Wing or no wing?

[Web]

Waterski Mag published an article this month about the virtues of a wing-less fin. I am considering removing mIne. Currently I have it set at a low angle, roughly 5 degrees. I like the idea of less drag and more width. Wondering if anyone has experienced less stability without the wing, and/or promotes the idea? The article suggests 28 off or more as a minimum for benefiting with a wing, and I am not there yet.

[Chef23]

If you are running your wing at 5* you should take it off you aren't getting any real benefit.

[skialex]

Lower angle is not similar to skiing with no wing, wing creates drag only by being there.

I believe it is better to remove it.

[GOODESkier]

I have 2 experiences here:

 

I removed my wife's wing without her knowledge. Watched her ski 1 pass and said hey, lets go back to the dock. Right out of the get go, she was going to get nowhere with that set up. Just wasn't going to happen. For some reason the attitude of the ski had changed so much, she wouldn't run a pass like that.

 

I skied this winter once without a wing and found it "free-ing" but always a bit on the edge, kinda like driving a car on snow without decent tires, can be done, but you get that feeling. I only ran 28's and 32's so not sure what I would think at 35 or 38......

 

It is not gonna hurt to try it. Get someone in the boat to watch, so you get some feedback and can compare that feedback to what you feel.

[Than_Bogan]

I'm pretty firmly in the no-wing camp for longer line lengths EXCEPT that certain modern ski designs with a big rocker (e.g. Nano One) seem to require a pretty substantial wing angle in order to perform as designed.

 

I am not aware of any situation where I would recommend a 5 degree wing. If anything, that can end up pointing upward relative to the surface of the water and have the opposite of the intended effect of a wing.

 

Most folks at longer lines will learn more and improve faster by skiing without a wing. But, of course, not all.

[mikegile]

I believe it depends not only on the skier but the ski.

 

When I was skiing on my 2nd year Strada, some smart guys convinced me to try without the wing. With in a week I ran -38 for the first time. Kept the wing off for the next several skis and it worked on them as well.

 

I then got a red Strada(2013 I think). That thing was a rocket and I couldn't handle it without the wing.

 

Firm believer in no wing until into shortline for learning.

[Razorskier1]

Tried no wing last year for the first time. I ran straight through -38 that way, same as with it. However, I found it to be less reliable. I think this is why. As the line gets short we aren't always planted right over the same spot on the ski -- we might rock forward in the pre-turn, for example. Without a wing, the ski loses some of that front to back stability. I found that if I skied perfect, it was awesome -- very little effort, the ski never stalls, really fun! However, if I got on the tip of the ski too much without the wing, then the back end would lose traction as the entire ski rocks forward more, and that would end the pass. Simply put, the wing feels to me like an insurance policy against some common mistakes. I think the additional drag is worth it at short-lines for the added stability (unless you are in perfect position all the time!). I'd encourage anyone who hasn't tried it to do it for a set just to see how free your ski is -- it really is fun, and effortless.

[swc5150]

I pulled the wing off originally while skiing on a Nomad. I had a friend who runs deep 38's tell me to do so, so I went with it. The ski felt a little faster I guess? He told me all modern carbon skis have the ability to decelerate without it. Made sense to me? When I purchased my last ski, I removed the wing without trying it first. This thread has me thinking about putting it back on, to the original D3 factory spec, and give it a try.

[6balls]

Cool thing is easy to do, minimal tools, easily able to replicate prior position if you don't like it.

[GregHind]

On a good day I ski a few at 28 off.

 

I have been skiing poorly for a couple of years. Couldn't work out why. Horrible tip rise especially after a few passes. I tried moving my bindings forward which helped but couldn't work out what was wrong.

 

I recently put my wing back on. The drag holds the ski under me a lot more, tip rise solved.

 

Now I need to put everything back to stock on my '12 prophecy.

[Razorskier1]

My ski was a lot freer without the wing, but less stable. The fun part of skiing without a wing for me was (a) the ski accelerated with zero effort and then just kept on running, and (b) it never, ever stalled at the finish of a turn, making it harder for me to overload the ski. On balance I prefer the wing, but it was definitely fun to ski without it -- just effortless speed.

[Waternut]

My yellow 2012 Radar Strada worked like a champ without a wing at 34mph and up to 28off which is where I was 2 years ago at the end of the season. Over that winter I picked up a 2013 D3 Quest and while I was adjusting to a new ski and learning to ski again, I stayed at 32mph wingless on the Quest. Worked like a champ and I could even get into 35off at 32mph. At that point I figured it was time to move back up to 34mph....could barely even ski 22off at 34mph without a wing on the Quest and that was rare. It was just too fast and I couldn't slow it down. I tried for 3-4 sets and some extensive open water time and eventually gave up and put a wing on. As the summer went on, I eventually hit 35off at 34mph but it took a 7 degree wing.

 

Fast forward a year and I sold that Quest to a friend who weighs about the same as me. He took the wing off, kept the same binding placement and fin settings, and can get into 38off without a wing. Clearly ski and skier define wing need more than any line length or speed.

 

 

If only I could dream up a progressive wing that comes on hard before the ball and retracts out of the ball.....

[swc5150]

I think it was Kris LaPoint in the late 80's who was messing around with an experimental wing, that could be controlled by his rear foot. It could add angle before the ball, but ended up not being a viable solution...likely for a couple of reasons. KLP has never been afraid to experiment with gear.

[skialex]

I remember years ago that I removed my wife's wing and told her about it, she couldn't ski the way she was used to. She said that the ski was very unstable and told me to put it back or else.....

Lesson learned, never tell your wife that you have removed her wing!

Same for fin and boot adjustments

[bigtex2011]

I think it depends on the ski and skier. I skied on the A2 for 2 years and could scrap an occasional 38 on it. KLp wasnt running a wing on his A2 at times as well.

[water_skier1]

I’m on a 2016 ho vtr and was freeskiing for quite a few years. Now I started to learn the course, currently at 15 off at 30 mph, should I remove the wing? A „pro“ at my skiing site has recommended 5 degrees but I‘m not so sure about that

[LeonL]

What's the harm in trying?  Easy off, easy back on.  30/15 most likely it would advantageous.

[tjs1295]

I have a slightly off topic question regarding wings. Since I got back into skiing about 10 years ago, I have never used a wing based off of reading this forum. I free ski about 30-40 days a summer, not very good, and never in a course. I have an HO Carbon Omni. Last summer I decided to try the wing just for kicks. It was one of the most difficult starts I've ever had. I was probably a split second away from tearing my lats off the bone (at least it felt that way). I only miss about 1 start a summer, and it's because of being off balance from the start. It's never because it feels so unbelievably hard. I took the wing off, and never tried it again. I drag a leg when I get up. Was that just a fluke thing, or does the wing make starts more difficult? I thought they're supposed to  make starts easier? 

Edited August 14, 2023 by tjs1295

[UWSkier]

8 minutes ago, tjs1295 said:

I have a slightly off topic question regarding wings. Since I got back into skiing about 10 years ago, I have never used a wing based off of reading this forum. I free ski about 30-40 days a summer, not very good, and never in a course. I have an HO Carbon Omni. Last summer I decided to try the wing just for kicks. It was one of the most difficult starts I've ever had. I was probably a split second away from tearing my lats off the bone (at least it felt that way). I only miss about 1 start a summer, and it's because of being off balance from the start. It's never because it feels so unbelievably hard. I took the wing off, and never tried it again. I drag a leg when I get up. Was that just a fluke thing, or does the wing make starts more difficult? I thought they're supposed to  make starts easier? 

think this was a fluke mental thing.  A wing won't change the way your ski starts in the slightest bit.

[VONMAN]

Wings, why did it have to be wings? I got banned from a ski boat when I suggested to remove the wing on a newbie learning to slalom. Was told the sales guy recommended it stay on. Have never been invited back to ski.

 

[BraceMaker]

@VONMAN it persists.  That and the "put the binding all the way forwards so your ski doesn't bounce off the wake"

[tjs1295]

@UWSkier You're probably right, it was a fluke. I remember thinking that day that the wing would make starts easier because I read something on here about it. I'll leave it off for now. I don't get high enough on the boat anyway.

[water_skier1]

@VONMAN so you would recommend to ski without the wing? I would say I am a pretty good freeskier but I only had about 4 passes in the course so I dont have the timing right but I hope to progress pretty quickly 

[lpskier]

@water_skier1 The best thing to do is experiment with and without, and with at various  wing angles. To do the experiment, you need to borrow or invest in a decent set of wing angle gauges. 

[ral]

@water_skier1, what is a normal training set in the course for you (speed progression and number of buoys in each pass)?

[water_skier1]

@lpskier Than I will try that, thanks

@ral I have only ever had 4 passes in the course yet and execpt the first pass I cleared all buoys later, but I am still working on stack

[ral]

If you made all passes just after your second attempt, leave the ski as it is.   

[water_skier1]

@ral ok thanks I was just pulling too long and the fin creates drag so I thought I might be better off without

[VONMAN]

@water_skier1 I was talking about a newbie learning deep getup's and the basic's of slalom. But you never know till you try depending on your ability. It's free.

[HMan66]

Anyone have opinions on wing angle relative to skier weight and boat speed? 

[swbca]

On 4/30/2015 at 8:45 AM, swc5150 said:

I think it was Kris LaPoint in the late 80's who was messing around with an experimental wing, that could be controlled by his rear foot. It could add angle before the ball, but ended up not being a viable solution...likely for a couple of reasons. KLP has never been afraid to experiment with gear.

Somehow this old thread popped up . . . . The last time I read the rules, moving parts (control surfaces) were not permitted on the skis.

[lpskier]

They still aren’t. Maybe this KLP experiment was the genesis of the rule. 

[JackQ]

As @lpskier recommended just try with and without a wing.  The wing does more than just helping to slow the ski, it also help pull the tail around.

What works for one skier and ski, will not be the best for others.  Do what ever make you ski better and/or consistently, use it.  Heck, I accidentally put one side of my wing upside down and did not know it.  I ran my personal best and a National record before another skier noticed it.  It may be mental, I kept it that way even though when experimenting back and forth did not seem to make a significant difference 

Additionally if you have less than 6 degree, you may be hurting yourself, possibly literally.  In extreme situations where the tip is digging in and lifting the tail, a low angle wing can tend to lift the tail further with unfortunate results. Don’t ask me why I know this.