Hardest Pass Transition?

[DefectiveDave]

I saw an older post by @Bruce_Butterfield the other day (I can't currently find it) which paraphrased said something like:

 

...28 off is a difficult step up from 22 off, but the most difficult step is from 39 off to 41 off...

 

This got me thinking, what is the hardest pass transition? Granted I'm sure once you get down to 38 off, pretty much every pass after that is insanely more difficult than the one preceding it, but what about before that? Maybe not from an absolute difficulty perspective, but from the relative perspective of where you were skill-wise learning that pass. For example, maybe going from 22off to 28off required more fundamental improvements and time than going from 35off to 38off. It's very subjective how to judge this and some people obviously can go much further down the list than others, so please elaborate on your vote if you can!

[GOODESkier]

I think most guys get stuck at 38' OFF. Myself included. This is where most end the game in frustration. Just another challenge for me! Just wonder if my first 38 off in a tournament will be on my wife's 66" XT or the new 66.5" Flex Tail.........

[Horton]

The hardest one is the one you are stuck at now but I am pretty sure 39 is impossible

[ToddL]

@Horton nailed it. I fear that this survey results would be the same if the question was, what is your current hardest pass to ski.

[DefectiveDave]

@ToddL,

 

Maybe this is only true at the longer line lengths, but I'm feeling like the transition from 22-off to 28-off (haven't run it yet though so I could be mistaken) will be easier than the transition from 34-mph to 36mph. I don't know why that is, but it's like 36-mph was a barrier and once it clicked 22-off and 28-off seemed very accessible. In fact, 22-off seemed easier and more forgiving than 15-off. It just took some time to get accustomed to the line length. Of course, in my case the transition from 15-off to 22-off drastically reduces the size of the rooster tail (92' Nautique).

[david_ski]

28off did take quite a bit of time to accomplish. However getting to 32off felt just like a short 28. The feeling and visuals seemed pretty close to the same. 35off is where everything changes. The pull in at the gate is different. The turn at the ball happens much closer to the ball. One only has to get the ski around the ball rather than your whole body. The visuals all change dramatically at 35off.

[ozski]

A lot of people run -35 but the leap to -38 seems to sort the men from the boys. The planets have to start lining up pretty well to take ownership of the purple. Water time has to go up, equipment setup becomes much more important, conditioning, correct technique and even driving needs to be that much better.

[ALPJr]

I've made -32@34mph in practice about 5 times in the last 15 years. I think mostly due to limited water time - skiing once or twice a week, averaging about 25 sets a season. It takes me about 10 sets or 4 to 5 weeks to feel in ski shape. My tourney best is 2 @ 32 back in '96. So I've been here for a while, and now at 55 years old I am very happy to ski a clean set of 4 to 6 passes from my starter -15/32mph through my max -32/34mph. I think I would need to ski 3 to 4 days a week to progress, and that is not possible with my busy schedule.

[JackQ]

Everyone is different, running 15 after 36 long line was easy, 22 came almost immediately, but 28 required a pre-turn to slow down and I could not just pull harder and longer. 32 is just like 28 but with less margin for error. 35 is a major step up and requires one to learn how to gain angle at the buoy and maintain it, to be 38 skis pretty much the same with much less margin for error and the challenge of not trying to get wide of the buoys as you have done on all your other passes.

 

Each pass I learned was harder than the next but the difficulty seems to go up exponentially from 35 on. I have always been able to "mule" my way at least midway through the next pass when thing go right. When running 35 was a challenge, I could still manage to pull and scrap my way through 2-4 buoys at 38. But 39! not so much, if I don't do everything right I cant get past 2. So I think 38-39 is the largest jump, though 39-41 is most likely larger but I don't think I will ever be able to comment on that.

[AdamCord]

I made this a while ago to try and wrap my head around what makes each pass harder. It's not super clear but the arcs are different line lengths. I didn't put all line lengths on because it gets too messy, but this shows long line, 22off, 32off, 38off, and 41off. The value over on the right is how far you must move down the lake from the centerline to get around the buoy for that line length. This assumes there is some reach to help you.

 

So basically at long line your speed down the lake doesn't have to change much, but as the rope gets shorter it must change a LOT. At 41off you have to get your ski around the buoy and get even with the boat, wait for the boat to get 11m (~33ft) ahead of you, then you have to move 11m further than the boat in order to reach the next buoy. It's kind of insane when you think about it. You're basically racing the boat down the lake to the next buoy, and as the rope gets shorter you give the boat a bigger head start and have to go further.

 

 

[Razorskier1]

@AdamCord this is really cool. Now to see if my brain can absorb it and put it to work at my shorter lines!

[Wish]

@AdamCord that is awesome. What a great visual to show skiers transitioning from one length to the next and what a difference the geometry makes. You can easily see how longer line allows an earlier load out of the ball and at shoreline you have to wait for that shallower angle before the load. I think thats the huge difference between 22 and 28 off.

[skidawg]

39-41, zero margin for error, can't run it late or early (34 mph), imo

[DefectiveDave]

@AdamCord,

 

That's a really cool graphic! I never thought of it in terms of how much further you must travel down the lake.

[AdamCord]

@scotchipman I don't think talking about distance traveled by the skier is really relevant. I can go ski a pass buoy to buoy or I can take my wing off and run it way early. The distance traveled will be different but the line length is the same.

 

You're absolutely right about the minimum and maximum speeds though. As the rope gets shorter your max speed must go up and your min speed must go down. You're also correct that you have to spend a lot of time out next to the boat where the pull from the boat is not helping you. This is why I'm a huge advocate of free skiing at super short rope lengths. In reality we're out there skiing and trying to keep rhythm with the boat, the buoys just happen to be out there too. Learn to ski aggressively and keep a tight line on your hardest pass or even the line length shorter than that while free skiing and you'll learn more in a week than you will spending an entire season falling at 2 ball in the course.

[John Brooks]

I like the graph of the various line lengths, it really captures nicely what you see sitting in the boat as the line gets shorter. Think of sitting in the boat, watching a skier at 22 off compared to 38 off. As the line gets shorter, you need to lean further off the seat to see the skier around the buoy on the driver side at 38 than 22. With the graph in mind, for me the question is what do I need to do on the water to ski the shorter rope lengths?

[DefectiveDave]

@AdamCord,

 

My interpretation of what you've said is that you actually need more speed behind the boat at the shorter line lengths because you're going to need it getting out to the buoy. You need to travel further up course in order to get the necessary width and you need more speed to make sure you get there in time for the buoy. However, you must also decelerate to a point that the turn is still viable without going too far down course and this requires even more speed at centerline to make sure you still make it to the buoy.

 

So you can follow a similar path at say 22-off and 39-off if you want to, but you must necessarily have greater accel/decel at 39-off due to the path constraints of the rope. My assumption would be that this is where ski setup stuff such as wing, etc. become increasingly important? How else would one get the necessary deceleration when outbound without a wing?

 

So my takeaway so far is:

 

1) Speed at centerline is even more important at the shorter line lengths, even though its harder to get due to the fact that you can not as efficiently get load from the boat (i.e. more time spent wide of the boat's path)

2) You must effectively bleed that speed to an acceptable level before reaching the buoy or be ready to handle a very harsh turn (probably a combination of both)

 

Is that getting in the ballpark?

[ToddL]

When I look at the survey results, I tend to think that there is a technique step up at each of these more popular transitions. ...that the skier has to master something new to punch through that next "hardest transition".

 

[ToddL]

For example... I've heard that 34-36 takes learning how to trust speed and properly slow down. I've heard that 22-28 takes really improved stack and earlier edge changes. For 32-35, it takes more efficient outbound handle control. etc.

 

What do you think the key technique elements are that come into play at these difficult transitions?

34mph-36mph

22-28

32-35

35-38

[DefectiveDave]

@ToddL,

 

I think that's a really good question and might even nail exactly what I was going for in this thread. Though I didn't know how to state it as well as you have.

[ricski39]

In my opinion once the rope and handle fall inside the buoy line, things start to get real.

[Edbrazil]

Jamie Beauchesne, the 3rd person to run 41 (After Jeff and Andy), continued to improve after his

first big win: Men1 SL at the 1995 Nationals. Got a couple at 39. Only one to run 38. Thinking

of @horton's comment about the 39 pass feeling "impossible", Jamie said something like that

to me around that time. But later, he went on to run it and even run 41, 8 years after 1995. But,

maybe you have to be a relative youngster to make such progress, and not age 45+.

[Texas6]

To your point @Edbrazil on youth and progress. A boys 2 kid from my neighborhood ran 28 off for the first time ever in a tourney here a week ago Saturday. Fast forward one week and he scored one at 35. Amazing to say the least, and some lengths are just harder for some than others. Youth and the weight of a youth, do seem to have advantages. Not taking anything away from the youngster by any stretch, cool story

[RichardDoane]

they are all hard, if it was easy, it would be surfing

[RazorRoss3]

I had a hard time choosing between -22&-28 and 34mph&36mph. 36mph requires learning how to manage speed because the ski is higher in the water and doesn't bleed excess speed the same way 34 does. 28 is the first line length where you truly start to feel "swing" or the feeling of climbing up the boat as you approach the buoy and it starts to require a conscious effort to maintain outbound after the wakes otherwise you get pulled straight to the buoy.

 

@Texas6, it does seem that the very young ski very well. It may have to do with slower speeds (at least than us 36ers) and light weight. The weight thing comes down to the fact that they do not have the strength to ski wrong ie load the line, or be in bad body position so they can only succeed through technical excellence. Proper coaching at that age is a huge thing. I didn't get started early enough to benefit from that and have always been strong enough to ski stupid rather than well. Mostly ski well now.

[Texas6]

@RazorRoss3 - well said, I agree completely

[Chef23]

For me right now it is running 35 off and that is what I selected but I see a lot of better skiers than me that run 35 off regularly that struggle to get through 38 consistently. My guess is that 39 is impossible so I won't even consider that.

[jhughes]

This shot I took of Nate I believe at 39 in Milwaukee last year says it all as far as getting up on the boat. I believe the 41 pass was north and this shot is going south so I'm going to say 39.

 

 

And KC

 

 

[bishop8950]

You have to seriously step up your technique to run 38. Plenty of guys can brute force a 32. Even 35 can be run with some extra determination. But 38 requires some advanced technique and you really can't power just your way through it. This is why there is a pile of skiers stuck there.

 

@AdamCord thanks for that graphic. It looks just as I expected but never got around to proving. I use a verbal version of that to explain why you can backside buoys at longer lines and can't (or at least shouldn't try) at shorter lines, which is why some skiers get stuck at 35.

[Than_Bogan]

@AdamCord AWESOME diagram. I expect to steal that. It's only one part of the story, but boy does it make that part clear in a hurry.

 

As far as the transition points, I think @ToddL has hit the nail on the head. What's most interesting to me is now many people have similar experiences, which suggests there are really are new things to learn at certain points, as opposed to the difficulty simply continuing to increase. Here's my take on the biggest milestones that I have gotten past or up to:

 

36. Goddamn that's fast. The first time I got out of the water at 36, I immediately thought "I didn't ask for a hundred-and-thirty-six!" I think the challenge here is in executing fast enough. Ever watch kids trying to do some dance move faster and faster? At some point, it falls apart -- the very same thing they could do easily at a slower rhythm has suddenly become impossible. For a lot of us, that threshold lies somewhere between 34 and 36, so we have to train our minds and bodies to be able to handle the quickness.

 

28off. Welcome to The Swing. For the first time, the rope is too short to do substantial work after the centerline. And it's really hard to understand what is going wrong, because it seems like you just can't get out there so you have to pull longer, and the cycle of frustration has begun! Instead, it's time to load efficiently from the outside in, so that you have the speed necessary to swing out to a high enough amplitude.

 

35off. This rope is just too short. There's a big psychological adjustment here, as the path doesn't go outside the buoys anymore. (Maybe it technically hasn't for a few rope lengths, but this is where most people are confronted with the visual evidence and feel uncomfortable.) The big new skill needed here is staying connected to the handle during an uncomfortable long-yet-feeling-narrow approach into the buoy. Lose that connection and you'll stall badly, making it seem like you just can't get out to the buoys.

 

38off. Geometry lesson. This one is remarkably different from 35 off (and indeed was my pick for the largest gap, although 22off-28off almost got my vote). Now you not only have to work really hard and move fast, but you have to be doing the right thing at every stage and following the right path or the geometry just doesn't work out. I don't actually understand -38 yet, but the new skill appears to be managing outbound. From hitting the centerline to the point you let go of the handle, so much has to be Just Right.

 

39off. Clearly impossible.

[bishop8950]

This may or may not be true, I am still working through my first cup of coffee...

 

I think once you know how to run 38 you have learned the fundamentals of running 39, you just have to improve on all of it and be more disciplined. I transitioned 38 to 39 when I slowed from 36 to 34mph. I could run 38/34mph but had to learn how to tighten up my skiing and stay focused to run 39. Primarily it was all about timing of my movements and NOT loading up hard.

 

Like so many I was stuck mid 38 for years and finally learned how to get through that pass. Then feel like I am working on improving the same things to get deeper at 41.

 

1) don't try to backside the buoys. Learn to move in behind the boat before the rope is tight

2) some body position stuff to get side to side and enable a edge change that creates space

3) accept the visuals of feeling narrow

4) learn to leverage hard but not add load

5) tighten up the gate turn it so it works with the tiny amount of room you have at short lines

 

Pretty much this stuff got me through 38 and I am still working on all of it today.

[Than_Bogan]

@bishop8950 That is a pretty complete list right there! Anytime I do a passable job at all five of those simultaneously, I run -38. But that is rare. Usually I get about 2 of those 5 on any given run, which ain't enough!

[Booze]

@bishop8950 - "Learn to move in behind the boat before the rope is tight"...can you elaborate on that? Thanks

 

[Wish]

Out of @bishop8950 list, #3 is something that I have to force my brain to overcome. Feel like I want to perfect 32-35 by skiing them a lot and then shortn to 38. But 32-35 is a very different visual and that much time spent there, my brain will trigger things with the "narrow" 38 that need not be triggered....panicky things.

[bishop8950]

@wish, while you are at it, accept narrow and a bit further down course to finish your turns. You have to get inside the buoy line while the boat runs a bit further down the lake before you feel the load. Do it at 32 and 35 as well. You can run what feels like a perfect 32 because you were wide and hooked up tight right after the buoy but 38 will feel really heavy if you ski it the same way.

 

I skied a lot of 32/35s before I shortened to 38 this year. When I first went to 38 I tried to ski the same line/path and it felt heavy and hard. The driver hated it as well. Once I let it run a bit farther down course and inside the buoy line things felt a lot better.

[Wish]

Yeeeeup. Was gonna mention how far past the ball the turn happens. Unfortunately my brain and eyes think that's just not right. After a couple passes with 2 ball hook turns at 38 yesterday, I basically had to scream at myself to be patient outa 2 and ski further past the ball. That next pass was 5@38 and was on my way to 6 but I do not take hits in practice. It is different. I like your idea. Thanks

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I still maintain that if/when a skier gets through 39 and attempts 41, it's hitting a friggin wall unlike any other transition.

 

Around 10 years ago, I was running around 50% of my 39s in practice and probably 30% in tournaments. With that level of consistency, on fully half my attempts at 41, I couldn't get outside of 1 ball. I got around 2 ball a handful of times and sniffed the inside of #3 only once.

 

Take a look at the top tier of big dawgs - most run 39 regularly, but can only manage 1 or 2 at 41. Only once in a blue moon will someone not named Mapple or Rodgers turn 3.

 

I think Adam's drawing illustrates the physics very well. Each shorter line is exponentially more difficult, but 41 is where the Michael Jordan's get separated from the rest of the NBA.

[Razorskier1]

@Adamcord -- love your comment about shortline open water skiing. If you haven't tried it, do it sometime! I believe your first experience trying 38 or 39 open water will be - damn, where did all that slack line come from! Figuring out how to visualize course geometry and ski a short line in open water is really tough. I'm never sure if it helps me in the course, but I often get "stuck" skiing open water on our lake because of wind conditions, so I get some practice at it. The year I started spanking -35 with regularity I did a lot of open water -35, so maybe it does work!

[mikegile]

@bishop8950 Great insight.

 

You told @wish, while you are at it, accept narrow and a bit further down course to finish your turns. This is what I have been struggling with at -38 for a long time now.

 

Do you have any tips to help a mental midget like myself accomplish this?

 

If you are doing this at -32 and -35, do you find it more challenging to recover after a mistake?

 

Is there more to this, other than the usual handle control stuff, at the shorter lengths than making an earlier edge change?

 

 

 

 

[ozski]

I'm with @AdamCord and the others - Open water skiing your hardest pass is probably the best advice you can get. Open water short line is somewhat a learned skill, most people take a bit of time to adjust but once you get the hang of it you can learn a lot about your own skiing. Its very easy to shoot video and make adjustments without the distraction of the buoy count and its a lot of fun!!!

[Cayman2]

Skied well two out of 45 years. One year was when we skied open water for a month because our site was flooded. Second was the year my wife had me doing yoga. Am I doing either of those now? Of course not.

[bishop8950]

@Mike Gile when I have coached skiers to finish their turns a bit farther down course, it's just to keep them from cranking their turns at the buoy and loading up to hard to wide at line lengths like 35/38.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want to ski a wide and early line. But sometimes the most efficient and ultimately earliest and widest line is initially counter intuitive. At 32 off I can create a lot of space before the buoy and apex well before the buoy. I then can start my turn back to the wake before the buoy, "backside it" but still continue to carve until I am inside the buoy line before I feel the load from the boat. At 38, my apex is much closer to the buoy and as the buoy goes by I am still traveling down the lake. So I have to travel farther down the lake and let the boat run so I can carve inside the buoy line and get behind the boat before I feel the load.

 

For the physics approach, reference Adams sweet graphic. If you are on the 41 line there is no way you can or should instantly crank your ski to 90 degrees at the buoy. You would just turn into a ton of slack or get your arms ripped out of their sockets. You need to travel down course and need to get in behind the boat. Look at the 15 off path. When the skier is at the buoy there is only ~30 degrees (I am not getting out a protractor!) between the rope and the boat path. At 15 off you could load right at the ball and get away with it (but I bet the best coaches still advise against that). At 41 the rope vs boat path is 90 degrees. I feel like even when I am at 41 its my job to ski far enough down course and inside the buoy line that the rope gets to 30 degrees vs the boat path before I load. Its not easy!

 

So how do we simplify all this? I picture an "X marks the spot" that I am trying to get to at every pass where X = where I want the rope to tighten up. At 32 (my opener) X is close to the buoy and just inside the buoy line. At 35 its a touch farther down course and and a touch farther inside. At 38 it feels like +5 feet down course and even more inside. At 39 a bit more and so on. When I hit the X I am able to keep the rope tight, am able to control my acceleration into the first wake and ultimately get off the second wake with my best chance of creating space before we have to do it all over again.

 

Sorry, a lot of text, hope it makes sense?

[elr]

I've driven practice for a number of -32 to -38 skiers. From the drivers seat the biggest difference I felt between them and the skier I pulled that regularly gets into -41 is the intensity and placement of the work zone. The -41 skier loaded the boat with more intensity. Loading was later going to ball to 1st wake and lasted longer going from 2nd wake to ball. I think being able to load the boat on the turning edge is the difference. At least that's what I felt by the seat of my pants.

[Waternut]

I felt like advancing speed was considerably harder than going from 22-28off. Even 32off felt like it was within reach after only a few sets. I'm currently working on 35off....or at least I was at the end of last year. 35off is proving pretty difficult but even that pass feels like it's possible with a little better technique and determination. I don't think 38off would be even possible without a major mindset change.

[mikegile]

Thanks @bishop8950, very well articulated. I like the target idea if I can only execute.

 

Heading to Radar tomorrow to ski with the Wilson bros and give it a go.

[webbdawg99]

@bishop8950 Really good stuff here. I really like the "x marks the spot" concept. Thinking about hooking up a little further down course and a little further in has certainly helped me and @fizer this past week. My first set trying this concept I ran 38 2 out of 3 times and @fizer has run 38 in each of his last 4 sets. It's been VERY helpful for both of us. Thanks for the insight!

[bishop8950]

@Mike_Gile and @webbdawg99 glad its helping! One last thought having read this again. I think the most important thing about X marks the spot is that you are consciously picking a spot to move into rather than cranking your ski because the buoy went by. The latter is sort of like skiing with your eyes closed. How would you turn if the buoy wasn't there? I hope you would look up at the rope/boat while feeling your speed and direction and carve a nice turn back to wherever X is for that particular turn. We should do the same in the course.

 

Once you are disciplined enough to pick a spot at all, you can start to fine tune that spot depending on the line length, conditions, how you are skiing in that moment, etc. But you have to be calm and conscious enough to pick a spot first.

 

Maybe this should all be in another thread but feels at least a little relevant to hardest pass transion