Class C scores are inflated because...

[disland]

We have created a culture where Class C is judges differently than E/L in spite of the fact that the rules are the same.

[jrs]

It's easy to look at the ranking of some skiers where their class C scores are a full pass better than their class R scores. Those class C tournaments typically have a small group of skiers where everyone involved is benefiting from something that would not hold up in a class R. I don't understand why someone would want to inflate their ranking and then never live up to it at Nationals.

[MISkier]

Speaking from a slalom perspective, I have seen our tournament skiers post the same exact scores in Regionals and Nationals that they post in our class C tournaments here. In fact, some of our skiers have skied better at Regionals and Nationals than the class C performances. I've seen gates pulled in our class C tournaments here. I haven't ever seen any weaving by drivers. I did see one re-ride that seemed questionable to me and resulted in a better score/PB due to a second chance at the skier's hardest pass. The reason given was too short of a delay between passes and rollers in the course. But, as a rule, our tournaments do not appear to be generating better scores due to relaxed officiating or driving.

[jrs]

@MISkier Our tournaments are all run just like a class R and like you stated, our scores are in line. However, that is sure not the case and some sites. After awhile, you know who is real and who is not.

[MISkier]

@jrs, it may happen elsewhere across the country. I have skied nearly every tournament site in Michigan and there seems to be solid officiating and driving at every single one. And, as I said, the scores match in slalom.

[Horton]

The gate rule is clearly goofy with 3 judges in a class C but how often is that really a factor. It happens but statistically I think it is pretty small. I do not see many skiers miss their gates very often.

 

The one time I can recall ever missing the gates in a tournament was this year. The tower totally missed it. There was at least one Pan AM judges in the tower. The boat crew laughed when I confessed to missing. I am 100% sure that score did not impact my ranking.

Here in So Cal if a driver weaves he will not be driving for long.

 

If there is a delta between Class C and Class R is that (outside of Florida) there are a lot more Class C rounds. Give me enough rounds and I will eventually pop a big score. Also at Regionals and Nationals most skiers are not sleeping in their own beds and eating the same food and everything else that happens when you travel.

 

There are pockets of really bad judging. We have all heard about it. I do not think it is all that common.

 

[The_MS]

I think the biggest factor is the course being surveyed. There are sites that host C events that have never been surveyed.

[disland]

I love it!, Small sample but so far but most think C is not inflated. My point exactly. This is why the only events that should be class L/R should be Pro meaning cash event, World's, Europeans, and maybe US Nationals. That's it!

[RichardDoane]

we do a good job in the PNW driving straight, and following the rules

[Horton]

@ms maybe that's true in southern Canada. not true here in California

[disland]

Who says drivers dont weave in L/R tournaments. The only video getting reviewed is if someone breaks a record

[The_MS]

@Horton so your saying that every Ca site that has hosted a C has a RC slalom course up to date on survey? No wire or floating courses host C events? We have a site in Mn that has a wire/boom course and it is narrow due to sag. I dont ski there for scores but if I did, I would put you out of reach of my average.

[LeonL]

I didn't vote because you mixed events. I don't think slalom scores are inflated around here in class C, however tricks may be another thing. We only do class C, because no one really cares about higher classifications. I dare say that if in KY we held a REL and the entry fees were inline with FL ($125 - $150) we'd have a very few skiers. We've had our course surveyed and its dimensions are in record tolerance. On the other side of the coin, we had a B2 ski a personal best at Nationals in slalom, and a B3 trick a personal best at Regionals, so.........

[Roger]

I voted weaving. We don't allow weaving or anything else at Okeeheelee; our C tournaments are run just like the R tournaments with the exeption of video gates/End Course sometimes (this year we ran video for everything because we were working with the splasheye programmer(s) to help perfect the system.

[Horton]

@ms

current? like in the last few years? Not every site. RC in the last 10 years? Most if not all sites I ski tournaments.

 

floating? 0%

[klindy]

@MS even under class C rules the chief officials are responsible to make sure that the courses are accurate and the tournament is run within the AWSA rules. If there's a site that is known to be narrow, I'd recommend someone fix it.

 

@disland the boat path video gets more scrutiny than you think. Last week the boat path video was in plain view of all the slalom judges (except boat judge) and the gate review judge generally watched the boat path after the entrance gate. At Cottonwood I've personally sat in the chair watching nearly a whole round of boat paths. Likewise, many times the chief driver or other drivers are coaching the driver in the boat on his/her boat path. This year at the Nationals every pass was effectively scored and every driver was given a "report card" (or sorts) after their event.

[ForrestGump]

@disland At every E/L/R I've driven at, the other drivers are providing feedback and critiquing each other's boat path and driving. The end course video IS watched real time by numerous people.

[lakeaustinskier]

In our area (Austin) it seems that most of the tournaments are E/L/R because once you buy the video equipment why not use it? (plus the price of equipment is so cheap now). It's possible that in certain areas with small numbers of skiers Class C tourneys are weird but I'll bet that would be isolated. Not trying to highjack the thread here but there's been so few Class C's here lately its been hard for Junior Officials (including myself) to get credit for working tournaments and advance.

[Razorskier1]

I agree with Horton. In general most of us run a lot more class C rounds, so our averages for those are higher. I've never been convinced that a weave helps my skiing. I want a driver who knows where I am and knows how to appropriately counter while keeping the boat where it belongs. Sometimes guys who weave do so at the wrong times, and it makes it harder, not easier. Give me a top senior driver every time and I think my scores will be higher, on average.

[sunperch]

All of the courses that I have skied for tournaments in KS have been surveyed, same in MO.

[boarditup]

Around here in MI, I don't see the issue. My 3 slalom courses were laid out and augered into the lake bed by survey. All of the judges I know and have seen have taken their task very seriously and don't play favorites. They do hope you get a PB, but won't cheat for you to get it.

 

I have seen a few junior boat drivers have some difficulty with higher end skiers, but what I have seen is that hurts the score. I have not seen a successful weave, even in practice here.

 

I just don't see the issue. Maybe it exists somewhere, but not the the skiers and judges around here. Solid people with integrity.

[RichardDoane]

@ms - the broho course floats nicely (self adjusting for water level changes) and is in tolerance (we've had it surveyed), your Southern Canadian pals should get the ruler out and add some additional arm floatation, however, we're anchoring a new set up for next summer

[bkreis]

In south florida our c's are run tight!

[Klundell]

I agree with @horton if there is a difference its because of the volume and the circumstances of traveling to an R. Living in UT I've skied probably 20 class C rounds this year and 1 record round. My average for most of the year has been around 111 and I skied 109 at Regionals. I don't think it is surprising that the average of my best 3 of 20 rounds happens to be higher then my 1 high stakes round. In fact if you averaged all of my rounds I skied better at the record.

[LeonL]

I neglected to mention in my previous post that our course, which I did say was surveyed in June, is a floating course. That precludes us from having ELR, but as I related previously, I don't think we'd get many entrants anyway.

[ForrestGump]

Actually, @LeonL , you can have a floating course for ELR. There are specific guidelines for floating, but definitely doable.

[LeonL]

@ShaneH, I know you can, but it would require a pretty big effort. And as I said I would reap fewer skiers due to entry fees.

[The_MS]

Back in the EP days, skiers would flock to Waterloo Ia, to get EPs. I could care less about C-E-L-R. I just go to sites that are awesome to ski at and have fun. I stay away from the courses that I know are jacked up. If people want to practice or compete with jacked up courses, have at it.

[chris_logan]

I don't think they are inflated. I know many skiers who have PB'd at record events. For myself, I will set a PB if I am "on top of my game" that day, no matter the judges/drivers. If I miss a gate or buoy I don't want to be scored beyond that - It's cheap and only cheating myself. Most class C sight setups are not ideal, and there is an opportunity for judges to miss something because they just can't see it. However if everything was spec'd to E, L, or R standards, that would eliminate many sights and participants from tournaments (due to cost) and not promote growth in our sport. As far as drivers weaving - it's like a box of chocolates at a C tournament. Every tournament I have been associated with I am always checking boat path when I'm boat judge and telling the driver the adjustments to make until I feel there is no boat path issues. I am not a senior driver, but I am regularly complemented on my driving from skiers and boat path from other judges (and I do take pride in giving every skier the best pull possible).

[PatM]

As a driver and a judge at C events I feel a little insulted. I know I don't weave or award anyone that does not deserve a gate called differently. On a side note I don't believe weaving helps the skier. All the officials I have the pleasure to work with are 95% on the up and up (there is always one on any level that's not).

[markchilcutt]

Class c is all I ski in living in utah and feel like everything is lagit! We have awesome drivers, judges and awesome ski lakes! I have skied my personal best twice in a tournament at sunten ski lakes this yr! Its all lagit IMHO!

[JackQ]

The biggest difference for me is that skied 30+ round at C tournaments and 2 round in records, regionals and Nationals. My average of all Cs and the R is pretty close, but my best at the Cs in much better after having 30 attempts.

[Dusty]

What I know is- I don't see driver's deliberately weaving around here. I have personally assisted in the survey of many of the northwest's private sites- they are very accurate. I am a senior slalom judge, and senior slalom driver- I can see just fine without video, and I believe I can give a skier a pretty decent ride and chance at a PB without weaving. I AM a believer in the relatively uselessness of Class E. Costs the same as class L,R pretty much, benefits the same as a C, pretty much. It IS a volunteer officiated sport. It takes a little dedication and attention to detail so that people can have fun and ski, and so that it is fair to each and every one who enters...

[Not_The_Pug]

The class C events I go to are run as close to a record event as possible. Do some calls get made incorrectly because of lesser experienced judges, yes, but I have seen it go both ways. Attaching a picture of the judging set up at Bell Acqua's class C tournament this last weekend.

Testing for this weekends Pro Am.

[h2oski]

We have a good infrastructure in place so we can do both. If you have the towers set up properly, end course video running, etc. the standards should be good in C's.

[Chad_Scott]

I don't know if boat drivers intentionally weave in Class C tournaments, however I do know that some drivers tense up and drive differently when the camera is on at the end of the lake. Intentional or not!! I have skied behind drivers on Friday night before the tournament and then on Saturday when the camera is rolling it feels like a completely different person in the boat. I do think if you look at the rankings list you will see some folks with better scores in Class C versus their L or R scores. I think the L/R scores should count more than the Class C. There is now currently discussion amongst the TC committee to review all boat paths from record tournaments and start watching all of the driving that is going on out there. End course is too easy to put up, it should be required at all tournaments no matter what Class. So people can review their own boat path's after a tournament. Looking at the end course can be quite humbling at times.

[h2oski]

We have our DVR programmed to run from 8am to 8pm everyday. You can look at every ride you pull.

[ForrestGump]

Funny, I almost posted the same thing about boat path being recorded at all tournaments, Chad. Completely agree.

[MattP]

I would ski more ELR if I could afford it.

[ronski]

could the difference be site familiarity??? How about pressure?????

[Moskier3ev]

I think c tournaments are run pretty well here. But I do have a c trick and a L pb. I do not no credit tricks I cant see. When your on the bank it is hard to see rotation and air. You also get a little extra time by hand timing.

There is not much difference in slalom except when you go to an L event you normally get better drivers.

Jump scores are better at L because there are not drivers jumping in and out of the seat to get there driving credits at L tournaments. The same driver drives the whole group.

My 2 cents

Jeff Lindsey

[JohnCox]

I have matched my tournament PB 3 times. 2 at Record, and 1 at C.

[lpskier]

My Class C PB exceeds my ELR PB by one buoy. My two highest ranking list scores are from ELRs, and my fourth is from Nationals. Please tell me where the easy Class Cs are so I can enter as they apparently are not in my area.