Real scores and false scores and BS scores

[scoke]

 

Perception is a big deal.

 

Most of us seen two things happen at Class C tournaments, intentionally and unintentionally:

 

1) The drivers drive to "help out the skier". I've sat in the boat while a lake owner was talking about how it's good for the skiers. He was weaving and helping longer line skiers. Unfortunately, he was doing it to all skiers regardless of line length. It was killing the shortline guys as he was moving into them thinking he was helping them. Brutal.

 

2) The Drivers get owned by the skiers. The driver is an assistant driver rating pulling a variety of skiers with very little shortline experience. From the time the skier moves out on the boat, the driver is being pulled out of alignment and then will be chasing the skier for the remainder of the pass. Happens to 80% of the drivers even ones on splasheye. They don't realize how much the skier impacts them at the greens, are pulled off path and then it becomes a see-saw pull. I've watched regular and senior drivers unintentionally "weave" the boat because the skier ends up owning them. Real exciting to run some shortline and have the driver say to you, "golly jee good skiing, i dont get to pull people through even 35 off".

(Higher percentage of the time is this case)

[JWebSki]

I don't think it is necessary for end course video at class c tournaments. The classes need to be different, as long as everyone drives and judges to the best of their ability. If you are complaining about boat path at a class c, you should just stick to skiing class E L or R

[MrJones]

Agree with Scoke on that. I pull the kids and the wife into 35. Don't get to drive much short line as I'm usually facing backward for that. Got to pull an open skier at 39 last night. Different world when the skier is up at that point on the boat. Even in comparison to 38 IMHO.

[MillerTime38]

@jwebski I could not disagree more. If you can't drive or are not use to driving shortline get out of the boat.

[Than_Bogan]

Hm, I ski almost exclusively class Cs and I seem to have a big oversupply of drivers that I'd be totally comfortable to pull me through -38. When somebody shows up who can run -41, then I admit it's tough a find a driver who can really do that (and certainly I can't do it well).

 

But I'm surprised to hear of such inexperienced drivers. I think of the Eastern Region as having quite a bit fewer into-38 guys than elsewhere, but we still have enough that drivers get plenty of practice.

 

Plus, it's not really that hard to drive -35 and -38 with a modern boat. Last weekend I skied with a club that didn't seem to have anybody who ever shortens the line at all. The (very nice) guy I was skiing with still drove me more than fine for -28, -28, -32, -32, -35, and a couple at -38. In fact, he drove me a lot better than I was driving him, because his boat's steering was a little loose and it took some time to get used to it!

 

Last season I completed "only" around a dozen -38s in practice, and yet several of them were behind club members who never drive -38 except a few times a year when I con them into taking me!

 

But I will admit (and agree with MrJones) that -39 is a different story.

[PJ]

@horton SplashEye will soon be able to send you the picture (graph of boat path) of the last pass you drove right to your phone

[Roger]

@PJ - the version we have already can...

[Kelvin]

@PJ how many clubs have SplashEye - its a great technology, but not that accessible.

[kstateskier]

Cameras are getting cheaper and technology is getting better. Shouldn't be too hard to put cameras at the end of the course. Hell I can check on my dog (using DropCam) anytime I want on my iphone. I can even talk to him if I want.

[Horton]

At the site I skied last weekend they have been doing end course video for many years. It is a class C with class L driving.

[Horton]

@PJ‌ cost?

[jimbrake]

Question for the "good" drivers out there - how do you (if you do) "block" when driving a Nautique on the side that is already rudder loaded vs. the side that isn't. Do you just block more on the unloaded side and less on the loaded side? I find driving the Centurion that it's easier to block and keep the pylon centered down the course because it feels somewhat symmetrical on both sides. With the 200 I feel like one side I can block and the other I kind of just leave the steering alone. I would not call myself a "good" driver. Thanks!

[klindy]

The problem isn't the camera. It's getting a camera/lens combination that provides a picture "zoomed in" enough to be useful.

 

If the goal is something "official" for Class C that one thing. If it's just a camera for personal purposes that's might be different depending on the site and the quality desired.

[LeonL]

For you guys who haven't seen your driving on video, yet expressed a desire to....just set up a normal video camera zoomed as tight as up you can. It's quite revealing. You need to do it.

[MillerTime38]

@leonl I was shocked at my driving when I saw it on video, just like my skiing. I say to myself 'do I really look that bad?'' The camera don't lie

[Horton]

@LeonL‌ can't make me feel worse than when i see my skiing on video

[LeonL]

At least half the time end course video doesn't reveal your face, so agreed, @Horton.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Chad, I strongly disagree with your comment “end course should be required and submitted for all tournaments no matter what class.”

 

What about F? N? You have to draw a line on the hassle factor and caliber of tournament somewhere. Currently the line for end course video is Class E, and IMO, that’s the right spot.

 

Do we really need video for W6 at 15 off? Same for kids and other people and long and medium line lengths. What is the percentage of class C skiers running 35 or shorter? Obviously depends on the tournament, but nationwide what is that percentage? My guess is 20-30%.

 

Then exactly who is going to review the hundreds of hours of end course video from every weekend? If the video is taken, submitted, but no one ever looks at it, that is a huge hassle with absolutely no benefit.

 

I’m all in favor of keeping the boat path legit and taking steps to improve our drivers and discourage the weavers. If a Class C tournament sponsor voluntarily wants to have endcourse video displayed at the judges tower or starting dock as a learning tool for feedback, or just to let the driver know he’s being watched, that’s a good thing, but putting another obstacle in the way of growing our sport is counterproductive.

 

[bishop8950]

I put an end course camera together so I could watch my driving. I did it for a few hundred bucks and some instructions from Will Bush. You need ~300mm zoom from an old school lens ($40) and a CCTV camera ($99) and a few other parts. Several drivers at our club use it routinely in practice and have improved significantly. The difference after just a few sets is amazing. Without end course you really dont know how well you are driving, period.

 

The reason I mentioned it was I put a flat screen on the dock with the live end course on during our Class C events. Not because I want to expose driving or put pressure on the drivers, but because I want to raise awareness of how important good driving is. I want all of our drivers to do the best they can and have the right tools. Many skiers and drivers still say "comon, is it that big of a deal" and I say YES. Not just for me at short lines, but for all of us. I want drivers to call in on the radio and say "line me up please" or "is the boat level" or "how was that pass" instead of "I have been driving for years and am awesome, I dont need no stinking camera".

 

This past weekend I got my Reg Drivers rating just because I want to Chief Drive Class Cs and we will step up at my place one tournament at a time.

[gmut]

@Horton, wow this is one heck of a thread. I just want to know what ski you were riding when you ran 3 out of 5 rounds at 38 off. and.............lets not forget that there are boat drivers out there that actually hinder a skiers performance with off center driving to the opposite side of the course but then that's another issue for another thread........

[Edbrazil]

 

Endcourse can be a great tool. I have been Chief Judge for many Class C events here in New

Hampshire. Not quite the ski Mecca that it was at the time of the 1954 and 1959 Nationals, but

still quite a nice year-round sports place: water, snow, and golf.

Anyway, at the Dube's Pond events, I have set up my survey theodolite on the centerline at

the events that I've CJ'd. 30X lens, and great resolution, although not video. Makes for good

coaching of drivers. Typically, not much of that is needed. At least, up here in the sticks, I

don't think that drivers are trying to 'help' skiers.

 

In the back-back, when 39 was first starting to be run, I did the same thing for the events like

the "Thrilla at Hydrilla". You can probably blame me for the eventual requirement that there

needs to be centerline video for E/L/R. At that event, the World Record first credited passes

complete at 39 (10.75m) by Mike Kjellander and Andy Mapple. Very notable is that Mike's

score at 41 (10.25m) of 2 was actually reduced to 1 because of boat path deviation. No video,

but it was from the view through the theodolite that the boat had moved about 10 inches

toward the buoy. Yup, blame me, but since then with the C/L video specifications, that call

has been confirmed as appropriate.

[PJ]

@horton $$$$

[Horton]

@gmut‌ warp

[Brady]

@Horton I am thread jacking, but you have exactly described the "struggles" we all have in life. Too many people look for an advantage, or an edge, or simply allowing situations to unfold, let alone outright dishonesty, when they damn well know those situations are not accurate. I applaud your integrity, and I wish society as a whole, could adopt your attitude in life. Imagine politicians having that type of integrity. Imagine business people with the same etc etc etc. With the exception of your hair and your smart assness, the world would be a far better place if we could all have a bit more Horton spread around.

[Horton]

@Brady‌ there is plenty of me

[RichardDoane]

@horton you'd ski better if there was less of you, ZO can feel every "porkchop" beer you consume

[GaryWilkinson]

@Horton‌ I believe the judges reluctance to change their scoring error and their statement supports it, is that it's a question of ego.

 

Changing your score down would be an embarrassment for said judges who obviously weren't watching closely enough. An admission that they screwed up.

 

Ego trumps getting it right waaaay too often.

Sad.

[Horton]

@GaryWilkinson‌ in this case Mmmmm no

[GaryWilkinson]

Really., ?

Good to hear !

Just a rule change needed then.

I sit (and type)- corrected.

[skidawg]

@Brady‌ ... How many BALLER coins did @Horton‌ give U???

[Brady]

@skidawg Not a damn one. I knew if I got a bit sentimental, Horton would think I am a pussy. But, I still felt it needed to be said! :) If I say nice things about you, I am open to you giving me some however!!!!!

 

[Chet]

Come on automated driving

Chet

[jimbrake]

@Brady, etal - Please don't put "Horton" and "spread" in the same sentence.

[Horton]

@rico thank you I think

 

[dwfrech]

Hey John: Good job trying to clarify what also happened from your perspective. Don't worry too much about it. You are an accomplished skier; the rules are set that the judges decide how you will score anything. If you have video replay, perhaps you can declare the actual facts. It is a half-buoy you are talking about, and keep that in mind. The system is what you have now. However, your view is valid. Don't worry about it too much because everyone is graded by the same set of judges, like it or not. They try to do their best. Your attempt to reduce your score is noble. Mostly they probably hear complaints that the skier did not get enough credit. Your claim is most likely unprecedented. Good job being honest. Accept whatever they say but try to get a new rule established, "The skier is also a judge". I appreciate how you described your predicament. I met you in early summer 2014. You are a heck of a skier.

[Horton]

@dwfrech‌ It is only a big deal to me because I care about my national ranking. That 1/2 ball divided by 3 is 1/6th ball could be a number of places. With some luck I will get some legit scores equal to or better so that score will not be a factor.

[klindy]

You had a week to request a change in the ranking list.......

[Horton]

@klindy‌ that would only be true if it was a clerical error. Right?

[klindy]

The rule says "correcting scoring errors". Not sure why it matters if it was clerical or otherwise. Just need the "approval" of the CJ and CS. At this point I'll bet the scores were posted to the ranking list more than 7 days ago so probably too late.

[Razorskier1]

@Horton -- just skied my first tournament in a very, very long time. Unfortunately windy and rainy, but that's the way it works, right? Best I could do was 3 at 38 twice and 2.5 once. Ah well. As well as I have been skiing in practice this year it is only a matter of time before I can run that damned purple regardless of conditions. For now, anyway, sub-100 :-(.

[Horton]

I will pray for rain

[Razorskier1]

Dog.

[Horton]

Woof

[6balls]

You've seen the show wife swap, right? I think that would be good for @razorskier1 and @horton to ski site swap! Minnesota has really stunk it up for skiers other than a 3 week period in August this year.

 

Time to get ready for skiwatch fall double, brutha. I predict a PB!! If nothing else, I guarantee some damned good ribs.

[jipster43]

@Horton test the Mapple T1 and this thread will become moot. I ski in a state that only had two tournaments this year, but there was still end course video and a veritable boatload of drivers who could pull someone through 39.

[Horton]

@jipster43‌ did you post in the right thread?

[jipster43]

@Horton I'm guilty of drinking a little wine and posting, but my point was if you get on a T1 you will improve on that 1.5@39. Silly post to be sure. I'm speculating that the Warp's construction would create a torsionally soft ski - much like the T1.

 

The other half of my post speaks to the resulting topics this thread evolved into. End course video and competent drivers at class c tournaments.

 

I've continued to drink since my original post, so I really can't discern the value of any of my comments. But I can tell you that despite the disparaging comments in the film Sideways - I love Merlots!

[Horton]

@jipster43‌ Keep drinking. I like a fruit forward Cab or thing bold but with out too much tobacco.

[jipster43]

If it goes with bacon, I'll drink it.