The “Reverse C”

[Horton]

In the last few weeks I have spoken to more than one skier who asked “what the heck is the deal with the BallOfSpray readers and the darn Reverse C ?“ They were giving me hard time for promoting a concept seems to be misunderstood.

 

I assume that when most of you talk about “Reverse C" you think it happens right after the edge change - not at the ball.

 

Like “Big Spray” the “Reverse C” looks cool but neither are really indicators of good skiing. What the Reverse C indicates is 1) a lot of load at the centerline 2) shoulders level 3) separation of the hips from the handle 4) skiers COM is pretty far inside the path of the ski. Of these I think #2 is the only good thing.

 

I imagine a number of you just spit Kilo Kai (or some other beverage) on your keyboard so let’s back up. As the rope gets shorter it is more and more likely that “Reverse C" is going happen. I am not saying that getting in this position is necessarily a sign of poor skills but I am saying that it generally happens with a skier is approaching his or her limit and is losing control of the line.

 

Let the disagreement begin

[ForrestGump]

I'm with you. I always considered it to be like the edge change........ a byproduct of the things you did from the ball to centerline. Not a mechanic itself. But I think what it really shows is a static upper body, free from the lower body.

[A_B]

All I know is several years back when I was ripping my 35's and occasionally running 38 in practice, I really worked on this and started feeling it. How it felt, going into one ball, it felt like I was sitting on the top edge of my ski (right edge). I was also working on driving the ski out in front of me mid-way though the wakes. Both were major light bulbs after watching hours of pro tapes in slo mo and freeze framing. I would like to drop 60 pounds and pickup where I left off someday!

 

 

[Horton]

@ShaneH‌ are you sure you want a free lower body?

[A_B]

Keeping the hip connected (centerline cog, whatever) to the handle, keeping the shoulders back to maintain resistance, and getting the ski moved outside the initial path to its widest arc is what brings it about. I played around with this, taking some interesting out the back falls, so it did not come easy and without effort. Could have been all the years of skiing wrong by muscling my way through the course. I really felt the effort went up in intensity, but shorter duration. I seemed to pull too long as a fault, missing more passes because I pulled too long and carried too much speed.

[Horton]

@A_B‌ "keeping the shoulders back to maintain resistance"

 

What?

[A_B]

So you don't you get pulled over. That is top half of the C. At least that is how I think of it.

Watch as many videos from a side shore view as you can of top pros, and freeze frame them.

They all do it.

My guess it is to keep tension and level shoulders going into the turn. I could do it somewhat off my onside lean, going into my offside turn. Much harder for me going into onside turn.

[Horton]

@A_B‌ respectively I have no idea what you are talking about.

[mwetskier]

@Horton -when @A_B says keeping the shoulders ' back ' i think he means away from the boat not leaning toward the back of the ski. that what i get out of it any way.

[Horton]

Well that makes more sense.

 

@A_B‌ If The C requires separation it can not be positive.

 

clarification it is always going to happen a little little. I am discouraging people from trying to emphasize the C

[Drago]

@Horton‌ like I said in another thread, I am told I "do" a reverse c. If it's what professor Smith is doing above, I'm glad I am in that club. I don't think your definition is what we're looking at. To me, it's simply changing to and riding the new inside edge (somewhere darn near the center of the wake) without throwing your whole body over. It originates from your ankles and knees.Like everything, just forcing yourself into that position will not automatically mean you're doing It, or it will have the desired reaction (what it does for Nate).

[DanE]

@Horton When people are talking about the reverse C separation is defenitively not a part of it (if you mean separating the handle away from your COM).

In fact just the opposite.

Read BBs article about handle control where he describes several different key notes that all will lead up to the reversed C.

If I'm not mistaken the term originates from Steve Schnitzer.

And yes, picture of Nate above is what people consider to be reversed C.

[Ed_Johnson]

Schnitz had a great article and numerous pictures of the Pro Skiers and the Top Big Dawg Skiers in the Reverse C position, some years a go.

 

The only separation that occurs is the separation between the upper and lower body. Where the upper body remains in the lean away from the boat and the lower body releases the tension built up from the load and swings through onto the inside edge. There is no separation of the handle from the body.

 

 

[SkiJay]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "Reverse C" refers to this position, but the vaguely shaped "C" is only "reversed" on one side of the course. Can we please come up with a better name for it?

[A_B]

I said back, but away is probably a better term to use. Look at any of the pictures at where the skier is. They have just finished going through the wakes where your shoulders have to be back, away, or whatever you choose to describe it, or be Superman and stand straight up. Separate the ski and lower body from the top as the ski needs to get on a different edge and wider path WHILE you are still headed outbound from the center of the wakes. If your shoulders did not stay back/away, you would be totally on a new turn edge with COM inside the ski path and pulled narrow into the next ball, unless you had ridiculous angle out of the prior ball.

 

In practice, the only way I could hit this position was to make a deliberate effort to push the ski out in front of me. Could be that I learned slalom while in a bad position staying on top of the ski or whatever, but the breakthrough for me was to feel like I was following the ski into the turn, not vice versa. If the ski is out in front you at the end of the "pull" phase, and you stay connected at the hip, you will hit the "won't mention the letter" position as a byproduct. The shoulders get pulled up as you get near the buoy, but at that point, the skier is more erect and visualizing the turn.

 

The separation is between the upper and lower, with handle and hip attached at the core. Maybe separation is not the correct wording, as the upper and lower are moved to a similar position in relation to the handle.

 

I see you don't want to mention the letter position, but I think it actually represents the position fairly well. Maybe you could say the separation or transition point, where the shoulders and ski are both behind the handle. Prior to this, the shoulders were behind the handle and the ski was in front.

 

Below is my elementary drawing of what I think has to happen, and why the skier looks like a Reverse something... The orange line is the handle path, blue is shoulder path, and green is the ski path. At some point, the green ski path has to get behind the orange handle path to join with the blue shoulder path, at that point, if the orange handle is still connected to the skier core or hip, then you see the skier resemble the reverse C position. If you don't get the ski outside the handle path or ride the path inside the handle path too long, you are not gaining maximum ski path width.

 

 

 

[6balls]

Edge change with the lower body allowing the upper body to maintain line tension and be away from the boat with respect to the ski. I also see it in the turn for skiers like Nate who's hip goes low but shoulders stay level and head upright. I see it, but as a skier never crosses my mind and I sure as hell don't do it. Reverse C??? I'm about as flexible as one of these "!"

[A_B]

@6balls‌ - I agree with you. I think lean flexible athletes have an inherent advantage in achieving the widest ski path.

[SkiJay]

I like your drawing @A_B. It's accurate right down to the squiggly bits in my case =)

Apparently the "connected edge change?" is easier to do than to describe. Valiant effort.

[A_B]

CEC might be a way to label it. Reverse C seems to bother some... Shoulders and ski behind the handle, SSBH, nah..

[SkiJay]

Much harder for me going into onside turn.

 

Interesting comment @A_B, because looking at these pictures, which were all selected because they show it best, all but one of them (Asher) is going into their off-side turns. You're probably not alone finding it tougher, or just less natural, to accomplish going the other direction.

[MISkier]

I like CEC as a new name for it. Maybe add another E for Early. Connected Early Edge Change. The point is that you have the angle, have the speed, and maintain the away position with shoulders/upper body that will allow you to do the "early" portion of the edge change. If you don't have all three, you just change edges too early, get pulled over (or lean in toward the boat), and turn downcourse too soon.

[A_B]

Hey maybe my drawing can be on the next T-Shirt?

[A_B]

@Skijay I had a horrific OTR out the rear crash going into 4@38 trying to push my limited ability of hitting this position, and tore the crud out of my back ankle. Going into the onside turn like this was very hard for me, but I see it being done. I was concentrating on the ski path getting wide and in front of me and just pushed the envelope too far. Knocked me out of skiing for the rest of the year at the end of July. Had some big plans that year, probably the best I ever skied. Have never felt like that since.

[A_B]

Look at the ski path of Matt Brown above, this is the best pic of the bunch because you can see his path of the ski before and after the move. The ski has to get to a wider path than the original target path out of the turn, if you don't keep your shoulders back or away from the handle, you would get pulled over into a narrower path. With shoulders and ski behind the handle, viola!

[MISkier]

I think when this is accomplished, or even somewhat approximated, most people from the boat will comment that the skier maintained a "still upper body" or "quiet upper body". We've probably been describing it a number of ways.

[Ed_Johnson]

@MISkier....Your exactly correct in the fact that from the boat it will look like a quiet upper body because it is...But the question is, "How do you get that to happen ??

 

It is a product of proper forward COM Load Generation in the stacked position being ahead of the ski...You load ZO and ZO returns the favor..The ski will accelerate dramatically...By relaxing the legs and not changing your leveraged position and letting the ski come under and ahead of you, it will feel like your knees are going to come up and hit your chin.

 

The key is "Forward Stacked COM" and that is the really hard part, especially on your offside pull...So how do you get that ??

 

The easy answer is watch Nate Smith, Will Asher, or Marcus, who are experts at this. But what it comes down to, is that in order to get that Forward Stacked COM Position, you have to come off the apex with Forward Leading Com...When I was skiing with Joel Howley he told me, "Think of it as sitting on the ball." So that brings up the next question, how do you get that ???

 

That depends on how good you are at leading with COM coming into the apex, countering with your hips, "Not Just Your Arms."

 

So in retrospect the Reverse C starts way back with proper COM movement way back in the Pre-turn leading up to the apex and not just something that happens with the edge change.

 

 

 

[MISkier]

My favorite video of this is the Wim DeCree video from 2006. A quiet upper body, early edge change, ski out in front, and early/wide to the ball.

[Horton]

i agree with "most" of what i read above.

 

What i have not read much of / the misunderstanding / i feared => the idea that the skier wants to try to get the ski moving wide of the upper body. "Try" is the key word. I think a lot of readers think that is the idea.

 

If the idea is to keep your spine vertical and shoulders level with the handle in tight off the second wake => i totally agree.

 

Sounds crazy but I think you want to "try" to ride a flat ski off the second wake with spine vertical and shoulders level. The ski will flow wide of your COM but the slower your lower body flows out the better.

 

The images above showing the skiers shoulders still leaned away from the pylon after edge change is next level stuff. I think this is the sort of skill you want to skip until you are crushing 35. You need to have a lot of other dynamics working before this makes sense.

[Horton]

@‌a_b

Again respectfully "concentrating on the ski path getting wide and in front of me" what you talkin bout Willis?

[JAS]

@A_B‌ you nailed it. Simply a tale of two arcs. Easy to to see why more pronounced at shorter line lengths. Long pull locks hinge.

 

[A_B]

@Horton‌ - This is just me talking about my issues, could resonate with some other skiers or I could just be Willis from now on..

 

When I lean into the wakes, I hope that the ski is between me and the boat, and to gain leverage on the ski, I seem to do better when I am loaded a little more over the front of the ski vs. riding the tail. Trying to gain maximum width, I would push the ski out in front of me with bent knees like @Ed_Johnson‌ outlined above. The ski goes from an underneath to out in front position. At times it felt like I was pulling the ski from behind me, I don't know if anyone else feels that. When I felt like this, I was skiing really well. I guess it meant I was loading the front of the ski going into the wakes, and then sitting on the tail some after the wakes.

 

If you set your ski on a path out of the buoy and do not alter that path after the wakes, I don't know how you can achieve your maximum width on the course. I would not want to try this with the ski under me, as I think you would fall to the inside and go OTF.

[MISkier]

This is the video of Wim that I mentioned. 28 off through 39 off at 36 mph.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMeWeoIVNOI

[A_B]

Here are split second pics of Badal in action. The first shows his great strength behind the boat, the second how he gets the ski out in front of him a nano second later. This is the key move that separates the Big Dawgs from the Lil Dawgs, once you get to running 35 off and playing with 38, IMO.

 

 

 

 

[mwetskier]

' The "Reverse C" refers to this position, but the vaguely shaped "C" is only "reversed" on one side of the course. Can we please come up with a better name for it? ' @Jayski -the reverse c description has been in use for a pretty long time now at least a dozen years or more.

 

theres all kinds of inaccurate words and phrases used in other sports like ' touchdown ' in football. it goes back to the early origins of football where the guy with the ball had to actually touch the ball down to the ground on the far side a goal line to score. in modern football that has never been a requirement but does that mean the term will ever change? i seriously doubt it.

 

in tennis a score of zero is called ' love ' and that goes way back too but if you end a match with a score of ' love ' i'm pretty sure you aint loving it.

 

so since it only matters to a skier advanced enough to know the reverse c position exists and what it means in the first place why not leave well enough alone?

[Horton]

@a_b my friend you and I need a beer summit. I can't begin to tell you how many things we disagree about when it comes to slalom

[A_B]

@horton, can always use beer. How would you describe Badal's photos above? You can freeze frame any of the top skier and they pretty much all look like this, after being stacked over their ski a split second prior. I can't think of one person running 39 that doesn't get into this position, can you? This is the critical move you and I were debating years ago. I don't think we reached clarity then either...

 

I do ski with some guys who are running 38, and even 39 on a good day, and getting into the "chair" position after the wakes is one thing we look for from the boat. Call it whatever you want, get there however you want. If you don't do it, odds will be against you.

[rawly]

Thanks for clarifying that the reverse C is only correct in one direction @SkiJay. That's what I always thought , but hell , I'm only a 35 off guy. How about CRESCENT ? That works in both directions. Must be cold in many parts of our country. This is a lot of posting for a Saturday.

[Horton]

@A_B‌ aka "Willis" (for third time in one day - With all due respect)

 

What you are seeing with Greg and with almost any skier at 39 or shorter when they are under pressure is that they are overloaded and their knees come up to release load (something like that). It is not a deliberate thing. It is something that happens when elite skiers are scrapping or near fail. It just happens and it is something that should be minimized or avoided.

 

If you disagree “riddle me this”: If the ski shoots out in front of the skier how is the skier not on the tail and have to climb back forward? Tell me again - what is the benefit?

[A_B]

I think you are wrong in your assessment that it only happens when they are scrambling or over loaded. Might not do it at 28 off, but you can see it starting to show up at 32 off. I am not sure how a skier could move the ski path back behind the handle path with straight legs. Again, just relating it to how I could do it, and I haven't been at that level for a long time. There are a lot of ways to skin the cat in slalom, so whatever works for you. We don't have to agree and I don't have to be right. Just making conversation and seeing what everyone else thinks.

[Horton]

@A_B‌ might have to be a single malt summit.

[Drago]

@Horton‌ , it's being athletic. To run 39 all day like those guys do, you gotta get as much as you can--none of this "light on the line" crap. If, later, you have to suck it up and bleed off a little of the energy, that's what you see. It's easy to climb back forward(or, more accurately, to the center) because you are absolutely hauling ass. Perhaps it should be "avoided", but they aren't in a test tube or on graph paper. They are out there scrapping or near fail at every moment. So, am I saying you should do this at 35 off? Probably not, but..

[Horton]

@Drago‌ the point is this is not something skiers should try to learn to do. It happens near failure but that does not make it a skill to be learned.

[SkiJay]

Over the past year I've had two top level coaches recommend something a lot like this to me. Neither referred to it as reverse C; but describe it along the lines of using the upper and lower body independently off the second wake.

 

The point being that your ski has to pass you outbound at some point, somewhere not too far past the centerline ideally, and you don't want to give up your upper body leverage against the rope while this is happening.

 

The confusion seems to be in the belief that you have to pass through some contorted "C" position for it to be correct; a position that works but isn't mandatory.

 

Chris Parrish accomplishes this transition without getting nearly as "decoupled" as some of the other pros. His hips move through his edge change in unison with his knees and ski. Others, like Will, Terry, and Nate, move their ski and knees through first then their hips as if maintaining spinal alignment with the pull from the boat for as long as possible.

 

Either way, I don't think the position should be the goal. Focusing effort on trying to strike an extreme "reverse C" seems as misguided as throwing your free hand back to strike a counter-rotated pose. It opens the door to undesirable dynamics.

 

The pose isn't the goal; maintaining a structurally-strong, close, handle connection during an early edge change is the goal. If you truly meet that goal, doing whatever works best for you, it will automatically look great.

[A_B]

And for me and probably other skiers, I had to make a deliberate effort to get my ski and knees oitside the path and it felt like my ski was stuck behind me or under me, so when I started focusing on unsticking it, the sensation was that I was pushing it out from under me. It probably relates to how I self-taught myself and my strength to weight ratio as I came up in skiing, where I stayed over the ski and used brute force for a long time.

I can't be the only guy doing that gig. At times when I watch your videos @Horton‌, you appear to muscle through your passes a little. Just my opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong. And I only mean it to help.

[MISkier]

Since my experience will only apply at 28 off and 32 off, it won't really reflect the forces and intensity of the technique required at the shorter line lengths. So, apply that value to my comments. When I have experienced the type of connected early edge change (reverse C or whatever people want to call it) and/or I have received the "quiet upper body" comment from the boat crew, I had to do something to get it. It seemed subtle enough, but it was a purposeful motion with the lower body and a slight softening of the knees to get the ski on the other edge, outbound, and slightly in front just at the second wake while still keeping the handle in, etc. For me, it didn't just happen as an automatic result of any particular pre-wake position.

 

One other point, it was far more deliberate to do this going into my offside turn. I think it was also more effective and natural to implement if I was particularly early going into that offside turn with good angle and speed. My scramble mode doesn't get to see this technique - I need to get things started well and capitalize on that in order to achieve this concept. And, even at the longer line lengths, the effect is there. I had this working well during a couple passes this past season that I completely smoked. No doubt in my mind that it helps when you use it properly.

 

I don't know if you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to get this at 38 off (I'll let you know when I get there) or beyond, but I don't think I did at the longer line lengths.

[Deep11]

@Horton , just to be clear when you say:

"It happens near failure but that does not make it a skill to be learned."

I take you are talking about the "shooting the ski through" and resultant "chair position"?

In which case i get it. With everything I've been working on it seems that the reverse "C" is the opposite - it is what happens when ( with good acceleration out the "sweet spot"

[Deep11]

.?? Lost the last bit of my post?......

With everything I've been working on it seems that the reverse "C" is the opposite - it is what happens when ( with good acceleration out the "sweet spot"

[Deep11]

Hmmmm - my text is not posting - something is against me!

[Deep11]

Success! - I think?

-

- With everything I've been working on it seems that the reverse "C" is the opposite - it is what happens when ( with good acceleration out the "sweet spot") staying balanced and connected, you actually resist letting the ski shoot through.

 

Shooting the ski through loses direction and balance yet everyone I know has at some point tried it as a technique.

Perhaps you could put it in your "how to ski shortline" book as something to avoid?

 

 

[Horton]

@Deep11‌ yes yes yes