38 off Wake Problem

[webbdawg99]

I'm a LFF forward skier. I am consistently getting caught in the trough off the second wake through the gates at 38 off. My ski goes down in the hole, then hits the lip, and bucks me up.....making it very hard to have a consistent one ball.

 

I watch the pros ski and they seem to glide right over the trough.

 

Has anyone else had this problem?

Any ideas on possible cause?

Possible solutions?

 

[Wish]

Video...?

[Horton]

Have you tried RFF?

 

Ok seriously need video

[webbdawg99]

So I just found this video of Andy. He appears to be hitting the lip of the trough at every wake crossing. This is at 39, but is representative of what I'm feeling. Maybe it's normal??? Doesn't feel right though!!

 

[MISkier]

I'm certainly not one to be giving advice to anyone into 38 off. But in thinking about the various issues I have at my level, I would be looking at handle position issues. Are your shoulders back enough or are they ever so slightly forward? What about your elbows? Are they pinned to the vest or is there some separation? Either of those two seem to me like they could be causing the front of the ski to pull down after the wake. Just guessing. And, there are many others here that can provide better insight than I.

[Horton]

I think there is always a some bump there.

[Wish]

I take it you did not feel that at 36mph?

[webbdawg99]

Here is what I'm referring to:

 

 

[webbdawg99]

I dont feel it at 28-35 (36 mph) But it gets really bad at 38 @Wish

[ozski]

How much depends on the boat? My old Mal had a bit of a ditch at -38 compared to a 196 or 200..

[webbdawg99]

I will say that the new ProStar seems to be flatter off the second wake than the 200. It just seems like I'm catching that lip excessively, making it hard to be in total control into 1. But for the life of me I can't seem to figure out a remedy. Maybe there's not one. I'll try and take some video tomorrow.

[6balls]

Have you looked at relative position of a pro skier to their ski right there vs. you? Is your ski still trapped under you plowing down into the dip and theirs is transitioning to kick out in front of them transitioning energy outbound rather than away? Where is the water breaking on your ski at that point compared to theirs?

[webbdawg99]

I just noticed something very interesting in the first freeze frame. Maybe this frame will make it more obvious.

 

 

[Wish]

I do not feel that at 38 but I feel there is probably a very small margin for body prosition, timing edge change and the like that could cause this. Andys first wake cross into one looked pretty bad in terms of what you describe (ya...I just criticized the goat). The rest of his pass it was tamed. And slow mo always makes things look way worse. That is less then a blink of an eye and likely not even noticed by him. I say it is somewhat normal but video of you Adam would go a long way to see what's going on. If you're getting bucked to where your edge change is in mid air... not so good.

[6balls]

Yah does seem to hit the trough there. Softer knees? Handle stays pinned despite ski disruption.

[webbdawg99]

@OB Do you have any video of me at 38 on your phone?

[Wish]

As line gets shorter He gets bucked more...so to speak.

 

[webbdawg99]

@Wish I agree that Andys gate seemed to be he worst of the pass as far as hitting the dip. The million dollar question is "why". Do you notice anything different?

[Wish]

He's on the tail. Just another split second positional thing that can happen so easily at that line length. Holy crap I just critiqued the goat again..

[Wish]

Are you on the tail.? Maybe forcing a lean to MAKE that 38 that's tipping you off balance on the back of the ski? Does not take much.

[Wish]

The best at getting weight evenly distributed to the point where it looks like to much on front foot.

 

 

[Wish]

Seeing it as normal ...34 mph

 

[webbdawg99]

@Wish. I was actually wondering if I was too much over the front, driving the ski into the trough....

[6balls]

@webbdawg99 that would have been my suspicion...but wasn't confident enough in that assertion to throw it out there.

[Wish]

I'd guess the opposite is true. Prob just enough on the tail.

[Wish]

Deweighting the front drops tail in trough while tip stays higher. Then the deweighted tip hits opposite side of trough and gets sent up pushing your knees up if bent or an abrupt hit if straight. That's my theory. Your stills almost show that. Weight on tip (or even) will keep ski level and the ski bridges the trough...watch TW or Nate vid.

 

When we try to hit it hard behind the boat... on the tail is more likely.

[webbdawg99]

@Horton Why do you think Andy hit the trough worse into 1 than any other ball? Wish's opinion is that he's on the tail more. What say you?

[Wish]

Pretty sure it's not to much tip pressure in Andys vid or the others but I think we are splitting tiny hairs. Thinking somewhat normal with some looking worse then others. If something is gonna make it worse it's tail pressure IMHO.

[webbdawg99]

You may be right @Wish. What you're saying makes sense. And since I was thinking it was too much tip pressure, that may also explain why I haven't been able to improve it. I'll certainly take video and be thinking about that tomorrow.

[Horton]

As @wish said you guys may be splitting hairs so let me spin you off down another rabbit hole.

 

Remember that whole discussion last winter about the difference between the load in your hands and the load in your feet? Poor @AdamCord almost had a nervous breakdown trying to get that concept through my think head.

 

I would propose that if there is too much load in your feet/legs when you get to the back of the trough your whole body is going to get a jolt. As you have less and less load in your legs they can absorb more and more of the bump. In English – the more relaxed your legs are the more they act like shock absorbers.

 

The theory about Andy is that when he is skiing well he has “relatively” little load in his legs by the centerline. His legs move but his upper body stays still. Make sense?

[Wish]

I think TW does what @Horton is saying better then anyone. Always been amazed how far his knees come up on the opposite side of the trough. Good rabbit hole thoughts..

[webbdawg99]

Yea, it may be splitting hairs. But, those subtle differences can make the difference between running 38 or not....at least for me. I'm not a good enough skier to have room for much error at 38.

[6balls]

No slouch, my friend. Anyone trying to figure out 38 off at 36 mph is mighty good. 2 mph slower and that pass often gives me fits. Hope you are able to work it out.

[webbdawg99]

@Horton can you post the link for the discussion regarding load in hands vs legs?

[MattP]

@webbdawg99 I can leave you my wakeye if you want to start getting video regularly.

[webbdawg99]

Thanks @MattP Unfortunately, I just got the iPhone 6 plus from my company and its way too big for the Wakeye! Plus, @fizer has one as well

[Horton]

@Wish I suspect that TW's knees come so far up because he is over loaded a fraction of a second before. I do not think it is actually a good thing

[webbdawg99]

Nate at 38. Glides right over the trough as if it doesn't exist. HOW?!?!?!

 

[MattP]

@webbdawg99 forgot he had one.

I am no expert or can ski the lines you do but to me it looks like watching Nate and Terry vs your skiing that they are advancing the ski behind the boat and over the second wake trough into the edge change. You might be skiing on your cutting edge into it then initiating your edge change only fractions of a second later than them after getting caught in the trough.

[DefectiveDave]

Looks to me like he still hits the trough, but his edge change appears slightly earlier and thus it doesn't hit him as hard. Or maybe it contributes to the edge change slightly rather than increasing his load.

[Wish]

@Horton I'd buy that. Either way there are skiers that just deal with it based on their style or skiers where it is muted because of their style. We just don't know which style Adam is. I suspect for him that the effort to "pull your guts out" at 38 is shifting weight to the skis tail and as you suggest, to much load on the legs. Nate seems unnaturally light in the legs and seemingly further forward that anyone I've seen ski. Odly enough, I've heard Nate is very much felt by the driver and I've been in the boat when Andy is skiing. I can only hope (not even as it will never happen) to be able to load the line as much as he does in that sweet spot.

[webbdawg99]

Is the only way to upload a video via youtube? I can't do it straight from my iPhone?

 

[MattP]

@webbdawg99 youtube or vimeo. There is not ability to upload directly to the forum.

[Horton]

YouTube

[Adam Caldwell]

I find that fin setup has a lot to do with the "kick" off the trough, provided body position is solid into the first wake. If the tip is riding to low, (or ski to deep in general) the ski will not be moving fast enough prior to center-line, and will get loaded down into the trough as you are forced to "pull" long (as you get dragged more) and miss the opportunity to unweight the ski early, and swing through through the second wake.

 

Anything to free up the tip of the ski, or get the ski out in front of the skier a bit more should help.

 

Less wing, fin shallower, fin shorter, moving front boot back are all things that might help the situation.

 

Another thing to make sure is that your not trying to take too much angle on the gate. This will only make matter worse as you start to get separated past the center-line.

[DW]

@webbdawg99: This works for me although RFF, I pull up slightly on my rear foot to reduce the bump at the exit of the trough. My theory is that keeps the ski at more of a constant angle of attack during the pulling zone. It goes along with the post on weighting/unweighting front v rear foot.

[AdamCord]

@webbdawg99 what @adamhcaldwell said. As @Horton mentioned this is absolutely a speed vs. load issue. I struggled with what you are talking about for years. Same deal, didn't notice it at 35, then it was a huge issue at 38. At 38 the speed swing is so great (slower at the ball, faster behind the boat) that it becomes really important to carry more speed into the line after the turn (or in this case turn into the gate) and then generate as much speed as possible before the first wake. If you are slow you are getting dragged down the lake and that slight trough that you barely felt at 35 now feels like a massive pothole. As Caldwell mentioned if you drop into the gate without enough speed but you get a lot of angle, you are going to be in a position to get loaded like crazy but your speed is too slow.

 

It also varies for me depending on the ski and ski setup. With a really fast setup I don't notice it, with a slow setup it comes back. People can run slow setups and learn to deal with it though, like what Terry does. Get your hips, get forward, close off and soften your knees. Or do what Nate does and run a big ski with a fast fin setup and it's not an issue.

[Horton]

Ladies and gentlemen I highly recommend that you listen to the Cord and Caldwell

[webbdawg99]

This makes a lot of sense. I've been trying to do a progressive roll in at 38. However, I'm probably not rolling in with enough speed and am generating that speed too late....resulting in excess load. Something else to think about in tonight's set.....

[AdamCord]

@webbdawg99 read Caldwell's comments on the gate here. http://ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/190089