speed control options

[WBLskier]

can someone tell me what options I have to add speed control to my 1998 malibu echelon? I think it is a Gen II monsoon engine. Upgrading the boat is not an option, so I would need to deal with whatever options (if any) are workable on that boat. Thanks.

[rodltg2]

Perfect Pass products or if you want a speed based paddle wheel system good for recreational skiing or wakeboarding you have Hydrophase.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Best option - you can put PP Stargazer in it and not have to cut a hole in your hull for the paddle wheel. Stargazer is a better system anyway plus if you really want the old school PP it's in the software that comes with SG.

[BraceMaker]

Anyone buy a hydrophase?

 

 

[GAJ0004]

Stargazer is the way to go. Now that there is no paddle wheel it should be easy to install.

The new version is very easy to set the baselines. You can set them in the open water since it works off GPS.

[WBLskier]

How do I know what model, version, etc to look for and does anyone have tips for what to know I buying used?

[6balls]

hydrophase????? PP classic or PP stargazer(nicer). The Echelon kicks a nice wake.

[rodltg2]

A few folks have installed it on wakeboard boats. It's not ideal for slalom as it is paddle wheel only. No Rpm mode

[Ed_Obermeier]

@WBLskier you need the Mechanical version of SG, NOT the Drive By Wire version. Probably going to be difficult to find used, don't see any on Ski-It-Again anyway. Plenty of DBW versions available but the Mechanical version doesn't get resold much.

[BraceMaker]

I looked for awhile for a mechanical SG, Ed is right, the servo versions aren't often removed from boats, you'll see plenty of DBW versions for sale because people often went Zero Off.

 

I looked into hydrophase for a bit - thought it would be a decent way to get "recreational" speed control, the mfg replied to my email -

 

"Our Ridesteady product was designed primarily for ‘wake sports’. Although you could set it to slalom skiing speeds, it likely wouldn’t give you the tow you’re looking for.

Speed controls designed for slalom skiing generally are RPM-based. This allows the skier to slow the boat down without an aggressive change in speed. Our Ridesteady product is solely paddlewheel-speed-based. While this makes for great wake-sport performance at lower speeds, it would probably be too aggressive in adjusting the speed for slalom skiers.

So…to answer your question, it would work great at the lower trick speeds (although around 16 MPH if you’re straddling your planing speed you could run into oscillations, as every speed control will do). However, you’d probably want to have an RPM-based system for your fast slalom speeds.

We are considering adding RPM-mode, but would likely be next season (spring / summer) before / if it’s available.

The Ridesteady system is quite simply and easy to teach / learn, but unfortunately we haven’t heard of anyone using it for slalom."

 

From the research I did, Hydrophase is trying to hit the market who runs loaded wake boats and is concerned primarily with true over the water speed.

[WBLskier]

What year did they start making dbw? If it is before that year then am I safe that it is mechanical? Any tips on where to find a used unit? Have the mechanical units changed much since they started making the dbw option?

[eleeski]

PP classic is great on a throttle cable boat. Get a paddlewheel and don't worry about drilling a hole in the hull. The paddlewheel is useful in so many ways. Also get and wire a switch. The switch allows a skilled driver to simulate ZO for slalom. Personally, I hate the feel of Stargazer. It's not worth the marginal ease of driving to get a pull that you will never feel in tournament. PP classic on a throttle cable boat with a paddlewheel and switch and a good driver gives a fantastic ride. As good as ZO.

DBW started around 2006. Ruined PP. Made ZO magic.

Eric

[Ed_Obermeier]

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you stated Eric. I know a couple of people with PP DBW in their boats - works like a charm, nice smooth even pull, times within .02 per segment and total every time. I know LOTS of folks still using PP. Don't personally know anyone using a Switch anymore, in fact I have one with wiring harness I've tried to sell 3X on here and no takers.

 

Agreed most of the people I know with PP any version aren't serious tournament skiers (probably 90+% of the total skier population are not serious tournament skiers). If you wanna emulate ZO get SG and the Z-Box add on, a lot closer in feel than trying to do it with a Switch (so I'm told anyway) and a lot less hassle once you get it all dialed in. No disrespect to eleeski, just a different view point.

[Waternut]

I looked at the Hydrophase Ridesteady pretty seriously last year. Here are my conclusions: First, they openly admit that their system is not good for speeds above 30mph. The price is $900 for a partially capable system and parts support may not be available in 4-5 years if yours ever craps out. On the other hand, the Perfect Pass Stargazer Wakeboard edition is excellent, can be upgraded, and the support has been proven for many years. The Wakeboard edition is basically the same thing as the 3 event version without the jump switch if I remember correctly. I know I use my wakeboard edition in 3 event mode. I bought my Stargazer from www.skiertoskier.com. They give you $100 off if you're a member of AWSA, INT, or something like that too. For me, the extra $200 for the perfect pass was a no brainer. If it had been a $500+ difference, I would've at least tried the Hydrophase.

[eleeski]

@Ed_Obermeier My experience with PP DBW problems comes from my trick experience. I fall a lot and need a quick reaquire of speed. PP Classic with a paddlewheel is great for this. PP DBW is horrible with too frequent speed runaways and missed locks. ZO is perfect.

 

I used a switch with my old boat and PP Classic for slalom. The transition to ZO was easy. Driving was easy with weight adjustments easily added or subtracted to compensate for wind. Maybe my time scatter was more than .02 but I skied well behind my boat, in tournaments and behind ZO boats. I have barely made any passes behind Stargazer - I personally hate the feel. Serious skier or not, I want a good feeling pull. And the Stargazer setup too often eludes even serious drivers.

 

@jfw432 For the amount of money we spend on the sport, the extra cost of the full 3 event mode is trivial. Getting the switch (which I contend can be useful for slalom) and the paddlewheel allows the freedom to pull and develop high level skiers in all disciplines.

 

I can't comment on Hydrophase as I have never seen or skied behind one. But more competition in the market is good.

 

Eric

[6balls]

My practice PB is on PP classic and matches my tourney PB on ZO...both last season. SG and SG w/z-box have been harder on me...though I find that particular lake where I ski those systems difficult in general. The more I ski ZO favorable technique regardless of system, the better I do.

[GAJ0004]

My practice PB is the same on Stargazer, and ZeroOff. I try not to slalom behind the same boat two days in a row so I don't just get used to one boat. My friends have a 200 MC 197 TT with PPSG and ZO.

 

[WBLskier]

Can a dbw unit be converted to a mechanical since the mechanical version is hard to find and is expensive new compared to the used ones available?

[BraceMaker]

@WBLskier - I spent some time researching this, you can always ask perfectpass about the specific used unit you are considering.

 

The DBW unit is designed to communicate with the engine's throttle management system.

 

The servo unit is designed to turn the servo motor.

 

I found no reference for being able to set one up to do the other activity.

[DW]

Out of curiosity, what does the paddlewheel offer when in slalom mode in PP Classic since I understand that PP classic does its control via RPM, not speed? Thx.

[eleeski]

@DW The paddlewheel is crucial for good speed control when tricking, kneeboarding and wakeboarding. When planning a ski boat, especially for a family, other activities than slalom must be considered. Your kids and guests will certainly need that feature. Beginning slalom is also well served by paddlewheel speed mode. To fully get the benefits of PP get a paddlewheel!

 

PP Classic in slalom mode gets inputs from RPM and the switch. The instantaneous response from the switch is similar to the ZO accelerometers. Most slalom skiers have adapted to ZO and their skiing has improved (significantly if you figure times are now right on). To get the most out of PP Classic, run the switch!

 

Eric

[DW]

@Eric: thanks, and like you, since I don't have an issue with a drill no problem...but I wonder if an air pitot would work, one could locate it on the nose just below the rub rail? Probably the signal conditioner would be a bit of a challenge. Thanks on the switch, I assume you mean the kx/px switch and settings.

[Chef23]

I ran PP classic without the paddle wheel and it was an inconvenience but not the end of the world. I used a hand held GPS to figure out trick speeds and slalom speeds below 24 when the RPM mode takes over. I did the installation myself and while there are lots of holes in the bottom of the boat I didn't trust myself to add another one.

[BraceMaker]

Air pitot would detect wind speed would it not?

 

For the purposes of low speed waterskiing the paddlewheel provides almost instant feed back in the speed of water below the hull. I assume the system dampens the data a bit to avoid surging.

 

GPS is the same with GPS based speed not speed over water, but I have had good feed back on stargazer from trickers.

[DW]

Yes, wind speed would skew the results, a Bart Simpson moment...so it would need to be a water pitot but probably more responsive and accurate than the ones commonly used in boats.

[Ed_Obermeier]

I don't have the manual for old school PP anymore but if memory serves the paddle wheel doesn't add any input past 22 mph. It does however give you a readout for lake water temperature. Of course that's only semi-accurate when you first put the boat in the water. Once the engine bay warms up (warming the area around the paddle wheel mount point) it skews the reading.

[eleeski]

@DW Pitot based speed measurement works great if there are NO weeds in your lake. My lake has enough weeds to render a pitot system useless. The paddlewheel was very resistant to weed induced errors.

 

@Chef23 I'm very picky about my trick speed. No RPM only driving has ever been good enough for me. The feel of the pull matters too, I hate ZO A - I use ZO C3. I love PP with a paddlewheel. Stargazer plus the paddlewheel just calibrates the paddlewheel (at least that's what I was told for the early Stargazer upgrade I was considering). Old PP Classic paddlewheels had to be calibrated occasionally (I always checked with a portable GPS right before a tournament) but the pull was consistently excellent. I have not skied behind a no paddlewheel Stargazer boat.

 

@Ed_Obermeier I remember pulling a barefooter in trick mode at 38mph behind PP Classic. Maybe I did a hand driving override or the RPM mode took over perfectly. The speed readout was from the paddlewheel. The skier did not complain.

 

Eric

[Ed_Obermeier]

The speed readout may have come from the paddlewheel Eric but the computer quits using any input past (I believe) 22 mph to make adjustments to rpm/speed. As I recall anyway that was what the manual said.

[DW]

I have always been interested in speed control for footing. I wonder if you could set up a second input from the paddlewheel that effectively halved the signal so PP would think it is only going half the actual speed. It would certainly need to ignore the PRM signal in that case. If it does drop at 22, then you would have speed control up to 44 mph for footing.

 

Yes, the whole weed aspect is frustrating for water pitots. The venturi ones are much better than the pressure ones, not perfect but much better.

[BraceMaker]

@DW - wouldn't it be easier to halve the RPM signal from an RPM based speed control?

 

At higher speeds I would assume the RPM value to become very consistent with the speed value. I would be suspect of the quality of reading of the paddle wheel at high speed if there was any chop on the water.

[DW]

@Bracemaker: good idea, but does PP switch off the signal based on paddlewheel speed or RPM? If paddlewheel speed, that would then still be over the threashold. Who on the site knows the answer??

 

I don't think chop on the water will have much affect at the midpoint of the boat, I am assuming (normally a very bad idea) that the flow will be smooth enough for an accurate impeller spin rate regardless of the speed (given the fact the person is barefooting). I think the bigger effect might be the flow direction, you might get some outward flow vectoring as the speed increases, but that would be consistent and you could calibrate that out.

[eleeski]

If the paddlewheel gives good speed readouts at high speeds why couldn't it control speeds there? The speed display in my boat was rock solid and consistent at all speeds. When the muskrats ate my pitot tube, I never noticed because the PP readout was all I ever used. My lakes are wind wave protected but the boat can face huge winds which affect speed seriously. Also weeds sometimes would load up the prop. In these cases, a look at the paddlewheel speed readout would register the actual speed and let me get the excuses ready. I'm not sure why 22 mph would be a cutoff for anything. I remember slalom mode as always rpm based at even the slow speeds.

 

@DW Are you considering a filter to divide the paddlewheel signal in half? Trivial for an EE but I'm mechanical. Should work though. Maybe you'd need to divide the rpm signal (also or instead). Or ask the guys at PP - it should be an easy reprogramming.

 

I wonder if the paddlewheel reacts quickly enough to simulate ZO?

 

All this talk really makes me love my ZO!

 

Eric

[DW]

@eleeski: Yes, based on the thread topic of pulling a footer w/ PP. It would certainly depend on the programming logic as to the need for which or both signals to be halved. I would assume it to be accurate, if accurate at low speeds and you are using the same paddlewheel to provide a value using twice the frequency it should be more accurate and consistent.

 

@Eric: is the slalom switch the same as the jump switch on the PP site or are they different?

[Ed_Obermeier]

@rico sent you a message concerning Switch.

[eleeski]

@DW There seems to be only one switch. My switch has been used in tournament for jump with ZO. It is the same switch I used for slalom in PP. The only difference is how the rope is threaded. Even that may reflect the need to shorten for slalom and change ropes for jump.

 

Regarding high speed PP, try calling PP. I would be surprised if they couldn't do some programming and make it work. Or send you to an earlier version (like what I remember) and give good barefooting pulls.

 

Eric

[BraceMaker]

I've pulled a footer once. On my boat that equated to burying the throttle and letting the guy hang on. He commented that the speed was perfect, and that the wakes were butter.

 

Oh the '80s.

[foxriverat]

I know this is an older thread but has anyone tried the ridesteady since they went to gps and rpm control. http://www.hydrophase.com/news/pr/hydrophase%E2%80%99s-new-ridesteady-gps-based-boat-speed-cruise-control-unparalleled-performance-features

[JJVDMZN]

@foxriverat I'm using the GPS Hydrophase on a V6 Mercruiser 4.3mpi, I currently ski at 49kph and use the GPS mode.

The system works quite well, been using it for 9 months now and no problems, it;s very simple to use, all you have to do is turn a knob and the speed will increase/decrease by 0.1 kph/mph.

 

[BraceMaker]

I will say that knob is better than the + button.

 

I feel like the ultimate would be to have a simple USB key fob that the skier would give to the driver with their settings preferences. The skier would then "preload" and hand it off.

[Waternut]

@‌foxriverat I looked are pretty much every cruise control system out there when I pulled the trigger on my PP Stargazer. Considering the Hydrophase version meant for slalom skiing is $1100 or more depending on options (+$25 if you have a 5" screen) with another $25-$30 shipping, you're getting pretty close to PP already.

 

The next thing to consider is if you sign up for club membership with www.skiertoskier.com which is free if you're a member of INT, USA Waterski, or even a local club. Then you can buy PP Stargazer for $1100 with free shipping and have some of the best customer service imaginable with the knowledge that your product will have support for as long as you want to keep running it... It was a no brainer for me.

[foxriverat]

@waternut Thanks for that info. I was not aware there was that much of a discount. I am going to look into that.

[Waternut]

The $1100 is the wake edition and not the 3 event. I don't know if it's still an option but when I bought mine, the wake edition was the same as the 3 event but you had to reset it and then pick which one you wanted (3 event or wake). The extra price was just the jump switch but I think now it includes the no magnet course timing now but even that can be purchased separately if you wanted to add it later.

[Mateo_Vargas]

Does anyone know what it would take to upgrade an Indmar 6.0L in a 2003 MasterCraft to Zero Off?

[foxriverat]

The 3 event stargazer no magnet timing at skier to skier is $1267 shipped. From watching the videos you can map up to 3 courses. We have 2 courses set up. And often will ski both on same run. From what I understand it will automatically recognize the course as you enter it? Our courses have magnets. I know you can also use it with magnet timing. I will have to call and see if price includes a magnetic smart timer. We also ski on a river. Usually low with not much current. But when its high and we have current is it easy to adjust on the fly.

[gregy]

@"Mateo Vargas"‌ probably be fairly difficult unless you do an engine conversion. Check with inboardfix there was also a guy on here doing conversions on 05 and 06 MC think his name was doug

[Cusefan78]

I installed ridesteady a few months ago and love it. Took around 1 hour to install and have not had any problems. Justin who owns hydrophase was very helpful and answered all my questions. Can say enough good things about the company and the product. I installed the GPS version. Also you get $100 back if you submit pics and a write up.

[foxriverat]

After looking into the ridesteady looks to be more for recreational or practice skiing. No timer for slalom course. Doesnt look like you can map a course in gps either. My best bet would be the pp 3 event stargazer

[Cusefan78]

Correct. Can't amp a course it has a timmer but doesn't start and stop at the gates.