Baller makeall6 Posted August 19, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 19, 2013 Very new to this site and really enjoy it. Quick question. I have just been reading about the PP upgrade to Zbox. I currently have a 2004 Nautique with Star Gazer. We no longer travel to tournaments and only ski at our site. I am 63 and at times get into 32off at 32mph. My sons get into 35off regularly and ski at 34mph. What benefit would the upgrade give to us if any? Thanks to all. Best, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted August 19, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted August 19, 2013 If you do not need to practice for tournaments or have your boat equipped for others to practice for tournaments, you probably do not need it. If you are happy with your current speed control, you probably do not need it. If you don't ever ski ZO boats (or do so rarely and can find a setting you can deal with), you probably do not need it. If you'd like to get rid of your magnets altogether and get GPS course mapping, there is a low cost ($150) upgrade to SG for that. My .02 The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller makeall6 Posted August 19, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted August 19, 2013 Thanks MISkier, That answered my question perfectly. Love this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller lff Posted August 19, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 19, 2013 My experience with the ZBox makes me think it was the best $400 I've spent in a while. I have an '03 Malibu RLxi and with Stargazer it felt like it was running away from me at the turns and the surging experienced by myself and others on short setups was annoying to say the least. After I added the ZBox the surging is gone and the boat maintains speed much better. It may have something to do with me(6'3" 220) but it is a much better ride and that coupled with the fact that magnets are no longer needed made it well worth the money. I do not ski tournaments but I have skied behind ZO a few times and it feels pretty much the same. I ski 22-32/35 at 34 so I'm not all that good but I definitely recommend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Onside135 Posted August 19, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 19, 2013 My ski partner has an '07 Response that had Stargazer. To me the ZBox is a much better pull than the standard Stargazer. I have comments similar to @lff concerning the boat running away in different segments of the course with Stargazer. The ZBox upgrade, after some mild tweaking, has eliminated this and is in my opinion a better pull and very similar to Zero Off. Having said that, if you are happy with your Stargazer and don't plan to ski tournaments, you'd probably be okay to stick with what you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DanE Posted August 19, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 19, 2013 What @Onside135 Said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skihack Posted August 20, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 20, 2013 The Zbox will still run away if you push the throttle down too far. I have got used to it, so I never have a run away problem when driving. I only push the throttle down just enough to engage the boat at 34 mph. I have often thought of putting a removeable pin set up to prevent the throttle from being pushed down too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller bassfooter Posted August 20, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 20, 2013 @makeall6 - Great advice here. As the owner of a '98 Nautique with StarGazer installed, I agree with everything said thus far. Given your skiing requirements (i.e., no need to train for tournaments with Zero Off-based boats), I can tell you without hesitation that your boat with StarGazer installed should be just fine WITHOUT the Z Box upgrade. Our friend @skimech touched on the biggest problem with StarGazer -- runaway speed mid-course. You can avoid that by simply easing into the correct RPM and not over-revving as you pull up the skier and approach the course. It takes a little getting used to if you're used to Zero Off or the "classic" Perfect Pass systems, especially if you have a short set-up to the course. A lot of StarGazer owners have had great success by lowering their baselines for each speed setting by 30 to 60 RPMs. This helps the system lock in sooner and seems to help avoid getting "gassed" mid-course as the system searches for the correct speed. Having said all that, I recommend you upgrade to version 8 with their "course-mapping" feature. It's working like a charm for us thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted August 20, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted August 20, 2013 Throttling up with zbox still requires the same finesse as SG. You want to push the throttle smoothly to a location that will provide a speed about 2 mph above your target speed. You can't floor it and back off. I think the pull is very similar to Zero Off, but I don't think the driving challenges of SG went away. I think a little less adjusting of the settings may be happening with zbox, but the throttle up is still tricky - especially in mechanical throttle systems. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GOODESkier Posted August 20, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 20, 2013 Best $$$ spent on an older boat! Even if you don't train for tournaments, ZO and ZBox help you advance in my opinion. Look at it this way, for about a $1 a day, you can have it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DanE Posted August 20, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 20, 2013 @skimech @bassfooter Read the thread PP Stargazer and you Will find the solution to get rid of the runaway problem, I had that problem so bad I gave up on Stargazer and Zbox and just ran Classic instead- not anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller escmanaze Posted August 20, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 20, 2013 Weird, I keep seeing everybody saying you can't cram zbox and then let up? I have a 97 snob, that's exactly what I tell my wife to do - I want out of the water as fast as I can get out. I do the same thing with my friend skiing on the back. So far no complaints from me or him and with the course mapped, my time is perfect every time. Maybe I'll have to start watching closer as I pull him to see if the speed is varying greatly? It doesn't seem like it while skiing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GOODESkier Posted August 20, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 20, 2013 I have always had great luck with throttling to the beep and then gradually pulling back. Kind of keeping the throttle moving so to speak. I also have my baseline for 34 set a few RPM's low. It runs perfect ball and segment times as well as complete pass times. I continually run the same ball count on ZBox as I do ZO. BEST $ Spent, besides a new ski! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted August 20, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 20, 2013 My buddies new SG on a throttle cable response LX is gassing the hell out of him mid course but not necessarily me. He is a bigger guy at 6'4'', 230 lbs and runs an occasional 35 off. My brother's SG on drive by wired was bullet proof. Accel however you want...floor it, sneek up it didn't matter. It hit speed, beeped, and held like a ZO system would with perfect times again and again and no surges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GOODESkier Posted August 20, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 20, 2013 I've installed 3 SG with Zbox in the last year. 2003 Nautique 196, 1999 GT-40, and a 1997 Carbed OB. Also a wake edition on a Ski Sanger. Only one that surged was the 1997 carburetor model. We added a return spring, issue solved. This has been said time and again, but you have to drive it differently to hit the set point. WITH ZBOX IT ROCKS!!!! PERFECT TIMES EVERY TIME, NO SURGING. I did set the Zbox factor from 8 factory to 14. This makes the boat more reactive in that pull, and would make you wonder if you were behind a ZO boat or not........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller makeall6 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted August 21, 2013 What is course mapping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted August 21, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted August 21, 2013 Course mapping is the ability to program the coordinates of your course into zbox, so that you do not need magnets for timing. It uses GPS positioning of the gates to determine the course beginning, ending, and all buoys in between. It will trigger and stop timing as you enter and exit the course and calculate all ball times using virtual timing based on GPS location and frequent speed measurement sampling during the trip through the course. Zero Off has the same capability and does not require magnets. As you know, StarGazer only requires one magnet on each gate. The course mapping option upgrade to SG will require no magnets. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller makeall6 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted August 21, 2013 Thanks MISkier. Most likely purchase the $159 upgrade. No magnets and course mapping, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted August 21, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted August 21, 2013 That is my understanding. The link is below. Also, give PerfectPass a call to verify everything (check your current SG version, etc.) . They are always awesome to talk to when you have questions or need help with selecting the right stuff. http://www.perfectpass.com/?q=systems Look for the "No Magnet Timing Software" portion of the page. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rockdog Posted August 22, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 22, 2013 My latest SG Version 8 has no magnet course mapping included, even without zbox. Maps up to three courses only though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted August 23, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 23, 2013 Inverting the rpm was the bomb on my buddies throttle cable Response LX and SG no Z-box. After that slight adjusts on segments, use the XL for him and std for me and it's perfect. Do agree if you just stuff it it will overshoot and then need to come down but if feed in steady no issue and spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted August 23, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 23, 2013 an extra throttle spring is a good idea to bring the throttle back better if you overshoot. I don't have that issue with DBW. Zbox works great and is as close to ZO as you can get without buying ZO. A lot cheaper for me than the $3k+ to ZO my boat. I did find that the zbx setting had to be dialed back to around 7-8 from factory set (11 I think). Otherwise it was just too strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members musclefixer Posted August 24, 2013 Members Share Posted August 24, 2013 I think you will like the Z box. Even if your not running tournaments, its a nice upgrade. It does change the feel of the pull from the boat and will allow you to advance your skiing, (my opinion). plus those that ski with you, that might be use to zero off can then get a similar pull. The main thing for my boat '00 prostar, was that Z box helped get the boat entry speed and ball times closer to exact and less adjusting going on thru the course, then I could ever get with adjusting background settings and or RPM's. Of course everything is dependent on the boat whether its DBW or mechanical servo,4 blade, 3 blade, 1:1 or 1.5./1 tran. etc.... course mapping definitely is a plus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller escmanaze Posted August 25, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 25, 2013 I probably should clarify my comment about my zbox working great even though my wife crams the gas and then just lets off a little. I rode a couple passes today without the course being mapped and I was surprised at how much it threw me off. I think the course mapping makes a big difference. Also, neither I, nor my friend, are shortline skiers yanking the boat around as maybe other people would to be messing with it. We're both just 15 off guys anywhere from 26 up to 32 mph. Neither of us are huge either. He is 160, I am 180. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GOODESkier Posted August 25, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 25, 2013 @Razorskier1 what year, make, and model boat do you have? I upped my ZBox factory setting to 14 and thought it was pretty close to the firmness of ZO. My ABC factor is set to 0 and myKx is set to normal. Maybe yours is different? I have a 2003 Ski Nautique 196 Mechanical Throttle of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted August 25, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted August 25, 2013 @escmanaze, what length is your setup? The reason I mentioned the need to throttle up smoothly is that the boat will have a hard time settling in to the right speed when the throttle is floored and pulled back. So, you either need a really long setup or a slower speed target to give the boat the right amount of time to reach the target speed and settle down. I've seen lock in issues with a 2000' lake and a 34 mph target, if not throttled correctly. 36 mph is also a challenge. The slower speeds might be easier to get away with it. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller makeall6 Posted August 25, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted August 25, 2013 Great info. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller escmanaze Posted August 26, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 26, 2013 @MIskier, I don't really have a measurement on exactly how much setup I get. I ski on little tucked away corners of a public lake, so really I get about as much as I really care to have. After exiting the course, I can decide whether I want to go out 50 yards or 300 yards before I turn around or drop. There are a few exceptions to this when the lake levels get low, and in those cases, I would estimate that I probably still get 100 yards of setup. So in the end, I usually give myself a good bit of setup, and it sounds like maybe that is another part of the reason that I don't have any problems. Also, as you mention, the low speed skiing might be helping as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted August 26, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted August 26, 2013 @escmanaze, the extra setup length and lower speed probably are helping you settle the zbox in. Either that, or your installation is tuned exceptionally well. To find out, start about 250 feet from the 55s to approximate a short setup and pull someone up to 34 or 36 mph. I know that is not your speed and they don't have to try to run the course. Just have them ski in the wake to provide weight during throttle up and do some turns near the buoys to provide load at each buoy. Then, check the timings and see what you get. It would be interesting to see. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller escmanaze Posted August 26, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 26, 2013 That will be interesting to try. I will give it a whirl next time I'm out and see how it goes. at 34 mph I could just ski the Jr. Buoys. I'll report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted August 26, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 26, 2013 @GOODESkier -- 2005 PS197TT with DBW throttle. Boat is very strong and with DBW it is really easy regardless of setup length. Push throttle, hear beep, boat locks on speed without overshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Mateo_Vargas Posted August 27, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2013 I'm thinking about upgrading but wondering if anyone has had positive results with the same boat setup I have? '95 PS190, LT1, 1:1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller KcSwerver Posted August 28, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2013 @Mateo vargas off topic slightly but we have the same exact boat. Love the LT-1 ours has a slot though. We need it, extremely short setup on one side of the lake, sometimes makes it to 36. Sometimes not. HAND DRIVING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Mateo_Vargas Posted August 28, 2013 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2013 @KcSwerver sounds like you are a good candidate for the old system after the upgrade. It was good to meet you at the tournament at The Pond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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