Long line...short line.. are they really that different?

[MDB1056]

This is one of the best BOS threads in a while. Excellent discussion points here. Yes longer lines are NOT easy for the reasons already stated here. It’s harder to generate speed and angle and I'm so glad to see folks saying you do NOT need to get very high on the boat at pullout. Only high enough for appropriate turn for a good gate and an early turn on one ball. As there is WAY more rope than needed to reach the buoy line these longer line passes are more about timing than anything else . Yes it’s quite surprising on multiple fronts that a number of things actually get easier as the line gets shorter ( up to a point) . Bottom line longline and -15 are not easy to learn in the course. 22 and shorter are much more fun

[swbca]

If you have a good memory, you will recall the first time you shortened the rope from your initial rope length, you got slack because you weren't prepared to complete your turn more quickly. As the rope gets shorter each step requires completing the turn more quickly.

 

A successful instruction 1964: my older brother completed 36 long line for the first time in his life, and it happened in his first tournament. He had never tried 12 off in practice. . in 1964 if you completed your maximum speed on long line, you went back out at 12 off after every one else had skied. He realized he could place in the tournament if he ran a few buoys at 12 off. He asked me what to do different. All I said was "commit to turning sharper, the rope will feel like its pulling you towards the wake". It was his first tournament and he placed 2nd with 1 @ 18 off. He skied in the Massachusetts Nationals a month later.

 

Watching most of the early seed women at the world tournament ski into slack at 35 off made me want them to learn you can't do the same comfortable arcing turns at 35 off that you do at 32 off . Develop your technique and set up your ski to complete your turns FAST.

[VONMAN]

@Horton 7 years ago I coached a skier in our club, on a good day he could run 38 off at 34 mph with Zero Off. But in doing so was taking major hits off the ball. He was also using a one handed gate. Had him start at 32 off with a two handed gate and make his line load more progressive, smoother. Then 35 off, then 38 off. Now I could feel him loading (heavy) behind the boat. We worked on this for two weeks. Then he was ready to give 39.5 a shot. And the hits off the ball were back. That's when I realized as the rope gets shorter the angle off the ball increase's to 45 degrees or more. At that angel with a tight line you better be darn ready for the load because it wants to rip you out of you ski. So the fix is to maintain enough speed to be free of the boat till you can connect back with the boat at less than 45 degrees.

So back to my story, He's at 39.5 and makes it to 4 ball. I didn't feel any hits and he has a big smile on his face. Next time out he runs the line and clears 39.5 off. Work a couple of more times at 39.5 is getting easy and no hits. A week goes buy and it's time to try 41 off. He starts at 32, 35, 38, 39.5 all smooth and clean. Rope set at 41 and just like that 2 balls at 41off. Wants another shot at 41, OK here we go, Sig makes the turn around 4 ball headed to 5 and pop's the handle. 4 balls at 41 off, and on my end I didn't feel him on the wheel. No hits coming off the ball just nice smooth skiing.

I can't take credit for what I did but I did get a little insight from a brief conversation I had with Mr. Smith at a tournament about that time. I asked "how do you make it look so easy? You don't look like you work at all". His reply "I'm working my guts out when I'm behind the boat".

So when the rope exceeds 45 degrees you need have enough speed to carry you around the ball and connect with the handle at under 45 degrees. Go out and free ski and try running 39.5-43 you will be amazed at how small the work zone gets!

[Mastercrafter]

@VONMAN you mean to tell me someone turned 4 buoys at 41 at the Boro? Crazy.

[ReallyGottaSki]

@swbca , '64, that would have been in Webster

[OldboyII]

My apologies if I missed the answer in the thread above.

For big and heavy guys with more or less good stack - what about learning the course by shortering the line from 18 to 16 and simultaneously redusing the boat speed from 49 km to 46?

 

[VONMAN]

@Mastercrafter Yes, it was Sigbjorn Kristiansen or Sig. Ask Steve about it.

[Gray_Mac]

@swbca

Makes sense what you say but how do you find the balance between turning the ski faster and waiting for the ski to come around?

[scoke]

@Gray_Mac

 

Obviously not the person you are asking but i'll answer the question from a similar perspective and with actual Zero Off experience.

 

turning the ski faster and waiting for the ski to come around

THEN LEAN.

 

Meaning, keep your water speed up through the turn, keep shoulders and body vertical, ski comes under the rope (still vertical stance), get set, THEN LEAN against the boat. On certain brands of skis, this is needed and crucial. You'll be closer to the first spray to start working and being able to hold your energy through the centerline easier.

 

Watch that Charlie Ross 39 off video. Great example of Turn-Set-Lean.

Nate Smith, Turn-Set-Lean

 

The lean means putting the shoulders against the boat at the proper time not out at the buoyline.

 

 

Perfect-Pass or hand driving days, TURN-LEAN. All day.

ZO-Turn-Lean, FAIL.

 

Make Sense?

Have any video?

 

Sure there are guys that post on here that will 100% disagree with me. And they are correct, for them. They have the experience to decelerate and be able to work with the ski. A -15, 22 and even some 28-35 skiers, won't be able to handle the energy nor will be able to deal with the energy second spray outbound.

 

[swbca]

@Gray_Mac You asked "the fine line between waiting for the ski to turn versus turning the ski" . . . Any description is incomplete because its a complex set of inputs to the ski. On short line the skier has to do more to complete the turn in a very short space and time, and do it more aggressively on very short lines. With most skiers on very short line, on their "off-side" they commit the tip of the ski more aggressively to bring the ski around. On the their "on-side" the commitment may be shifting weight back aggressively, or forward or by more extreme edging with body position, it varies with the skier and ski. The skier is maybe waiting a few 100's of a second for feedback from the ski, but the skier initiates almost everything the ski does.

 

In every case the skier has to provide more input to the ski for it to turn in a very short space at higher skier speed compared to a longer line. On some rope lengths, perhaps 32 off and longer, the ski seems to do all the work, because the skier's speed is better controlled and his input is relaxed and minimal. But the ski never does it all on its own. With the top skiers, its maybe 38 off that is relaxed and minimal.

[swbca]

@ReallyGottaSki You got it right, Webster is a town in the state of Massachusetts. The name of the lake is Chaubunagungamaug.

[ReallyGottaSki]

@swbca , thats my playground. I was minus 3 then, but the organizers and local participants of that endeavor were my ski mentors since, some have passed but many are still driving , skiing even barefooting. Still a ski lake with 2 active clubs. If you're ever around i'll take you for an early morning tug.

[swbca]

Do they still have the Jump along side the #3 slalom ball. At the 1964 Nationals almost half of the right foot forward skiers fell on the #3 ball because of backwash off the ramp.

 

You are very fortunate to have a long lasting community of ski friends and partners. Thats one of the best parts of the sport.

[ReallyGottaSki]

Yes i think it always was an issue of some degree at events

The site hosted some eastern regionals, then some class C , Novice tournaments and charity ski shows into the mid eighties,

I learned that after the national events, the town offered the site to the club, but with forward thinking, they did not want to become boxed into the cove.

The formerly grassy spectator mound/island was maintained by the town for a good while but last few decades has been left overgrown, now hosts small trees and scrub, the boat ramp and tall pines remain, and the town beach just got a playground and pavilion facelift. A 1 to 7 litre and blown alcohol hydro race was hosted at the site maybe 6 years ago, with good success. the ski cove was tending to retrieving the prior heat, and warming up the next heat, while the main lake did the racing in front of the beach for good spectating.

the lake host great freeskiing with mile-long runs one can get 30+ cuts before turnarounds.

the slalom course is in front of many walled frontage, so is only good for a pass or two.

[lefty]

This is a great thread esp the parts about skiing the course. @scoke you nailed it, major lightbulb moment up here in Canada, yes still skiing.

[Gray_Mac]

@swbca that kinda makes sense but if I understand correctly you're saying there isn't really such a thing as "waiting for the ski to turn". It's more about that at each rope length (taking variables into account for each skier) it's a case of how long do I wait before I pull the handle in or start to lean.