Long line...short line.. are they really that different?

[Wish]

So I was coaching a long line slower speed skier this morning and kept hearing myself say a lot of the same things to him that I would a short line skier. And telling him that I'm working on the same thing..doesn't matter what line length or speed. Many similarities in my mind when it comes to giving advice. What are the crossovers?. What would you say to a long line skier that you end up saying or have said to a short line skier? I think we tend to separate the groups way to much and this would be a good time of year to spell out the things that are flat out the same for both. For example "stacked".

[TylerR]

Almost everyone could use a better stack, not overturn the balls (slamming them like I tend to do), and almost everyone could use a few hundred more reads through the handle control article that for some reason i can't find on my phone.

[Onside135]

As long as you don't let go of the rope, you still have a chance. This is true at both long and short line...

[Than_Bogan]

I think there are only a few elements that truly shortline specific. The vast majority of elements are the same. We're all working on roughly the same stuff -- just stuck at different points.

[Razorskier1]

I have found that there are similarities. Hardest thing for long line and slower speeds is getting people to attack the first wake (given it is pretty big) versus trying to pull after the second wake (which I've seen a lot of people do).

[Horton]

I think this is a really good question. I lean toward saying that there are a number of mostly unique phases (plateaus) but I have a lot more questions than answers on this subject.

 

One thing I do know is => If you normally go off the dock at 28 or shorter and run 35 or shorter and have not tried 15 off in a while => is it wacky hard and different. At longer lines the boat is almost always on you. You never make space. Stack and connection are important to prevent crashing but not necessary to run the pass (if you are learning to run the course please disregard what I just said – stack is what you need to learn).

 

When I coach skiers that cannot yet run the course I am nowhere near as confident in my coaching as I am with a skier at 22 off or shorter. 28 and 32 off are much easier than longer line lengths – once you have the skills.

 

[andjules]

Ha! @Horton my coaching skills die out just where yours pick up.

 

It's true that fundamentals are largely the same, but some more important than others.

 

As per @Razorskier1 the most important skill is being able to pull through the first wake — I don't think I've ever seen anyone learn -15/28mph or harder while still flat skiing over the wakes. And that means their stack has to be at least that good.

 

The biggest thing you can get away with is pulling long. Yes, you can go on youtube and watch Seth Stisher run -15/30 without pulling past the centerline, but a skier who is just getting to that level usually can't generate the angle and acceleration to do it like Seth. Most skiers at -15/30mph and slower (and especially those on '75 line) will pull a bit past the second wake. For where they're at, I tend to think that's ok. There is a limit, obviously - they still need a preturn or they're going to get heaps of slack.

[Onside135]

I think more is similar than it is different. One thing I'll say is that I don't think it generally hurts someone just starting out to hear shortline or advanced techniques, as most apply in some fashion to the longer line lengths.

 

Also, I know for me I've heard some stuff over the past few years that are just now starting to click. "Oh….so that's what they are talking about…" kind of moments. When I initially hear about it or read about it hear on BoS, I think that must just apply at 38 or shorter…then one pass I'll feel it in my own skiing and think…that makes sense. Repeating it is a whole other issue...

[GOODESkier]

It all costs the same........ $$$ You can ski well or you can ski bad, you can waste ski time or you can use it to improve. In the end, it all costs the same in time and money.

[jimbrake]

@Horton - re: 15 off and the boat being on you all the time - the further behind the boat you are the less acceleration and speed you can develop so, yeah, it's more difficult to make space before the next ball. So, would you say that at long line, or 15, or 22 that you should be still striving to get very wide (i.e., further up on the boat)? You will get yourself overly wide relative to the buoy line, but could generate more speed and ski a much earlier line. I think this would be a good thing for a longer line skier to learn rather than being way back behind the boat and struggling to get across and early because the boat isn't helping them as much. Your thoughts?

[GOODESkier]

@jimbrake‌ in my head, every inch you proceed out past the buoy line, is 2 inches you didn't have to travel.

[Horton]

Does 15 off “feel” like anything like 35 off? No. It is very different experience. At 15 the loads are light. Managing loads is not an issue. Acceleration and speed are not warping your mind. The idea of getting high on the boat is basically useless. I think trying to getting extra “wide” is futile. It just about getting past 37.5 feet from center before the ball goes by.

 

Because acceleration from the ball to the wakes is low it is easy for the boat to just pull the skier inside the next ball.

 

At maybe 28 and shorter the acceleration between the ball and the wakes is enough to get you high on the boat. The ability to make speed from the ball to the wakes changes everything. In my mind it is all about speed and acceleration. Since advanced math is not my strength I am going to stop before I say something completely ignorant.

 

On the other hand the most fundamental skills are the mostly the same. Most skiers who struggle at 15 or 22 do not have an adequate stack or the ability to hold what stack they have across the wakes. If you had those skills these passes are no longer a challenge.

 

Up until 38 off (ish) most skiers could still use a better stack. I run 38 on a good day and I think my stack could use some work. If the subject at hand directly impacts body alignment I think the same things apply no matter what the line length is.

 

Otherwise I do not know. I HATE coaching skiers who are trying to run the course for the first time because it makes me feel so dumb. I literally have no idea. I want to say “Get someone else to help you and come get me when you need help at 32 or shorter”.

 

[Horton]

@jimbrake‌ at 15 off 34 miles an hour I'm not even sure it's possible to become very wide. taking the handle outside the ball line yeah sure but I don't know how much wider than that you can get and I really don't know that I believe in the advantage

[jimbrake]

Hey you were the one complaining about the boat being on you (the skier) at all times at 15. My point was just about how to get a bit freeer (new word I made up) by getting a bit further up on the boat. Sounds like you and Goodeskier advocate being narrow. It's not about width at the ball, it's about position in the swing up on the boat and yes at 15 that will get you wide, but it'll be earlier and you'll backside the ball without the boat being on you through the preturn and early part of the turn. Nevermind. What compelled me to get into this anyway?

[Wish]

@jimbrake‌ what you say is valid in my opinion. Not really seeing anything more then a discussion here so far. Keep the ideas flowing.

[Horton]

@jimbrake‌

I do not advocate skiing narrow. I think that is a very bad idea. If @Goodeskier means that the way I read it => that should be another thread. Early is better than wide but I never want to be narrow. Kill me now if that leads to a conversation about coordinates.

 

What I should have said is that getting very much wider at all at 15 off 34 mph requires a lot of extra effort and you will still be behind the boat. I do not think you can practically get wide enough to change the acceleration back to the wakes and that whole idea may be a boondoggle anyway (math people?) The dynamics of that line length basically suck unless you slow the boat way down.

 

I am tempted to say something like “Rate of acceleration has much more to do with line length than width on the boat” but I do not want @Than_Bogan to have to explain how wrong I am.

 

[jimbrake]

Well, I thought I was out, but now I'm back in. So for discussion purposes, say at 34 or 36 15 what if you start your pass with a pullout that gets you up to some point pretty far up on the boat, like the swim platform or the transom or the motor box. You'd be pretty wide of the 246 buoy line, right? That's not that difficult to do is it? Then assuming you can turn in forward on your ski, ski into a good stack, generate some good speed and angle, stay good and connected through the edge change, don't you think you swing up to a similar width on the 135 side? Given the above, you'd likely be way early, way wide and be set up to backside 1. That's all I'm saying. I don't think it's that hard. It's all about how you start and what you do with it.

[rockdog]

I know what your saying @jimbrake exactly because I'm a 15-22 off guy usually. However, a really high and wide gate is not really where you end up at 1-3-5 just because the line is so long. Simply due to the long line dictates as get you through the course you will get narrower. Early is what you want, not wide. This is how I think of it anyway.

 

As wide on gates as is possible for shortline is a necessity because you will keep that width all through the course, doesn't happen at 15off.

[Wish]

@rockdog‌ wide gates may be optimal but not necessary at short line. I watched both Andy and @Razorskier1‌ shoot half pull out gates with instant success at..I believe 38 off. I am guessing the opposite may be true for longer lines in that wide gates may in fact set some folks up for a good pass. When my back heals up I'm going to do some long line skiing. I am curious.

[rockdog]

@Wish I stand corrected on shortline comments, my policy is normally to observe only on that.

 

To clarify, getting wide gates for long line is good setup, just saying as you go through you don't keep that width, you'll end up narrower but early and have a good pass.

[Horton]

@jimbrake‌ In the below video on my 34 pass I would guess the ski is at about 40 feet wide of the center line. How much wider do you think a skier at this line length should be?

 

 

Silly winter thought. The balls are 37 1/2 feet from the center and at 15 off the rope is 60 feet long. If the balls were 47 1/2 feet out there could I run 15 off. My guess is no.

[Moggie]

I think what @jimbrake is referring to is that when you're wide at 15off you really do feel more acceleration out of the buoy than when you're narrow. Whether this gets you to the next buoy any earlier is debatable as you have to travel further. I've had passes at 15off 34mph where I've been a good 6 feet wider than the buoy line. You generate so much more speed as the angle of the rope is starting to pull you more inbound than down course. Running 15off wide gets you closer to the whip you start feeling at 22off.

[DmaxJC_ski]

For me as a longline skier I was hitting my gates real good for the longest time, and then struggle hit and I couldn't figure it out, finally after watching video after video and people skiing it hit me, I was pulling too long and too wide for my gates, I was gliding so fast and so far out that when it came time to pull in I had major slack to the point where I would almost have to bail, I cut my pull out in half and things went back to normal, I was also pulling too long to the buoys for some time which obviously isn't beneficial. So from my own personal experience you can get too wide at longline for your gates, timing creates space and allows you to ski early on the long line.

[Moggie]

@DmaxJC_ski, what you're describing isn't being too wide, its being too fast into the buoy. If you're still gaining on the boat at the buoy you're too fast which likely because you were taking your gates too aggressively. That's what causes the slack rope.

[GOODESkier]

@horton in no way am I advocating narrow. Maybe I should have used feet in my units of measure. I have watched some people get way wide at long line or 15' off. I just have this mentality that distance traveled can be factor in skiing. Why travel 4 feet wide of the ball? You just traveled out 4 feet, only to have to make up that 4 feet again to get back the other way.

 

I remember reading a segment somewhere, that for every inch you lower a ski ball in the water, a skier can run 4 inches narrower in the course. Start adding that one up for an advantage. Not sure when that regulation height was changed, but for an obvious reason. The less distance traveled, the better/easier.

[Chef23]

At the gates at 15 off I think it helps to be wider than the balls particularly for most beginning course skiers. Generally most skiers aren't carrying the same speed at the turn in as they are coming out of a buoy and they don't build speed as quickly. Being a little wider at the gates than they are in the course allows them to generate the same speed into the wakes that they would have in the course.

 

I just watched Horton's 15 off video and with his 1 handed gate he is carrying more speed in his turn in for the gates than most beginning skiers. Horton also begins to generate speed faster than most beginning skiers. I do think that Horton is still a little slower into the wakes at the gates than he is between buoys in the course which can be a tough thing for beginning skiers to manage and makes it difficult for them to get a good start.

 

I know that when my son was working up to max speed he used to struggle with turning inside of 1 ball at times. This happened when he didn't have enough width at turn in and carry enough speed into the wakes. He would come off the pull at the whitewater like he would in the rest of the course and either come up short turning inside of 1 ball (this happened to him on his opener at his first regionals) or have to ride flat and generate slack. Having more width helps avoid this.

[jimbrake]

@Horton - 4 ft wide of "centerline"? Huh? You mean the buoy line? I'm not advocating that a skier "should" be wider, I'm just saying a skier could be wider at long lines and make it work fine. My point was just in response to your initial comment (or complaint) about how the "boat is on you all the time" at longer lines. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be.

[Horton]

@Chef23‌ I am by no means the skier to emulate at 15 off or any line length. the only thing I'm sure of is that 15 is a very odd length. unfortunately skiers really do need to learn at those longer length but once you have a good stack and a few other skills 28 is so much easier.I guess then 32 off is a slap in the face until you learn that next set of skills and then every pass after is just a little bit more particular.

[Chef23]

@Horton I didn't think you were trying to be a skier to emulate at 15 off in that video you were trying to show how awesome the wakes are on the Centurion.

 

The challenge with beginning skiers watching videos of you, Seth or any skier that can run 35 off running slower speeds and long lines is that you guys posses fundamentals that beginning skiers don't. As a result beginning skiers need to do things like make sure they pull from white water to white water that result in more accomplished skiers carrying way too much speed at the ball.

 

There may be a path to teaching skiers to run the course by teaching them the right position out of the ball and to load strong into the middle of the wake and begin the edge change early but I haven't witnessed it.

 

I do think the fundamentals of a strong body position accelerating into the first wake and being able to hold that through the center of the wakes are consistent whether you are running 28mph/15 off or running 35 off and beyond.

 

Personally I am finding running 35 off much more difficult than getting through 32 off for the first time. If I ever get to the point where I feel like I can run -35 consistently I can only imagine how long it will take to run 38.

[jhughes]

There are similarities and crossovers in technique for sure. I don't think that's deniable. What's different is between shortline skiers and beginner skiers is time on water, experience, and perspective. Allow me to ramble on this a bit since a lot of this stuff is still fresh for me.

 

During my first few seasons chasing balls I remember off-side wake crossing as being mildly terrifying and terribly uncomfortable. I remember OTFs being a very real and possible event (ear drum ruptures X 4, broken rib as well in those beginning years). No amount of times hearing about stack or hips up was going to change that. I remember 32mph seeming 10X harder than 30. I remember 34mph being an entirely new world. I remember how hard it was to get good water time. All this time I had pretty consistently good coaching and ski school visits but everything in between was a toss-up. I remember really not knowing much about equipment and setup at all. As drivers I'm sure we were horrible. An experienced skier doesn't deal with much, if any of these thoughts or experiences, but this is the baseline that a beginner is working with and what tips/technical advice are overlaid upon.

 

Here is my first time running the course back in 2004. Public water. Look at that boat path. Check out the water conditions. No perfect pass, either. Missed the exit gates I guess. At this point I was pretty clueless. I knew I wanted a ski boat because I thought they were cool. I knew I wanted to run the course badly (we had ordered a portable around this timeframe). I had just gotten a new ski (2004 HO Truth baby, brand new) but I didn't know anything, really, at that time. We only got to run balls if we had good weather, no wind, and could all make it to the lake early enough to deploy the course before the wally crowd. It has taken me a full 10 seasons to run -28@34mph but I know exactly why it took so long and that's what I'm trying to explain here.

 

 

No amount of coaching, and I had tons of it from all sorts of legends in the sport, was going to compensate for time on water, experience, and as a result of the first two, perspective. That's why those first 5-7 years were so slow with progress. You see it all the time- people attending clinics or getting coaching or begging for tips online but then not backing it up with lots of time on the water and a plan. They ski once a week or every other week and are frustrated when they don't improve. This is a sport that requires feeling things on the water and the only way to do it is by skiing. A lot. Advanced skiers have felt this stuff and they've put in the time.

 

How many times in the early days did I have some HUGE AH-HA! moment only to lose it a week later and regress? "Oh I felt this and that and man it was so awesome and easy and yadda yadda" then a week later it's long gone.

 

People you see ramping up quickly in skill are skiers getting rapid, regular injections of water time and guidance from many angles, not just technique. These are kids growing up with parents who are in the sport and have access to water, or adults buddying up with friends that can ensure regular water time, feedback, and direction. They are not just giving them technical tips. They are giving full guidance including a plan of attack, equipment advice, a good boat pull, talking them off the ledge when needed and providing a true north for their progression holistically.

 

Rather than giving a beginner a technical tip I think I'd rather ask them "what's your plan?" How are they going to execute and practice and feel anything they learn? What are they going to do daily/weekly/monthly to get them to their goal? What feedback and routines will keep them on course?

[Horton]

@Chef23‌ 100000% agree

[gt2003]

Thanks for sharing your first pass @jhughes‌ ! I only hope I perform half that well during my first try!

[Horton]

@jhughes‌ good stuff

[Zman]

@Horton‌ You mention the "slap in the face" at 32 off until you learn the next set of skills. To you, what are these key next skills?

[Zman]

Regarding skiing wide at 22 off, or not so wide - I feel getting some extra width helps to turn by casting the ski out versus a tendency to push the ski into turning. There are times I go into the turn thinking "what am I doing way out here", but then the ski casts out nicely and I accelerate well out of the turn in good shape for the next ball. Seems like there is a balance between too much width and enough to set up a proper turn you can use into shorter line lengths.

[ToddL]

An excerpt from a post in the edge change thread:

There are two conflicting elements in this discussion...

1) how typical beginners approach -15/-22, and

2) the most optimal way to ski -15/-22

 

These two things are in conflict in that most beginners don't have a sufficient foundation of technique to attempt #2. Yet, why in the heck would you want to learn how to do something the wrong way only to later have to unlearn that and relearn the correct way?

 

The answer lies with short term vs. long term rewards.

 

Basically, long line skiers are typically still trying to figure out stack and confidence attacking the wakes. Without these fundamentals, they end up pulling longer just to round buoys. They can be successful in rounding buoys with this strategy, but it builds bad habits which limit them later on.

 

The main difference between long line/slow speeds and short line is that long line skiers are always behind the boat - even when they are rounding the buoys. It is not until 28off, that the skier's angle up on the boat might break the 45 degree mark. Everything below that pass the skier is more behind the boat than up on it. This key difference defines why those passes just feel and work differently than everything from 28 off and shorter.

 

As a result of never getting up on the boat at the longer lines, the skiers have an option of pulling longer with less stack and still rounding buoys. It is a short-term rewards strategy that get's the skier jazzed about slalom course skiing and provides quick rewards and gratification. However, it creates a plateau that the skier has to later re-learn slalom to get past 28 off.

[DmaxJC_ski]

@Moggie‌ yes your absolutely right, I guess what I was saying is, is there a point of diminishing returns on a longline as for width prior to the gates? I feel for my own personal style there is ( which may not technically correct ) but it works for me.

 

So most skiers have a slight difference in style, or what works for them. Not any 2 are the same, so I guess a question I have for the more elite skiers here is... when you are coaching lower end skiers, do you coach to your style? Or are you able to look at the style of that particular person and coach according to what you see in their skiing and make it work for them?

 

Say for instance, skier runs 32 consistent, you makes change and now doesn't run it at all, do you adjust to the skiers style if not entirely perfect but it works for them

[Wish]

when you are coaching lower end skiers, do you coach to your style? Or are you able to look at the style of that particular person and coach according to what you see in their skiing and make it work for them?

 

That's an interesting question. Style counts in my book. But not necessarily mine but perhaps some of theirs. Their is always something you can find in a skier that is correct. I typically point that out first so that is not lost. Then yes, I will typically suggest things that may take the skier 2 steps back. I've had the best coaches in the would give me tips and only a handful of suggestions have added buoys to my score the first go. Most are adjustments I need to make in form to advance past a certain line length. This usually has to be worked on at an easier pass. So 1 step back to take 2 steps forward is a good thing in my book.

[lpskier]

I always thought that what you learn at one line length or speed is the foundation for learning the next succeeding pass. Learn it the right way, and learning the next pass is "easy;" learn it the wrong way and you have probably established a limitation on how far you will go in the sport. Since I have skied with the best coaches over a 45 year tournament carrier (with a big gap in the middle) and have perfect form, I have concluded that 3@11.25 is in fact the best a skier can expect, and all reported "better" scores are fakes and lies.

[Gray_Mac]

@Horton (hope it's ok to pick up on this old post and digress a bit..)

 

"I guess then 32 off is a slap in the face until you learn that next set of skills"

 

I'm finding that the jump from 28 to 32 off way bigger than from 22 to 28 off and I'm curious to know what you typically find to be this next set of skills that's required.

[Horton]

@Gray_Mac Without seeing you ski it is hard to address this. Bottom line is that as the rope gets shorter you have to make more speed into the wakes. For most skiers this means learning to be really stacked.

[VONMAN]

When coaching beginners it's usually three things. Bad stack, double pulling, looking at the ball. Step 1. Work on a strong stack and remember your work/load zone is between the wakes. As you finish your turn set you stack and progressively increase your pull behind the boat. Remember if you hit the boat off the turn Zero Off will react, but behind the boat it's much kinder. Step 2. If your student has a good stack out of the turn but still double pulls going over the wake, my fix is to keep your head up and look at the pylon in the boat. By doing so they hold the stack and cut through the wakes like butter. Step 3. Looking at the ball you ski at the ball but end up late and narrow, my fix is keep doing step 2. Keep looking at the pylon when you cross the second wake. Don't worry you will see the ball but this time you will be wide and early to control your turn in. This has been a method I've been teaching for many years. It's good for full line to 15,22,28,32,35 off.

[Horton]

@VONMAN I think "work zone behind the boat" is an antiquated idea. The skier must keep the ski on edge through the second wake but it is better to make speed early and maintain than it is to go hard at the first wake.

[Mastercrafter]

I was at Swiss last week and Clint told me to use the second wake at -15 for the edge change, so when I'm past the wakes, I'm on my turning edge. This wasn't quite opposite of what I've been told, but definitely an earlier transition. I've always been told to pull through both wakes and keep on edge through both wakes, then change edge immediately after. TBD what works best. Hopefully I'm not at -15 for a whole lot longer.

 

I have a big problem with building too much speed right out of the turn and by the time I get to the first wake, I'm going too fast and I launch over it, then often end up with an ariel edge change . Regardless of exactly where edge change happens, I think the key idea I need to put into practice is continuing to add line load into the wakes, so the maximum load is right behind the boat. I could be wrong.

[BraceMaker]

@Mastercrafter something to try. What happens when you cross the wakes at 15 off with out looking at them? Force yourself to look at the drivers head all the way to the wakes. What happens to the wakes.

[Mastercrafter]

@BraceMaker I already know the answer, they're basically a non-issue. I usually try to look well past the wakes, to the area in front of the buoy. Still, I slam on the gas and load up too quick. I give ZO a workout, lol.

 

Regardless, maybe I'll try looking at the pylon and try to break some bad habits.

[andjules]

@Mastercrafter I notice the way you articulate it is essentially "too fast too early" and it's probably partly true (too fast for you at your current skill level), but the way we think about it matters, so I'd change "'I'm going too fast and I launch over" the wakes to "I'm going too fast so I back off/flatten off and launch over the wakes".

The point is: you don't go airborne because you're going too fast (the best skiers go faster without going airborne). You go airborne because you flattened out… and you flattened out because you weren't comfortable with the speed (possibly with good reason — the most likely reason is that your stack isn't strong enough to hit the wakes, on edge, at high speed, with confidence). The good news, is you're still on the right track with the solution: you want to build your lean/speed more progressively, which will result in the ski being on a sharper edge when it hits the wake.

I realize @Horton may see this as antiquated, but I'm guessing his comment above is more applicable at short line lengths, and the concept is still pretty valid for where you're at.

[Mastercrafter]

@andjules hear you loud and clear and that is exactly my problem. Flattening out because I really don’t need much more speed, and maybe I’m still scared of the wakes. When I keep the handle down and pull through, it feels much better. I can do it, I just have a bad habit of not doing it

[BraceMaker]

@Mastercrafter that speed = early, when that early just keep skiing out towards the shore early of the ball. If you're running a 15' off line 10' early and 5' wide and fast that's fine. Just don't try to run it narrow and fast at the ball.

[Mastercrafter]

Gotcha, makes sense. That’s kind of secondary to my problem of cranking turns like I’m running 38 and loading up way too quick, getting pulled out of position, and so on. Starting out of the turn, I’m setting myself up for failure getting to the other side. Plenty to work on, at least I feel aware of it.