Double Boot to fix back heel lift

[Karlbach]

Recently picked up waterskiing about 2 months ago and am quite serious about improving, skiing 1-2 a week.

At the moment I am using a ski which does not belong to me and have started thinking about investing in one. My main concern at this point is the rear foot. I have noticed that when I ski with a RTP, my back foot is never flat on the ski and that I tend to lift my heel quite a lot. According to the instructor, it should be flat on the ski but I haven't been able to fix that. Which brings me to my questions, first, should there be no heel lift, and second would a rear foot boot help with keeping my foot down?

[Ralph Lee]

Watch video of Nate Smith, his heel lifts at certain points throughout the course.

[6balls]

A rear boot would force your heel to be down. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion. I use a rear toe loop for two reasons: easier out of the hole for my crappy back, and I left my heel in the pre-turn every time. I'd be less concerned about binding choice as a beginner and more concerned about technique...search and read all that you can on this forum about "stack".

[Karlbach]

@6balls thanks a lot. I'm looking into it. I figured I'd try skiing with a rear boot just to see if it makes a difference to my stance then go from there

[6balls]

No harm in seeing what you like best.

[SkiJay]

@Karlbach

 

Andy Mapple's rear foot comes off the ski during the edge change and during the pre-turn. Locking down your rear heal has negatives for both amateurs and advanced skiers. It tends to trap amateurs' in the back seat, restricting their ability to get up over the front foot while turning. And for adavanced skiers, it increases the pitch-sensitivity of the ski by driving tip into the water every time the skier stands taller or moves forward in off-side maneuvers. RTPs promote proper balance on the ski and they damp out a lot of this skill-testing pitch-sensitivity. These are just some of the reasons every pro with kids I can think of at the moment has them skiing with RTPs.

 

Unless you are constantly falling out the front, I'd question your coach's advice on this one because your ski is designed to work best when your front foot is carrying the majority of the load. I ski in double boots btw. But if I was starting over, it would be with an RTP.

[Karlbach]

@SkiJay thanks! very helpful! in my case my rear foot is almost never flat, not even when I'm stacked and getting ready to start.

[SkiJay]

@Karlbach Not even while cutting?

[Karlbach]

@SkiJay Let me get back to you on that, I'm not too sure. Going skiing on Thursday and I'll pay attention, but I do believe it must be flat when cutting

[SkiJay]

@Karlbach As skiing problems go, it seems your rear heal problem is a good problem that will likely work itself out as the loads increase. There are likely more important issues to focus your attention on at this stage. Enjoy!

[Than_Bogan]

In my opinion, a rear lift is not a problem unto itself. It COULD be a symptom of a different problem, and probably is if it's happening under max load directly behind the boat, but I think focusing on the heel itself is unlikely to be productive. Focus on fundamentals of leverage position and soon you'll be driving so much force through that foot that you couldn't lift your heel up if you tried...

 

The same applies at other points: Not a problem unto itself, and for certain skiers it can even be a feature in the preturn. (Not for me mind you.)

[OldboyII]

My reason to try two boots was that my rear foot was moving back and forward in RTP during pass.

RTP fits to my size M, next size is too big...

 

This is still an issue for me which I do not know how to solve.

 

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@OldboyII Long ago, I had some occasional scenarios where my rear foot would come out of an RTP while I was coming off the second wake and therefore near to max speed. With the front boot options available at the time, I concluded that was super-dangerous, and I forced myself to a double-boot. It took basically an entire season to get comfortable.

 

For whatever reason, the vast majority of RTP users never encounter that. Maybe it's my narrow foot or maybe I'm just more all over the ski than most.

 

Interestingly, with the advent of the OB4 system, I would potentially be OK with the risk, because in those rare situations where my back foot came out, I'd know the front could release in rotation rather than shred my knee. But by now I've been dual boot for 20 years, so I'm quite comfortable.

[eleeski]

Lisa transitioned from double rubber boots to a rear toe kicker. It was difficult but she skied way better than the double Radars (loves the Radar Lyric front). The old rubber boot was a maintenance nightmare.

 

She ended up with the toe kicker plus a heel strap made from an old bicycle inner tube. This allows her heel to lift and move as needed (good for her skiing). The heel strap keeps her foot placed properly, consistently and comfortably.

 

Downside is that she has to get up with both feet in - harder on the body. On a trick ski, I can get the strap on while skiing but I can't do it on a slalom.

 

Eric

[OldboyII]

Share same problem with @Karlbach - heel lift.

Heel lift itself not a big issue - it is possible to concentrate on it and control.

But.

Mechanically thinking: each time of lift heel, foot goes a little back.

So during same pass rear foot is not on the same place - it moves about 1/2 inch back and forth, causing inconsistency in stance.

Not a big issue for expert but for us, beginners it is a kind of obstacle for progress.

If on the platform I kick foot in RTP hard so rubber squeeze the foot and it cannot go back I feel much better.

But this is almost equal to double boot ))

 

 

 

 

[2tracmind]

I am a RTP skier. A little movement is required of the rear foot in order to get up on the ski in the preturn and not have the hips dragging behind. Most intermediate skiers on a double boot have too much weight on the rear foot resulting in poor body position.

The rtp must fit, if it is too tight to get your foot all the way in try trimming or sanding the foot bed to allow your foot to fit all the way in. If only your toes are fitting in the rtp, I am sure if would feel insecure !!

[wtrskior]

I moved to a rear boot many years ago also because I found my foot coming out of the RTP on wake crossings. Could have been due to a poorly fitted RTP but there is no doubt a rear boot is more secure.

 

My rear heal does lift a bit in my Vapor boots.

[eleeski]

Another RTP solution is to use a heel cup. This allows you to get up one footed and keep your heel from slipping back. Maherajah made the one I used years ago. Don't know where to buy one now but I bet Wileys can set you up. I know I could make something.

 

I don't know what would feel better - heel cup or heel strap. Maybe @OldboyII or @Karlbach can try both and report back for us. Of course, my recommendation would be to use what works best for you. You do need to try different stuff to find out.

 

Eric

[OldboyII]

Yes @2tracmind , correct.

My first try with rear HO Animal was a failure, it holds foot too hard, as a hunters trap - ended with too much weight on the tail thus plawing water.

 

I just moved HO Basis front boot to rear plate, so I will try to use it as a rear boot and will leave upper laces untied, this probably will allow some heel freedom.

Will also shift little toe toward edge as @Than_Bogan recomends.

 

Second thing, will think how to mount adjustable heel cup from recreational bi-ski bindings on RTP.

 

The only problem - it is 12C (53.5F) outside and dont feel like dip into the water (

 

 

[A_B]

I run my rear boot looser so it allows my heel to move up and down. I just don't like side to side in a rtp. Back in the '70's I added a heel piece from an adjustable EP binding behind my rtp so I didn't move side to side. Up and down can be good.

[OldboyII]

Will try this weekend.

 

[OldboyII]

Tested the above construction.

I am not an expert to say is it good or not.

Just my personal view:

 

The contact between heel and cup attached to RTP work as "reference point", it gives immediate understanding where the heel is and how it travels during different phases of pass.

Im not sure if I will use this long time or will move to rear boot but it certainly helps to make a decision.

It may work as RPT because allows a decent freedom of heel movements.

It may work as simulation of rear boot giving some ideas to guys thinking to switch to 2boots.

It also prevent losing RTP.

 

Shortly say:

If anyone will launch kickstarter project of adjustable heel cup for std RTP - I will not mind to get prototype for tests )))

 

[eleeski]

Kickstarter for a toe kicker? @OldboyII gets pun points!

 

Any pictures of your setup?

 

Eric

[OldboyII]

@eleeski what do you mean "my setup"? (probably my poor english...)

It is Wiley rtp (extra rubber strip removed) which came from Goode with my new nano XT )

I took heel cup of front binding from Connely parabolic ski and attached it to plate of rtp. Ski is intact.

20 minutes work.

And that is ))

The disadvantage is - it is not adjustable because fitted to exact length of my foot.