fin setup question

[Steven_Haines]

I was wondering what is most important, leading edge or trailing edge of the fin? @SkiJay‌ brought this point up in another thread. when you change your fin length you're actually changing where the leading edge of the fin is on the ski. The reason for my question is that Scott Larson set up my Quest for me. Although I'm getting good scores when I'm fresh but once I tire a little I end up crushing on my offside followed by falling over on my onside. Scott likes his ski to reach the apex and then abruptly go the opposite direction. Bottom line is that I'm not handling this all that well once I tire. I'm thinking of taking out a little tip and then adding that to the depth. So, do I try to match the leading edge or trailing edge to keep the feeling some what the same?

67 Quest

6.949, 2.479, .761 (slot caliber, similar to head#) 29.5 front boot

[mwetskier]

is the falling over on your onside due to lack of speed going into the turn or over turning the end of the turn? More depth will help you carry more speed going in and less dft will reduce over turning but you have to accurately analyze which it is.

[SkiJay]

@"Steven Haines"‌

Neither is more important. They affect two different behaviours, so you need to know which you want to change. The location of the leading edge affects mostly tip-engagement and the location of the trailing edge, mostly smear.

 

Knowing that ski, it must be pretty tip sensitive right now. I suspect you'll get what you're looking for by maintaining DFT while moving the leading edge back by .010" to .015" using FL. It must also roll steep and fast with its shallow FD too. If you prefer a bit more stability, support, and acceleration, you can try increasing FD by .005" to .010" too.

[Steven_Haines]

@SkiJay‌, that's exactly the feeling of the ski! It turns on a dime! But amazingly it never gets stuck in a hole, it just keeps moving. I was thinking about taking .005 away from FL and adding it back in FD to keep the same fin area. Think that's enough? Or should I go .010?

@mwetskier‌ , I think I have too much tip for the on side therefore digging a hole that I can't get out of. And yes, I think more speed would help, but I'm not able to achieve that from a crushed position from my offside. And, I think more depth would help me from getting so far over/deep on the on side.

[Drago]

I'm not sure I would change something Larson set up, but just start with a little less length. Or workout . Or, as the water gets colder you'll be fine. :)

[SkiJay]

If it was only a matter of .005", we'd probably not be having this conversation @"Steven Haines"‌. You'd just be experiencing less of the same things and it would be subtle enough that you might be doubting your observations and adapting.

 

I agree that your on-side issues are likely the result of the shallow FD, so a .010" move on both is a good safe start. You can always move .005" more or less from there.

 

Great call on wanting to maintain fin area in the process btw. Most people forget to consider how FA is being affected when making changes. For what it's worth, Scott Larson's setup is a nicely balanced setup; it's just on the extreme end of the spectrum requiring more strength and precision than I could consistently muster too.

[Steven_Haines]

@Drago‌, I've been Riding this set up since the beginning of July trying to get used to it and thinking the same thing as you, that I probably don't want to change anything Scott has set up.and you're spot on about working out, I definitely need to do that! d-)

@SkiJay‌, your probably right about the amount of the move. I can always adjust as needed. Larson is BEAST! When I'm strong the settings work well! But as @Drago‌ suggests, I need to work on my abs! That'd most likely fix everything.

[jimbrake]

I'm on a 67" Quest, too, set up as follows: 6.940, 2.505, .740, 29.5. My ski feels very "easy going" and manageable with this set up. After reading your post @"Steven Haines"‌, I think I want my ski to ride more like what you describe that Scott Larson wants - out to the apex then come right back the other way. I think I'll try closer to 6.950, leave the FD where it is or just a touch shallower, then start increasing DFT after that. I would like to feel my ski "bite" a bit more than it does now - on both sides actually. If anyone has other suggestions, please let me know.

 

thanks

[T_C]

@jimbrake I'm also on a 67" Quest with the same numbers as you except the bindings... I'm at 29 7/8. When I was at 29.5 I had to really jump on the front to turn off side and if I jumped too much the ski would stop after the apex. It was very unpredictable. By moving the bindings forward the tip engaged without having to move forward on the ski.

[Steven_Haines]

@jimbrake‌, my setup is very "lively" it's not unruly though! It's really easy to ride too! Part of my problem might be my weight. I'm 200#, so in theory I should be on a 68 but the 67 feels great! I've made a commitment to weight loss this year. I'm hoping I can get my body to reset itself to 195. Just can't get motivated when the weather has been in the upper 90's to low 100's. Gonna be mountain biking this winter though. That should help.

[jimbrake]

Might try going back forward with the bindings, too. I ain't got nuthin' to lose for the next 3 to 4 weeks of skiing. Might as well dink around with setup on every set.

 

I mainly went back to 29.5 to make the ski faster. As water cools down more forward might still be fast.

[Steven_Haines]

@jimbrake‌, wouldn't moving the fin forward give you more speed? 29.5 to me seems to be the sweet spot. What is your water temperature now? We were still 84 at Canyon Lake

[Waternut]

@skijay has been helping me with my 67" Quest and so far his advice has worked miracles for me and I would've never considered making the changes he said because I would've figured they'd be way too aggressive.

 

I'm 190lbs skiing at 34mph and I'm kind of a back foot rider unfortunately. A good day for me is getting a few balls at 35off. Average day is somewhere in the 32off range. Anyway, I've been all over the map with fin and binding setups. Sent @skijay a video and told him my configuration at the time. I ended up moving my bindings back from 29.8 to 29.6, DFT from .749 to .759 (slot), length from 6.923 to 6.915, and kept depth at 2.510 with a 7° wing. Not saying that setup is for you but I would've never gone in that direction on my own but this has been the most consistent I've ever had a ski perform.

[Steven_Haines]

@Waternut‌ , ya...it's nice when you get them dialed! @SkiJay‌ seems to have a good grasp on fin tweaking! I'm looking forward to trying his suggestions. Unfortunately I'm out of town so I won't get a chance to ski for another 5 - 7 days. I guess that's OK though since I skied 9 sets in 3 days last week. I'm not looking for a big change, just want to tone it down a notch so I can build some consistency. Since I got this ski at the beginning of July, I've been able to run my goal pass almost every round once I got used to it and got my boots set in a comfortable position. I just need to tweak it a little more and hopefully I can take a run at my PB from 2009. I feel it's in reach! Just need 2 full buoys. d-)

[jimbrake]

Last night tried 6.950, 2.495, 0.75, 7. Left boots at 29.5. Meh. No big new feeling good or bad. if anything, ski felt a bit more sluggish on my offside. Thought I'd feel a bit more tug from the front of the ski, but not so much. Think I liked it better where I was before. Our water is cooling, but not cold - maybe low to mid-70s.

 

I have this relatively unique onside (LFF - 1/3/5) problem that I'd like to get the ski setup to help me with while I continue to work on me. I can be running a pass just fine - early enough, space enough, and still go in at any given 135 turn. Just kind of screw myself down into the water. Different things/thoughts help - long distance vision (head up), level shoulders, staying countered back to the handle, slow handle release and skiing back to it, full extension, but I can still just go down on that side out of nowhere. Would like to get my ski to come back under me quicker on that side even though I'm trying to slow myself down in the turn. Any thoughts? I'll try to get some video to post.

[A_B]

Jim,

Looks like you tried more than one move at once. I am equally guilty of that at times and find that one move at a time gets faster results eventually.

 

If you want the ski to come around quicker on your offside, I would go back to where you were and try taking the depth out. Less depth usually makes the ski more responsive and easier to push around. Just need to see how much it hurts your onside. Just my 2c.

[jimbrake]

Thanks @AB‌ - more concerned with my onside coming around quicker. My offside is more consistent and predictable and can handle a variety of setups. I'd like it to come around quicker too, but it's not the priority that the onside is. Onside is same priority as a house fire. That I am in. And there is a bomb about to go off.

[Steven_Haines]

If you're going down on the on side, Schnitz recommends reducing tip pressure by moving the rear or both boots back, straighten a rotated rear boot, reduce tip, increase depth. He says that it is caused by having too much tip in your setup.

I fight the same thing on the on side.

[SkiJay]

@jimbrake‌ It sounds like the tail is too tight. DFT is still a bit short and the extra fin length, while making tip-engagement easier, is also increasing fin area which further adds to the tail's traction. FD is better now at 2.495", but the tail needs to be freed up to smear more if you want the ski under you more quickly. Give 6.940" (tips) and .760" (head) a fling to see if it livens things up enough. I'd like to see video of this because it should generate a lot of tip pressure and minor over-smear if you are working the front of the ski hard enough.

[Steven_Haines]

@jimbrake‌, one thing that I noticed was that your fin area is more than what mine is. I'm at 17.22 and your at 17.34. Not sure if that would be noticeable, but if .010 is noticeable, I would think that .12 would definitely be noticeable. If if not mistaken, a smaller fin area will give the ski a looser feeling.

[jimbrake]

Thanks guys. Last night I went back to 6.940, 2.500, 0.74 and it felt better (like it had been). I'll try just bumping the fin forward a bit with no other adjustments and see how that feels for the onside. @"Steven Haines"‌ - how are you calculating fin area? Is there a fin area formula floating around on BOS somewhere? Wait, you're just calc'ing the rectangular area of length times depth, right?

[Steven_Haines]

@jimbrake‌, ya... length × depth is the simplest way I know, it's not completely accurate, but close enough for our purposes.

I was able to pretty much eliminate screwing myself in by moving my rear boot back. I've got them back together right now though, it just feels more natural to me.

[thager]

Fluid Motions site used to have a fin area chart.

[Steven_Haines]

@thager‌, ya that was a pretty crazy program he had! I've looked for it but it seems that he took it down. It worked real well for me on my MPD. My PB was from one of his settings. It was some wild numbers, but it sure worked for me!

[A_B]

Running the longer fin helps the offside but can kill your onside, and you are running a long fin. You can try to leave length alone, and just take out depth to reduce fin area, or increase dft, one at time. Or, you can backoff legth a fuzz and see if you can get a compromise that doesn't degrade your offside much but picks up your onside. Back boot back might help also, and might be worth a shot without touching the fin, then try both boots back. if that doesn't work, move them back and then tweak fin. I have painfully learned making multiple adjustments at once ends up making you chase your tail most of the time.

[jimbrake]

I wonder what would happen if I keep fin settings the same, but run my fin backwards in the fin box? Huh? You ever think about that?

 

Seriously - thanks for the thoughts all. I probably should keep searching for optimum onside performance because I feel somewhat confident I will have a good offside with a variety of setups. I will go with more DFT, then shorter. Maybe move back with the back boot only a bit, too.

[A_B]

Would be great if you post what is the final key to unlock your inner beast onside turn.

 

[Steven_Haines]

@jimbrake‌, you should try the fin backwards! I've heard of people running the wing (with holes drilled in them) on their Goodes backwards at 10* with good results. Personally haven't seen it. But that's the rumor.

[A_B]

You can always flip the wing around on one side, sort of preload the turn...

[jimbrake]

Inner beast onside turn is right. It's the reason I'm not all right in the head.