Perfect Pass StarGazer with Z-Box Owners Discussion

[JC McCavit]

I am very happy with my Z-Box. My ball times are very accurate and the pull feels very similar on my 1997 196 with GT-40 Mechanical Servo to the ZO 196 & 200 I ski behind.

 

I would like to hear all the positive and negatives folks have run into so the information can be sent to PP for future improvements.

[Dirt]

Zbox works pretty well on our 2000 MC PS190 1.5to1. Not so great on my friends 91 MC carburated powerslot. It gets pulled down into 2 ball, runs away until 4 ball and thens slows down.

I also ski behind a Zbox early 2000ish SN that feels not as good as our boat but better than the 91 MC.

I can still feel the difference between ZO and Zbox mostly at the gates.

Zbox needs more real time throttle adjust especially at the gates.

[Texas6]

I like it on my 2003 TT197, but I still get hot one balls regardless of what I do to the settings on the box. They are one or two hundredths off, so it isn't the end of the world but I wish they were better. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with our fairly short set up combined with my tall prop pitch....

[Ryno]

I'm also very happy with the Z-Box install on my boat (Flightcraft 18XL with 200hp Mercury outboard).

My boat is never going to feel like a Zero off boat, but the Z-box gives me accurate times, so that's all I care about.

 

The Stargazer display/interface seems counter-intuitive at times. Pressing the menu button to scroll between modes (rather than using the up and down arrow) etc.

I find it always takes a bit of training for new drivers to use it. I'd like to see that changed to something that makes more sense, but I guess if they changed that, we'd all have to retrain ourselves in how to use it.

 

Setting up the engine response in Trick (or wakeboard setting) can be a bit of a pain. For me it would have made more sense to have two adjustable parameters for this setting. Response (how far off the speed it applies an engine correction) and Amount (amount of throttle it uses for that correction. This is obviously going to be variable due to boat speed and the power delivery of the engine. So you could have a table adjusting those parameters for every 5 kph or so.

 

[Texas6]

@scotchipman, @brady, same exact problem on my 03 197....I've tweaked it until I'm blue in the face and I come in at 1.75/74 pretty consistently

[gregy]

Anyone running the Zbox with dbw? I've heard it's better. I ski with on a 93 MC 205 regularly and on short setups it hard not to come into the gates hot.

[JC McCavit]

How do you tell if the boat is coming in hot at the gates? I may have this same problem and would like to know how you measure the time in that area. Now that I think about it, ZO always feels a little slow thru the gates compared to my boat. I just assumed my boat was able hold the speed better. If this is a real problem, I can't imagine why this could not be corrected by PP if we asked as a user group.

[gregy]

@jc mccavit. On my friends boat you can usually feel it when your driving. Also you can see the speed display. One end of our lake has short setup so you have to be careful not over throttle especially when your used to ZO and being able to hammer the throttle and not worry about it.

[6balls]

Razor1's '05 TT w/dbw runs good times, but I feel like it's a very stiff pull compared to ZO...like the addition of throttle is more abrupt. Feels like it skiing, and sounds like it driving. He has dialed it back pretty well...but I still think it's more abrupt than ZO.

[jackski]

1995 Response 340 hp carb motor. Only skied once behind a ZO boat so I can't compare but Z box works well for me. We are mainly skiing up a few at 38. Times are all within .02. Ball one is consistent at 1.76 and I usually have at 3-5 actuals in a pass. No surging no problems.

[colo_skier]

I put a lot of information about what I had to do to my 07 Response to address the issues I was having. Search for z-box. I thought it was due to an exhaust change but may have been more due to stargazer and z-box.

[east tx skier]

My Zbox has worked well on my 98 SN with the out of the box settings. The worst times I got were when I was using it in some serious wind and chop with my antisiphon valve gumming up the engine. Just goes to show that there are some scenarios good cruise control can't fix.

 

Times at 30, 32, and 34 with a skier in the course are almost always within only .02 seconds variance of actual times. The people who have skied behind my boat seem as pleased with the pull as ever.

[kurt]

I have it in our 2001 malibu lx ,after I got the upgrade software midway through last summer it definately helped it settle in quicker, especially at 36 mph . I love it; now I am getting 1.77 at 1 ball pretty consistantly . Z-box is more operator intensive than ZO but once you get used to driving it it's great

[MattP]

@efw easy answer ZO shows the times for each buoy and has an optional judges display. Time for an upgrade to make the little lady happy.

[MattP]

@efw for someone who does not "revolve around skiing" pretty demanding. Yeah I think it has a larger display than the unit screen. I'm sure pp could rig something up might cost a few bucks.

[ForrestGump]

The judges display with ZO is still the same size screen as the in dash ZO head.

[JC McCavit]

@efw - I do not have the elusive upgrade you mention. I have been waiting to hear if the update addresses the main concerns expressed by BallofSpray users and other serious competitive skiers. Your idea for a portable display the skier can read from the transom is genius. The problem I have with this is I would only use it during the initial setup, so I am not sure I could justify the cost. But it sure would be nice not have to ask the driver to read you the times.

 

@mattp - PP has the option to show all buoy times, but you have to press the up arrow at the end of the pass. I would like to see PP auto display the times by default. If enough users agree, we could suggest this feature be included in future updates.

[MattP]

Wait @efw your wife is complaining about pressing one button?... sounds like there are some other issues you did not inform us of.

[DanE]

Have Zbox in a 99 SN w/t GT-40 .

Biggest (really only) issue I have is the dreaded slow 2 ball followed by catching up to actual by 4 ball issue.

Tried increasing the Zbox value and it got better but at the cost of the system reacting kind of harsh.

Hoping for an upgrade ths spring.

[jackski]

@DanE try adjusting ball 1 to 1.76

[DanE]

@jackski - believe me, I´ve tried every adjustment there is, even while corresponding with PP but always ended up with the problem mentioned above.

The system is flawed in this regard, now this only occurs while driving heavier skiers at shortline (I´m 190 ish and ski into 38 off) with lighter skiers at longer lines or slower speeds the system works perfectly.

Now the quick fix I came up with (increasing ZBox value) was kind of promising, did it late in the season with no more time to tweak.

Segment balancing tweaks might have a bigger impact with a higher ZBox #, who knows I´ll have to wait for the ice to melt before trying that.

[brody]

i have a 2001 malibu, just wondering which guage everybody replaced, the tach or the speedo. i'm thinkng about getting rid of the tach.

 

[Fine409]

I took the speedo out on my 2002 Malibu, since my hour meter is on the tach.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Replace the speedo, you don't need it, plus the multi function readout is in the tach and I wouldn't think you'd want to lose that.

[rodltg2]

I was considering Zbox for my 99 , SN , but as suggested I will keep PP classic and run in kx++

[Waternut]

I don't look at my old tach or my old speedo once I installed Stargazer so put it in a convenient place to look at.

[Razorskier1]

My 2005 197 is DBW and zbox works really well. I had to dial the throttle response setting (I think it is the zbx setting?) down to about 2/3rds of the factory setting to soften up the response. With the factory setting it was like leaning against a freight train. Much better now, and certainly helpful in terms of consistency with ZO boats that I ski at tournaments.

[east tx skier]

I think the software v. 8.0 that accompanied zbox was as much of an improvement as anything I have seen in a while. My boat has never locked in on speed as quickly (so far before the setup buoys) as it has since this upgrade.

[Peebs]

I completely agree with DanE's comments....I installed the system last fall on a 2000 SN GT-40, and the system works great for skiers under 180 lbs .. but at 205 lbs the boat "pulls" hard or accelerates into four ball....its brutal. Current Numbers are 13/40/27 with Zbox at 9, (stock numbers are 8/50/31 Zbox 11 for 34 mph) but I will bump the Zbox up to 13 on my next set as per Dan E's comments. We increased the ball 1 times to try to balance the segments but I agree the system needs a software tweak. I shouldn't complain as I was shoveling the snow from my house roof on sunday, and I am skiing NOW!

[Razorskier1]

I pulled my zbox setting on my 197 down as low as 6, and now I'm running it at 8. 11 was way too strong.

[DanE]

Seems like you can play a lot with Zbox setting depending on what Boat/Engine/tranny/prop combo you have, wether it's dbw or not, the list goes on.

I do not recall exactly where I ended up but 15 seems to ring a bell.

11 was way to weak on our Boat (1999 SN GT-40)

The worst part of the speed increase between ball 2 and 4 is that the Boat keeps increasing rpms constantly so it runs away from you in the turns.

I did not tweak enough with Zbox last year and I would also like to get input from more skiers than myself while doing so.

From what I felt it was not too complicated tweaking, just increase it one digit at a time and when I went too far it became very apparent.

I bought the system after I watched video here on bos and heard a Boat sound just as a ZO Boat.

Our Boat sounded more like PP Classic and then a constant rpm increase from 2 to 4 and then settling in from there to exit.

Increasing Zbox made it sound more like it should.

[DanE]

On a different note I found that making the Boat come in slightly hot Only made matters worse, as if the system compensated for that and backed off making 2ball slow.

If you have a slow 2 ball with PP Zbox, you're toast.

 

[Ed_Obermeier]

Just want to ask a question here. Those of you having surging issues, do you have those issues with SG if you take Zbox out of the equasion? In other words do you also have surging with plain SG or did the surging start only after adding Zbox?

[escmanaze]

Well I'm going to be trying to ski this summer behind a 97 SNOB with z-box and it sounds like I now have some extra motivation to get my 185 pounds down to 165 pounds before summer comes :)

[Phil2360]

@efw,

What about a completely after the fact option.....

Having PP write to a data file on a flash drive or sd card.

each line of data could contain time, speed & then all ball times.

Could also include all options set.

 

Would probably be very usefull for fine tuning systems.

 

[DanE]

@Ed_Obermeier I had SG before and never got it to work up to par so just ran Classic instead, my problems with SG was pretty much in line with what @rico experienced.

Now what's a little decieving with Zbox is that you can have absolutely perfect times for ball 1, ball 3 and end course time and it still feels like crap.

I was very frustrated about what felt wrong when I only looked at those segments and times were dead on actual and still felt the boat run away from me.

When I took a closer look at ABT segments it all made sense- slow 2 ball followed by a fast 4 ball, that's where the boat runs away and producing a perfect 3 ball time in the process.

[MISkier]

Instead of, or in addtion to, a memory card or flash drive, how about bluetooth to your phone, tablet, etc.? Both ZO and PP could add this.

[MattP]

@rico with ZO do we really need to call times anymore?

[Peebs]

In the past I have always gone back in forth between SG GPS and Classic Mode...personally I have always found more consistent skiing, and better results with the classic mode. I was hoping the Z box would have better control with larger serious skiers but that's not the case. So yes, I have never had great control with SG (with skiers over 185 lbs) and I have done several software updates, and tried alot of adjustments including reversing the rpm signal. PP's customer service has been great to-date.

With the zbox, like all PP control systems, the driver still has to drive the boat into the course, the driver has to be smooth, and just feather the system into engagement...if the boat comes in hot, the system will try to slow the boat down, just as the skier pulls through the gates...then the boat will try to speed up at the wrong time (as the skier approaches ball 1).... and the system is out of sync with the skier the entire pass. I think this is the one of the problems that we are having. Normally the smoothest drivers are the better skiers, and its hard to figure out whats happening in the boat when you are at the end of the rope.

[markchilcutt]

I have SG Z-Box on my 2006 DBW Response LXI it has been perfect since day 1!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsEun7KtU7M Take a listen

[Ed_Obermeier]

On my '05 LXI (cable throttle) I initally had the surging issues when I first installed SG but once I got it dialed in it's sweet and no surging issues, pull is even etc, never another issue with it. That is why I asked the question. Seems to me that BEFORE adding Zbox you need to have SG dialed in. Layering on another adjustment (Zbox) without having SG dialed to me just muddles it up so much it would likely be impossible to ever figure it out. I know I was able to dial my SG in and I know several others including several on this message board have done the same, so I'm having a difficult time understanding why some have surging issues they can't figure out and many others figure it out no problem.

 

I've posted here several times what I've done to dial SG in and I can post that info again if anyone wants/needs it. I know several here have used that advice and dialed theirs in. I'm just bamboozled why that isn't working for almost everyone. For me it just wasn't that tough.

[DanE]

Well it seems that the ones having problems with PP SG/Zbox are people with older(1997-2000ish) SN hulls and GT-40s.

Some are on this forum and I know personally a couple of others with the same issues.

Not an explanation just an observation.

I for one would need a larger sample of heavy pulling skiers to really tweak the system, the others I ski with are too light/slower speeds/longer lines to affect the system.

It became quite annoying trying to dial in speed control every practice pass, especially as I ski on a big public lake where the conditions vary a lot, would be nice to concentrate on my own skiing every once in a while.

Skiing season in Sweden is really short too

[colo_skier]

@DanE It seems you have exactly the problem that I addressed in my thread about z-box. If you can find it, I put down in detail what i had to do to get rid of the boat running away. Hopefully it helps. If you have tried the things that I had to do then sorry all can say is it fixed my issues.

[Phil2360]

@MISkier,

Bluetooth, apps etc would be great, but don't think it's the right direction for

the focus of R&D resources for a company like PP or ZO.

 

Ongoing hours would need to be put into keeping that sort of app & interface

working with all manner of different devices.

 

Writing data to a card would be a once it's done, it's done type or development.

Not a lot of need to keep going back to revise it.

 

Bit like the GoPro App for mobiles.....

Behaves differently on 4 different devices in our household, & most less than

perfectly, with issues waiting to be resolved.

 

[DanE]

thanks @colo_skier Noticed you tried different settings of CR/CS something I don´t have since mine is not DBW.

Excactly what does CR/CS setting affect ?

[DUSkier]

@MattP we still call in times so as to make sure boat driver has set boat speed correctly, basically a triple check that the speed was set correctly. Driver, Boat Judge and Scorer.

Our Z box was plug and play on our 2000 sportster, (310hp Carb) good times and good pull straight out of the box

[colo_skier]

@DanE,

The affect it had for me was to center the 2 bouy point between 1 and 3 so that PP did not wait to long to figure out it was going to be late at 3. This completely removed the running away from me at 2 that you seem to be tackling. I think you just have 1 of those CS I think. As I said in my original this had nothing to do with the z-box as it happened in all modes of PP. Until I cleared this up I thought it was the z-box killing me at the 2 bouy. It was in fact PP in classic or GPS with or without the z-box. I don't have my pp manual so not exactly sure what they effect but when I was adjusting them the documentation made sense.

[DanE]

@colo_skier Yes I agree the problem is not with the Zbox itself, it´s the Stargazer settings that do not work correctly, and no there is not such a thing as a CS setting if you don´t have DBW.

Now that @DUSkier chimes in and @markchilcutt posted that video and they both have boats that appear to work well with Zbox and none of them are a SN with GT-40 I´m starting to think the problem might be in that boat/engine combo.

One thing I will try is move the attachement point for throttle cable on the throttle lever, that will effect the rate at wich the stepper motor controls engine rpm, maybe it´s reacting to slow.

Now if that darn ice would melt...

[Ed_Obermeier]

@DanE, I assume you've tried dropping your baselines a bit to make SG engage earlier and not overshoot? I've posted the below several times but here it is again in hopes it may be helpful.

 

How quickly your SG engages (locks in) determines how quickly it will settle in to correct speed, which is especially critical on short setups. I have found (and numerous others have confirmed) that LOWERING YOUR BASELINE RPM for each speed will help your SG engage more quickly at a lower RPM. On my boat ('05 RLXI, 340 hp Monsoon engine) for 34 mph i.e. I've lowered the BASELINE RPM by about 300 rpm from the OPERATING RPM (in other words rpm the boat is running at at speed) so it's engaging at around 32.5 - 33 mph speed. Again, by not overthrottling on pull up and allowing the SG to engage sooner makes it a smooth transition to correct speed before you hit the entry gate. Overshoot and it's hunting around and won't settle properly before you hit the entry gate; that's where you often end up with a rodeo ride off three ball. Lowering the baseline doesn't affect anything except how early the system locks in. You want it to lock in before it gets up to speed but not too far ahead. The adjustment from lock in to correct speed should be seamless and if you don't over throttle it will be.

[DanE]

Thank you @Ed_Obermeier - Will give it a go if all else fails.

I Always ran actual baselines so I could easily switch to Classic.

Have a ridiculously long setup also