it takes a while for the boat to settle vs instant release.

 

Most of my skiing is Observerless, so that wouldn't address that.

 

Nascar is an inherenty dangerous sport, but I havent seen anyone driving in a t shirt and no helmet.

A reasonable effort could be made to help prevent some injuries or the severity of them.

 

Maybe the driver background check will help?

[ForrestGump]

Tell me you're kidding about the driver background check.

[eleeski]

I tried making an electric trick release. It was too hard to time.

 

The Saf T Pop trick release was the most unuseable device ever marketed. Automatic tension based releases do not work for skiing.

 

Accept the risks of doing things or stay on the couch watching TV and get fat and have a heart attack.

 

Eric

[h20ya]

What if u have a computer record the normal rope tension patterns during slalom course skiing. If u get a large enough data set I am pretty sure it could identify an abnormal event ie arm in bridle. This information could then be incorporated into a release device which could do automatic as well as manual release. Expensive but considering the amount of money we spend not inconceivable.

[klindy]

Ever have a rope or handle break while you're skiing? I have...you test it...please attach my rope using the loops to the pylon.

[Than_Bogan]

@h20ya I would doubt that a very dangerous pattern is reliably differentiable from the full envelope of "normal" patterns -- i.e. all the ones that could mean the skier doesn't want the handle released.

 

In fact, the fatal event (head directly through handle on an OTF), might not exhibit any tension pattern difference from a fully successful run until it's too late.

 

Note: The easy part of engineering is telling you what ISN'T going to work. I am in no way claiming I have a better idea. Indeed my lack of a good idea is why I started this thread.

 

I'm intrigued that those who have tried the manual release found it pretty helpful. I wasn't expecting that.

[h20ya]

I think it is easier for an observer to release during slalom than during trick skiing (think how fast a trick skier falls when he catches an edge). The experience of the release person is key in both cases but with the right observer doable.

[Horton]

If sensors could tell when both hands are off the handle I could see it. Otherwise i just want to see the video of folks getting released at the wakes.

[GAJ0004]

It would have to be the size of a barefoot boom clamp to take all the torque. I wonder what has changed that so many people are getting body parts stuck in handles. When I brought it up in the other thread I was thinking if they could have released the rope if it could have reduced the severity of his injuries. It is going to take at least 3 or more seconds to stop the boat and take the tension out of the rope. Theoretically it would be possible to release the rope in 2 seconds or less. I never heard about people getting their heads stuck in the handles until the last few years. I wonder what has changed that seems to be making that happen more.

[A_B]

@ShaneH - yes. ;). I have a delaminated sense of humor if you haven't caught on.

 

I have broke my share, (and then some), of ropes and handles, and every one of them behind the boat, but, have walked away from all of them. Bruised and one time bloody, but I bet anyone of the guys messed up by handle incidents would trade up.

[danbirch]

@h20ya You are correct. They will work as you mentioned. They also will not pre-release, unless someone pulls the cord. They are very strong, yet, release the instant that it's triggered.

 

The real problems, however, aren't if they work. They are having the right person as a 3rd, that will pay attention. The 3rd can't just be a guy on vacation, obviously. The 2nd problem, is you probably won't be getting any video to train with...

[ThePantsManCan]

Somebody needs to make a release that is designed in such a way so as not to release completely or should I say, it does not release instantaneously. Let's say the maximum tension a pro skier puts on the rope is somewhere around 800lb (BTW, I have no knowledge of how much they actually put on a rope)

 

Take a ski run, and theoretically put over 800 LBS on the line(because you held onto a slack hit), the release triggers, but simply let's out extra line until the tension on the rope drops to zero. This way, nobody whacks the handle into their temple or ribcage AND if an appendage had been caught within the bridle perhaps the damage could be lessened.

 

I'm willing to believe a good group of engineers could design such a system to accommodate two types of falls. Maybe the rope could have a very fast intial release, (for arm through the handle falls) and then a higher tension/slower "second stage" release (for slack hits and the like). Of course nothing is going to save anyone from an actual broken rope/handle.

 

I realize I am nobody in the slalom world but I really like my idea. I'm not going to stand by it and say its the only way, but I think there has to be a device that takes more human error out of the equation and operates without human intervention... but... Perhaps this release I've described could also have a manual override where an observer in the boat could decide to release the line completely just like tricks.

 

What do you all say? I think there is a lot of room for reasonableness in a new design.

[SkiJay]

There can be a fair amont of rope on the floor after a few shortenings. You sure wouldn't want your foot on any of it as it's ripped out of the boat.

[DW]

I think JTH's thought is on a possible option that could work, I was thinking of a pressure sensor in the rubber handle material. The challenge is how light one's grip actually does get at times so there probably is not a good enough signal to make that idea work.

[ScaredOfCorbets]

I had the same thought on the handle after Horton's post. You also tie that to Zero Off/ PP so it is only enable in the course, otherwise you drop the rope into the lake after each set, or just messing around at the end of the lake. Wifi signal? hard line?

[Horton]

If hands are not griping the handle and the rope is tight there might be an issue.

[klindy]

@SkiJay mentioned an important "unintended consequence"...If a serious short line skier ends up needing to be released, what happens with 20 odd feet of rope on the floor in the boat? I can probably count on one hand the number of trick skiers I've seen in 25 or so years who have attached a rope on a loop shorter than the 'long loop'. Primary reason is not only the feet and other assorted items (and body parts) in the boat but also the potential of getting the 'trailing end' of the rope caught up on some part of the hardware (engine cover, pylon, release, etc.) on the way out. And of the trick skiers I've seen use a 'shorter' loop, what's left is never more than 2-3'.

 

Also, as a trick skier, the rule of thumb is "if in doubt, pull the pin". At slower speeds and generally directly behind the boat, the worst that happens is an earlier than necessary fall. With slalom and the higher speeds, greater loads, sharper angles, longer rope, the end results can be unpredictable at best.

 

I sincerely feel badly for those who have suffered devistating injures (or worse) getting caught in the handle or rope. However I fear suggesting a solution may be worse than the original problem.

 

A couple points to think about - how come this same problem doesn't occur (or far less often) in the jump event when many of the falls are far more 'unpredictable'? Likewise, why don't you see hard shell bindings (with some kind of release mechanism) in jump? Point being, the potential for premature ejection (or not releasing) is worse than the current 'system' of rubber bindings.

 

Surely there's some kind of device that "could work" in most cases, but what about the "rest of the scenarios"? It may be hard to improve the current system.

[6balls]

Don't go pulling a pin on me. In an OTF I have some control over how I go down b/c the line is still there for me. I land on my back and glide to a stop.

I also don't want some pin puller to hit me in an over-turn/over-load. I know what it feels like when the rope breaks and I take the wake in the ribs.

The only time I see this as helpful is an appendage through the handle which is so rare that complacency is likely there on the pin puller anyway. This is far different than pulling pins on trickers, swivel skiers or barefooters where the pin is pulled on toe tricks with frequency.

[Horton]

Another issue:

 

Lets say Dirt is skiing and I am on the release. Do you really think I am not going to pop it at the wakes? Have we met? I mean would you trust me?

 

Maybe I should not drink and post in serious threads.

[TylerR]

@horton I trust you implicitly.

[Horton]

@TylerR I would not release you

 

 

 

until your hardest pass

[TylerR]

@horton I trust you to have my safety first and foremost in your mind...

[MattP]

@TylerR @Horton would release me on my pull out for my first gate...

[Horton]

@MattP

yea I would and try to act like it was an accident but I suck at lying

[Dusty]

Um. If you can get a release designed, and want to use it in tournaments- it will require a rules change, because the rope is supposed to be attached/looped over the pylon and a release, (legal in trick right now) is not legal to use in slalom, as I understand the rules. Also some of the trick releases effectively change the length of the rope- legal in trick, but not in slalom. I could be mistaken...

[danbirch]

Not that there's any anticipation of a release to be added to slalom skiing, but I'm not so sure that any length is added for slalom. Isn't the measurement from the pylon to the ball? If so, that doesn't change, even with a release added (as long as the added release stays static on the pylon, or attached to the pylon stationary, not swinging with the rope).

 

In other words, the rope is still connected to the center point of the boat. (that being because the release is solid, which creates a new pivot point) Now, if you were to add, say 6" of rope to your rope, since the rope would be flexible, the pivot point would NOT change, and you would be adding the 6" from the distance from the pylon (pivot point) to the ball; which is a no-no.

 

That said, I have seen a picture of a release added to the swivel portion of the pylon (not below it, fixed static). That would extend the length, and would not be legal, unless a reduction was made in the rope's original length (as with a switch).

[klindy]

@danbirch that assumes any release wouldn't rotate on the pylon. One of the things I inferred above was that the angle from the pylon is much narrower for trick skiing. One of the issues with early trick release design was the rope getting "hung up" in the release that worked best from directly behind the boat.

 

That said, I'd agree that I don't anticipate a release (as we conventionally think about it) would be added to slalom.

 

Now thinking out of the box - since there's electronic control of the throttle with the speed control system I wonder if you could sense trouble through a sharp change in the load on the engine? You'd have to map a lot of data to get the conditions sorted out but if you could "trigger" something electronically, you could know fast enough to react through any number of options - shutting down the throttle, releasing the rope (solenoid or other electromechanical means), etc.

[SkiJay]

@Klindy Just promise you won't get Microsoft to do the software, okay.

[danbirch]

Yes, you are correct. I edited my answer to clarify that point, because I just remembered that I saw a picture of a release that did swivel (which mine does not).

 

I think it would be very difficult to have the boat understand if a skier was in trouble, since a lot of times, all that is needed is to go off balance, then fall into slack (a death trap). Since skiers often release completely off the rope (like going into a ball) with a little slack, it would seem difficult for the computer to differentiate between "normal slack" and trouble slack. Either way, there is no load on the rope.

 

I had thought of having a laser sensor on the handle, so if both hands are off the handle, the lasers would "see" each other, and automatically trigger the release mechanism (since you have to be holding onto the handle at all times, with at least 1 hand). I believe it could be done, but someone would have to invest into it, and there would be a few hurdles.

[jipster43]

I'm all for handle guards, but I hate operating trick releases. Gives me an ulcer. Makes my hands sweat. Please don't make me do it when someone is slaloming!

 

A couple of weeks ago I saw a fella' fall on his 35' off pass and still run it.... If a release mechanism had been there, he may have knocked himself out. He definitely would not have run the pass. That would have been a shame.

 

I vote no on the slalom release.