Wednesday night 'beer' league

[wskierman8]

Hey ski community, recently I have been thinking about different ways to expand our sport and make it more fun. I've kicked around a couple of different ideas and after talking with several competitors throughout the summer this is the one that seems to have garnered the most interest. As I write this I intend it to be directed towards slalom although it could of course be expanded to trick and jump. (I'm hoping to eventually use this post and its responses as my unofficial market research to bring to usawaterski)

 

What I want to do is get a nationwide site vs site league going. Now that our sport has the technology for live scoring and up to date rankings lists I think this idea could really take off.

 

The idea would be to run the league similar to collegiate tournaments. That is to say the people that ski at your site become your teammates against the other sites that compete.

 

For those of you who are unfamiliar with collegiate skiing; the way it works is: say we end up with 100 skiers across the nation, the top skier of the night would end up with 1000 pts for his team, the second place skier 990 pts, third 980.... all the way down to 100 pts for the low score of the evening. The winning site would be the one with the highest cumulative pts for their 10 respective skiers.

 

The way it would work is that it would be a week night event (maybe wed or thurs) 5 weeks over the summer. Each site signs up at the beginning of the year for a set fee; lets call it $1000 and that would cover your club registration as well as the 5 class C tournament sanctions.

 

For each of the 5 tournaments, each site can have up to 10 skiers compete for the site vs site competition (the site can truly run the tournament as they please ie. have as many skiers as they want; but only their top scores from the first round will count towards the competition)

 

What I think this type of competition would accomplish is two-fold. First off, it will take care of one of the two major problems with our sport... time. By only utilizing 1 round from 10 competitors, these tournaments can easily be run in two hours or less, certainly more manageable than the typical all day affair. Second, I think this type of tournament will provide much more fun for its competitors. As an alumni of collegiate skiing, I can truly say those tournaments were the most fun I've ever had at a waterski event and it's not close.

 

Sorry for the long post but I certainly look forward to and appreciate any and all feedback.

[wskierman8]

Ok, I have spoken to 3 different sites that tell me they could easily pull this event off. If you think you and your site could be interested leave a comment. I think if we could get upwards of 10 sites involved we could have something really fun to work with.

[sunvalleylaw]

Sounds like a worthy effort. If there were aspects of this that were similar to "City League" alpine ski racing, and/or "Nastar", where one could pay for a couple runs to measure up against a national ranking system, that would be cool too.

[wskierman8]

Definitely would set up a national ranking system for both the site vs site competition as well as the individual competitors rankings.

[GK]

I'm working on a similar idea for Ohio in 2016, however a good bit different. Email me if you want to discuss. gk at rounding6.com

[skidawg]

handicapped or straight up scoring?

 

[Razorskier1]

@OB1 -- come on brutha -- you gotta let the driver weave!

[Edbrazil]

 

Having worked at a snow ski area over the Winter for some 15 years, where we had Nastar,

school races, and "Beer League", I think that this idea might be a worthwhile one to try for

water skiing. Our Beer Leagues were very successful until incompetent and crooked Upper

Management messed things up. I haven't worked there since Season 2011. The Leagues have

been going downhill (so to speak) since then. Got more specific info. but enough for now.

[wskierman8]

@skidawg at this point I'm thinking straight up scoring for the first year just to try and get it off the ground then the second year get more in depth with handicapping, junior division, women's division etc. But since this is all speculation at this point, I'm open to opinions.

 

@OB1 I'm hoping that if we can make them all sanctioned tournaments our current method of the honor system will be enough to suffice. To further that, in order for a site to qualify, they would have to have hosted an awsa tournament within the last two years. Making it more likely that the courses are legit.

[gginco]

Our site could be interested. Especially if, somehow, the winning site gets at least their $1000 back.

[wskierman8]

@gginco I would love to put a prize on it some how. The only two questions that come up with that are 1. would it affect the integrity? and 2. If we get awsa involved can we get them to give us a break on the sanctioning fees?

 

If we don't end up getting awsa involved then cash prizes will definitely be in play.

[nleuth]

@wskierman8 Northern New York is already starting its training regiment!

[John Brooks]

This sounds like it could be fun. Would not want to do it with all the hassle of a Class C, where we need a bunch of judges, ect.. Maybe something where there is a judge in the boat and that's it and each person submits their own score, more in line to what golfers do through the PGA.

[wskierman8]

@John Brooks if we can get enough participation I am all for that.

[OldSkoolSkier]

What about the beer? No one has mentioned anything about the beer except for in the title :/

[Edbrazil]

Continuing about the snow ski Beer Leagues. Each league had a beer company sponsor.

Apres ski had deals on draft beer, and plenty of giveaway swag by the beer company representative.

Also had freebie munchies, that varied. When it was pizza night, it looked like the starving

3rd world hordes were descending on the food station.

One year, the ski area's contracted food vendor was replaced. Gone were the freebie munchies,

and gone were the beer sponsors, as the new vendor wanted some sort of kickback. Crooks

that helped kill a good thing. The Beer Leagues now have fewer teams, and one day's league

is gone, as participation declined. The draft beer "deal" now a ripoff with the special price

equal to what it takes to buy a 6-pack.

Just a bit of a warning of what can happen when crooked and incompetent Marketing people

take control. Keep anything you develop under control of people who love skiing. And, of course,

be sure that there is a good apres ski function with cheap beer.

[wskierman8]

Haha I'm working on the beer aspect still. It makes it tough having the competitors so spread out but I'm sure with enough participation, we can get something done. I mean, beer is the driving force behind this thing.

[Texas6]

Might have to force a few clubs to drink up prior to skiing just to handicap them appropriately. We will have to imbibe afterwards if we want any chance at all

[Chef23]

I think there needs to be some sort of handicap to make it interesting to all participants. I know at our site say we have 5 serious adult course skiers. One struggles to make 34/15, two can run into 35 off and two can run into 38 off with the occasional foray to 39. If you stack us up against a site in FL or TX we probably get our doors blown off.

 

I do like the idea of running it with a boat judge and driver. It would be awesome if there was a way to have it count as a tournament round but I understand that does get challenging although I am sure there are sites out there that run weeknight tournaments without 3 judges (although I am sure they but them on the paperwork).

[skihard]

FWIW - I like the handicap idea. I have actually created an Excel spread sheet that can track and maintain someone's current handicap at speed and line length. It rotates like golf somewhat over you last pass and previous 9 passes so you're handicapped based on your last 10 passes at any given line length and speed. My hope was to sell a ski league to the Houston and surrounding areas using this format but I think it might actually work for something like this in a big picture too.

As with golf the real handicap is based on honesty. There are sandbaggers in every sport that ruin it for the rest. In the end if you cheat you're really only cheating yourself too.

My sheet isn't huge and anyone with better Excel knowledge then myself could probably turn it into something even better! :)

Basically it will allow say someone with a handicap/average of say 4 @ 35 off - 36 mph against someone who has an average of 4 @ 15 off - 28 mph because as much as you're skiing against each other you are each also skiing against your handicap.

I could be so far out in left field that I'm in outer space but I actually think it could work without all the regulations and such that govern regular tournaments. Also it would bring all teams in on the same level unlike the comparison or issues @Chef23 raised when looking at the members of his site vs other sites in FL, LA, or TX for that matter.

[nleuth]

I think with the original intention a handicap might not be needed. My understanding is that the contest would fluctuate at different tournaments. For example, the first tournament in the season would be big score, the next tournament might be your performance based on you average. That way, it helps to have a diverse team. Have a couple guys with a high buoy count, and also have a couple kids because they improve so fast!

I think this is a great twist for our sport and something that has a great deal of potential. It can reach out to some site that aren't competive and get them involved as well. As for the class C part, you could sanction it if your club would like, but I don't necessarily think it would have to be sanctioned for the online league. Just get a website rolling and each team pays a small team fee to cover the cost of that and some prizes and this will be a really cool concept!

[brody]

Just wondering how boat speed would play into this, I'm in m4 and ski at 34 vs a young guy who skies at 36 or a young kid who skiis at slower speeds

[wskierman8]

Now that we have a running dialogue going and there appears to be plenty of interest to move forward. Here's a continuation on what I was thinking. The point system will work as follows say we end up with 100 skiers across the nation, the top skier of the night would end up with 1000 pts for his team, the second place skier 990 pts, third 980.... all the way down to 10 pts (i typed 100 in the first post that's incorrect) for the low score of the evening. The winning site would be the one with the highest cumulative pts for their 10 respective skiers.

 

My current plan is to run 5 tournaments throughout the summer and my best idea about how to go forward would be to run:

 

The first 2 tournaments as total buoy count. Not taking any speed age or sex into account. I realize that there are going to be some 'ringer' sites that have a bunch of guys who run into 39/41.

 

Then I would switch the rules so that tournaments 3 & 4 are handicapped based on the skiers average from the first two. The point system will be the same however the top score will go to the skier who skied the most buoys above his average and the low score to the guy who falls furthest from his average. So make sure you run the opener :smile: This is where as @nleuth said having a diverse team will be extremely helpful as kids and beginners are going to be the ringers here.

 

And finally for the 5th and final tournament of the summer my best idea so far is to make it a composite of both high score as well as handicapped score. ie there will be double the points available and this way everyone on the team will have the opportunity to really contribute. Your average is going to be your highest two scores from the year so anyone competing in the final week will have to of skied at least two of the weeks prior.

 

Obviously as @skihard said there is opportunity for sandbagging but hopefully we can keep that to a minimum. If there's anything really suspect we can always go check the usawaterski rankings and get to the bottom of it.

 

Thoughts?

[wskierman8]

Looking for more opinions... First off, I talked to a couple of guys from various sites today, and they recommended teams of 5 rather than 10. Mainly because they don't have 10 skiers in their club or 10 skiers within reasonable driving distance for a week night event.

 

Also, since we are going to leave it up to the site to decide whether or not they're going to sanction the events it only makes sense to drop the cost for the site to enter. I was thinking either $250 or $500 per site for the 5 tournaments. Just remember the more that gets put in the pot, the better the prizes will be :wink:

[skidawg]

$250- no sanctioning, honor system (could vid from boat w smart phone) that would require 1 person to review all vids.

[nleuth]

@skidawg I like the video idea. You post each pass on the website and it could even be a conversation pience, a social media page would be neat to go along with it as well.

 

I'm ok with a maximum of 10 skiers, but you have the option to participate with less. That way you can make the team more diverse and it will reward a team that finds more skiers, thus go growing the sport. I know we have 4 guys up there that compete in tournaments up here, so we would have to recruit some non-tournmanet skiers and maybe even some skiers that aren't as familiar with the slalom course.

[wskierman8]

@skidawg I've been thinking about the video thing. I thought it would be great if we posted all the vids on youtube or a cloud server of some sort and made them public that way everyone has the opportunity to go through and review them. Make it a peer-based review system. The only problem with that is it will require more work from each team captain to make sure the videos get uploaded. (It'd be awesome if someone designed an app that uploaded the videos directly after each pass... maybe we'll have something in place for year 2)

[wskierman8]

@nleuth How about each site can ski 10, and we'll use the top 5 scores of the evening towards the teams cumulative score. Similar to collegiate where you ski 5 and use 4. That way each team will get the chance to have a diverse roster when the handicapped scoring comes along, as well as backup scores to use for the inevitable missed opener. Also by only using 5 scores, we'll give some of the smaller clubs in rural areas a chance to compete.

[jrs]

I'm picking my Okeeheelee Team as I write this!

[smilinjim]

@jrs this should be fun if we can pull it off. We should do a trial run this fall to hammer out legistics. (before our water freezes over)

[wskierman8]

@smilinjim pick a date!

 

Also the website is currently under construction.

[gt2003]

@wskierman8 , I love this whole concept. However, I think you would be skewing it in favor of the larger teams/clubs by allowing 10 to ski and choose the top 5 scores. If I was a member of a smaller club then this would be a point of contention for me. I say choose 5 and go with it, or, even better, have 2 separate teams from the club! Just my 2 cents

[Mateo_Vargas]

If handicapped and not class C then the Berkeley Water Ski Club is in. We just finished our 9th season doing a Wed night ski league from June to the end of August. This year had 40 different skiers attend and averaged 15 a night so we have enough for a team.

[wskierman8]

@gt2003 I agree that the larger clubs will have an advantage overall but at the end of the day our goal with this will be to grow the sport and have some fun. So this will simply give the smaller clubs the incentive to go out and recruit some newbies who in all likelihood will end up becoming the ringers when it comes to the handicap scoring.

 

@"Mateo Vargas" you're in luck! we're not going to bother with the class C sanctioning instead we're going to use only a boat judge for our scoring. (if a club wants to sanction the event they are more than welcome to do so.) Just have to make sure you establish who your 10 skiers are going to be. The plan scoring wise is to have 2 tournaments based on total buoy count to establish averages, 2 tournaments with handicap scoring, and the final "championship" week to be a mixture of both.

[drewski32]

I definitely would not like it if the whole thing was handicapped. Personally I'm really consistent in tournaments and I have to pb to beat my average.

[wskierman8]

@drewski32 It's going to be a mixture. Weeks 1&2 will be straight buoy count. Weeks 3&4 are going to be handicapped based on the averages established. Then the 5th and final week will be a mixture of both. i.e. 2 separate score books that will be combined to crown a champion.

 

I simulated a 'mock' tournament yesterday while working on the score sheet. I used the usawaterski averages and latest scores from some of the people who I know are going to join and it's going to be some tough competition. Already there are 4 skiers with an average buoy count of 108 or better. So the handicap is going to be a great way to make sure everyone is on an equal playing field.

 

Besides you'd be surprised how well a handicap score of 0 will actually play, in the mock tournament the handicap score of 0 actually took second place out of the twelve participants everyone else scored a negative buoy count.

[wskierman8]

Website is up. Check it out!

 

wednesdaywaterski.com/

[ALPJr]

Looks great and like it will be fun to participate.

[wskierman8]

Hey all,

 

Ski season is nearly upon us! As promised, 2016 will be the inaugural season for the Wednesday Waterski League. There will be 5 tournaments throughout the summer tentatively scheduled:

 

Tournament 1: 6/29 Top Score

Tournament 2: 7/13 Top Score

Tournament 3: 8/24 Handicap

Tournament 4: 8/31 Handicap

Tournament 5: 9/7 National Championship (Combined top score & handicap score)

 

For more details checkout the league website

http://wednesdaywaterski.com/

 

Sign-ups will begin April 1st and the captain of the first team to sign-up will receive a free pair of board shorts courtesy of Pelagic Gear

[Beastmode]

This sounds great! Im sure we can build a team

[wskierman8]

We've had some good inquiries come in through email and I figure they were some questions that a number of people are thinking:

 

The team fee is $250 for the year, and there will be prizes for individuals after each tournament as well as a grand prize (or maybe cash prize) for the team that wins the national championship.

 

Prizes will be specified prior to the first tournament

[ToddL]

Per the rules: "WEATHER - As titled "Wednesday Waterski League" it is expected that sites ski for scores on Wednsday. The league however understands that we cannot control the weather. Each team must monitor their own weather. If an accommodation due to inclement weather is desired the team captain must inform the league president to make arrangements to ski on a different night. The purpose of this is to prevent participants from choosing the best weather day each week. 10mph wind is not that bad get out there and swerve!"

 

Some skiers may have weekly conflicts on Wednesdays or may have lake access on designated days of the week, not including Wednesdays. As such, I'd like to propose that an individual skier on a team may designate an alternative, fixed day of the week as that skier's "Wednesday." By designating a fixed alternate day, the weather advantage factor will be controlled for.

[wskierman8]

Good point! We talked about that in the fall actually and something to that effect will be added to the rules before the season begins.

 

I'm going to try and have all the rules in place and finalized by Mid-May or so. Each captain will receive an email containing the rules document, score sheets, team bio etc.

[klindy]

AWSA has developed a league concept already. There's even a mobile app for it which is directly connected to the ranking list (i.e. - sanction a tournament, run it and post the scores and the league standings automatically update). There is quite a bit of flexibility built in including handicapping. It would be simple to set up this type of league.

 

You can dictate the sites, the dates, the team structure (individual, pair/couples, father/daughter, club, etc.), the number of scores that count (say a unlimited number on a team but top 5 scores count at each tournament), etc.

 

The mobile app can be found at www.usawaterski.org/rankings/mainmenu_m.asp The league functionality is currently off but I've seen the screens and the functionality.

 

I'd recommend that this may be a good "test case" to test the functionality.

[wskierman8]

That's good to know I will have to check it out sometime.

 

Our league is going to be set up a little differently however in that; while we encourage USAWS memberships, and tournament sanctioning, neither is a requirement for participation.

 

It's our hope that by lessening some of the limiting factors inherent with tournament skiing that we will be able to attract some new skiers to the competitive scene.

[klindy]

@wskierman8 if you have non members participate you can't get an AWSA sanction. Some sites will want that for the liability insurance coverage. Some skiers will want their scores to "count" on the AWSA ranking list.

 

I'd suggest a class F/C AWSA sanctioned tournament (you can use a guest membership for new comers). Even the class F scores will hit the list (max level 5). As a class F you can run it just about anyway you want.

[nleuth]

@klindy It is my understanding that if the team has the necessary resources to run an AWSA sanctioned tournament (new boat, officials, etc.) then they are welcome to do so. This ultimately puts the team in control of how to run their event - for example, how to obtain insurance coverage or gas money from participants or are these things even necessary? These are questions that the team is permitted to answer for themselves.

 

The goal here is to get groups of passionate water skiers together to hang out at the lake or river and network with others outside of their club. I think that this structure is a great new opportunity that will trigger a lot of interest in skiers who are not familiar with the competive waterskiing scene. This setup will allow them to get a taste of competitive skiing, if you will, while experiencing the benefits of skiing at the convinience of their home site. From here, they may become more willing to travel to other sanctioned events, and they will still continue to enjoy their time on the water, skiing with their good friends.

[wskierman8]

Don't forget. For those interested in joining the league, sign-ups begin tomorrow April 1st! http://wednesdaywaterski.com/

 

The first captain to sign-up his or her team will win a pair of board shorts courtesy of pelagic gear!

[ALPJr]

@wskierman8 I ski with 3 others who may be interested in signing up. We have access to a course on weekends. Weekdays/nights do not work for us due to our work schedules and limited access to the course. Would we be able to dedicate a weekend day for our score?

[wskierman8]

@ALPJr I think that is something we can work out. I will be in touch with details.