Too open to the boat

[ForrestGump]

So it's no secret I've not skied much this year thanks to cycling and injuring my neck. So I almost didn't come to the BOS Cash Prize tournament. But damn glad I did because I got a few sets with Will. He hit on something and said it in such a way that I instantly got it. I'd heard Trent tell me something similar, but I didn't get it then. So both told me I was too open to the boat. I think when Trent told me that last year I was thinking about coming into the first wake. Probably a byproduct of watching and misunderstanding WCS all those years ago. Will told me I was stacked, but in such a way that I was giving up the power to the boat and letting it take me over the ski off the second wake. So he told me to rotate my hips and shoulders back away from the boat(closing off a little) and to hide my away shoulder from the boat coming off the second wake and out. Instantly I ran one of the best passes I ever have. The passes slowed down, especially on my offside, and took me on a line so that I didn't feel like I needed to force the turn. The funny thing is I was thinking on those passes that I felt like I see Trent ski. The difference in what I did with my body was subtle. And to start with, it was only 28 off. But the difference in the ski path at 32 was noticeable. So my assumption is the end result of the proper body alignment is larger as the line gets shorter and shorter.

 

And then of course I was stupid and exploded in the tournament all week. LOL

[gregy]

Shane, I noticed the same thing watching videos of a lot of pros. I had told @toddl earlier this year that I was going to quite worrying about getting open into the wakes. Will has a good eye for picking things out and explaining so you execute. He told me to get back on the handle quicker which I did, afterwards he told me I was delaying my turn and drifting downcourse. By telling to get back on the handle quicker it got me to turn quicker.

[jimbrake]

@ShaneH - body position, stance behind/over/ahead of your feet, load, acceleration are all dynamic things in slalom. I don't think there is any one absolute in all of these aspects of slalom. I think you hit on something (or Will did for you) that was getting me, too - being open is a good way to move your COM forward through a turn, back to the handle, in the accel phase, but then you can't just hold that position past the centerline and expect it to be effective out to the ball and the next turn. I have been open to the boat and hanging onto my cutting edge in that position too far past the centerline for a long time and not really realizing it. Two great 34 mph skiers (Badal and Bishop) both told me the same thing during separate sets recently and it really opened my eyes to that mistake in my skiing. Being open to the boat can be a good thing, but only for a brief and everchanging, accelerating moment. Now trying to "hide the back shoulder" too soon out of a turn and in the acceleration phase can be a very bad thing. Thanks for your post.

[Horton]

Being open has been WAY over applied by most skiers since it became popular 20 years ago.

[jimbrake]

@horton - yeah, well, so was turn, rotate, pull hard, resist away with the back arm (at the wrong time). That's how I was taught. Worked OK until ZO.

[DefectiveDave]

This really hits on something I've been pondering lately as well, especially with respect to my gates. I've reached some conclusions based on the comments of @Wish and others. However, I'm not the greatest skier (practice PB of 1 at 32 off) and this is just my current understanding (which seems to evolve significantly over time).

 

It seems to me that being open to the boat should be more of an effect than an action, but it can be used to positive effects in certain situations. Opening to the boat has some benefits during the loading phase which appear to be:

 

- Allows COM to shift forward

- Lowers the tip of the ski

- Decreases "load"

 

However, opening to the boat has some drawbacks as well:

 

- Lessens your leverage (weakens your position)

- Reduces your degrees of freedom (just try closing yourself back off to the boat)

 

So like everything it ends up being a matter of balance. If you open too much you end up in a weak position, or if you open at the wrong time then you are not able to open up later when you need to move your COM forward or get the tip down into the wakes. However, if you don't open up at all then you might end up too far back on the ski with too much load.

 

I think there is a wide range of correct techniques here, so I will provide what I think are two extremes. The first is Andy Mapple, who opens a little bit but only under extreme load. Generally he stays closed to the boat until he has to open a little bit in order to decrease the load and get the tip of the ski down. It seems to be a bit of a brute force approach, but it obviously worked extremely well for him and he was athletic enough to make it happen. I think this is very apparent in the 28 off gate shot in this video:

 

 

The other extreme I believe is Nate Smith. He is very smooth and controlled into his gates and has a more gradual transition to an open stance. He is never fully open to the boat, but he is more open than Andy Mapple. My thought is that he is probably optimizing his core rotation to better keep his COM forward and the ski tip down. You can only open so much, so he doesn't do it all at once, rather he uses his rotational degree of freedom as needed in response to the boat and the result is a very fast and smooth gate shot. I think this is pretty apparent in this video:

 

 

So to me the common link in this case is that they both fight being open somewhat, they don't just quickly do it in order to get their COM forward and tip down. They do it in response to a loads from the boat. Mapple appears to fight it the whole way and only opens as much as the boat forces him, while Smith seems to open gradually in order to decrease load as needed while still getting a ton of angle. Whatever they are doing, they are doing it differently and both approaches work very well, but it's not as easy as simply opening oneself to the boat.

 

My personal goal right now (once I get into the course) is to brute force it like Andy and fight being open as best as I can going into the wakes and only open when the boat forces me to in order to get my COM forward. I don't have his strength or ability, but this should make me strongest at the wakes in order to keep my outbound, I'm hoping.

 

Anyhoo, that's just my 2 cents.

[A_B]

I think we sometimes focus on one thing too much, open/closed, when it really matters most on what the ski is doing below you, and what you need to do above the ski to make it work for you. Some ski open, some closed, and the ones that ski open seem to be more flexble, and have better control below their waist and their knees than those that have to ski closed. I tried "west coast" years ago and came out of it, after running a stupid easy 35 off, with a sore lower back for weeks. "Twisting" the ski in the right direction more than my upper body obviously wrenched something, but the thought of more equal load on both arms made sense, and felt pretty good, at the time..

[TFIN]

You're on to something with your analysis of different styles. However, instead of looking at what different skiers do in contrast to one another, find what big-picture items are the same, regardless of 'open' or 'closed.'

[Chef23]

I love that Mapple video because beside the awesome skiing it is one of my favorite sites. I have driven and skied behind that boat when George owned it. Watching Mapple run 28 and 32 is awesome.

[Horton]

@DefectiveDave

I feel like so many skiers have a misplaced emphasis on being open or closed.

 

The original west coast logic was that being more open allowed you to rotate your hips over your feet at the wakes. This moved you forward and increased your efficiency. The reality is that unless you are an elite athlete this is unrealistic method. For most of us opening our hips more to the boat at the wakes moves our hips BACK.

 

Furthermore being in a awkward stance at edge change is going to cost you outbound direction.

 

I am talking about hips. I think you need equal power going through your arms. Your shoulders will always be more open than your hips but it is your hips that really matter. I advocate a natural and powerful stance.

 

If you tie your handle to a poll, set your feet at 45 degrees from the poll and lean you should be a natural stance - not one with exaggerated twist in your body. Standing on the dock - if you have to twist or contort to get into a position you will never get in that same position on the water.

[DefectiveDave]

@Horton,

 

I think I totally agree with you here, but let me expound a bit.

 

My thought is that any rotation which opens you to the boat is bio-mechanically decreasing the "strength" of your position, but that it may be beneficial to rotate open in certain scenarios. I'm not really considering hip and upper body rotation separately because I feel that one must follow the other to a great extent. Maybe I would go a bit further and say that everything must follow the relative rotation of the ski with a great degree of correlation. For example, someone traveling 50 degrees across course cannot be as open as someone traveling 30 degrees across course.

 

However, physically the ski will point (largely) in the direction of travel while the shoulders (with near equal load though each arm) will tend to want to point in the direction of the pylon but will be limited by each skier's flexibility. From this constrained position, rotating open to the boat will increase rear-arm tension and pull my COM forward, but it will also decrease the moment on the ski which will cause the skier to loose angle. Likewise, if I close myself to the boat at this point in time I will loose a little tension in the rope and shift some tension (whether we feel it or not) to my leading arm; my COM will most likely fall back a little bit but the moment on the ski will increase and give me a little more angle.

 

So my final thoughts there are:

 

Open-to-boat: decreases angle, decreases load, shifts weight forward

Close-to-boat: increase angle, increases load, shifts weight back

 

To me it would really be a balancing act in body rotation in order to maintain balance and strength on the ski and I don't think any top-level skiers consciously think about such things (maybe they act on them somewhere in their lizard brain though). In practice, I don't think it's even possible to manipulate these dynamics in any meaningful way for mere mortals.

 

Once you are under load it is very difficult to fight the boat in order to make such adjustments. To a large extent you are loosing to the boat as soon as it picks you up, it's just a matter of how long you can hold out. If you're really good you can keep the boat in check until you get free of the boat going into the turn. However, unless you are at an easy line length (for oneself) you will not be able to make significant adjustments and hence performance to a large degree is determine by your initial body position.

 

Thus, and here's where I finally get to the point and agree with you, I believe the best approach is to be in a natural, balanced, and strong position when the boat picks you up. I don't think that trying to close or open oneself to the boat is the way to accomplish that position.

[A_B]

What seems to work for me is to load slightly more in my lead arm as I head I to the wake, and then aim transfer to more load to my trailing hand after the wakes. When I think about that, I at least think about something while skiing.

[mwetskier]

i think ' open to the boat ' is primarily about handle placement and loading both arms as evenly as possible. on our onside pull we're naturally open to the boat and the handle is located at about the perfect alignment to allow a balanced position on the ski. in other words equal weight on both feet. if we try to close off and hide our back shoulder as in old school we move the handle location toward the front of the ski, resulting in a need to shift our weight onto our back foot to avoid going otf at the wake.

 

on our off side pull being open to the boat puts the handle over the trailing hip which again allows for even loading of both arms and balanced on both feet. if we close off the shoulders the handle moves toward the front of the ski even more dramatically than the onside and forces the butt back and maybe even a break at the waist.

 

of course lots of top skiers are very good at putting the handle where it belongs no matter what their shoulders are doing. but i'm not one of those guys so i find opening up to the boat *especially off side* gets me better stacked and better balanced. crossing the wake.

[Horton]

@defectivedave

I think you are simultaneously over simplifying and under simplifying the subject. That my friend is talent. Your line of thinking (or explanation) misses some of the dynamics. You have to separate hips and shoulders. I strongly believe that you need your hips to be more closed-ish and your shoulders should be moderately open-ish. Going radical in either direction is a bad thing for most skiers.

 

Everyone has their shoulders open to some extent. The question is about how much extra is beneficial or detrimental. Opening hips or shoulders to the boat does NOT automatically move COM forward, increase or decrease load or change angle. It may seem that way on the dock but I guarantee it is not true on the water.

 

For most skiers running less than 35 off- opening their hips will generally result in a loss of stack and COM back. Some skiers will find strength and stability by focusing on trailing arm pressure and that does open you up a bit but that is in the weeds.

 

The direction of your hips can have a strong influence on the direction of the ski right after the edge change. Being strong in your core and having more closed (ish) hips will create more out bound direction.

 

Closing your shoulders at the end of the turn may cause many bad things for most skiers.

 

[Horton]

@mwetskier

 

I am not sure about your conclusions but concept of handle placement vs rotation is thought provoking. Are you thinking about hips or shoulders? If I close my hips on off side pull I move forward.

 

[ktm300]

Apropos to having hips and shoulders moving in different directions:

 

Our lumbar spines have a maximum rotation per vertebral segment of 3 degrees. This means that herniation can occur past this point. By contrast, we have 7 degrees per segment in our thoracic spine. Train low back for stability not mobility and train to get the mobility from hips and thoracic. Also the peak load is right off the buoy at the precise time that we are twisted ranging from 600lb of load and up. Can be a bad combination.

[mwetskier]

@horton -i'm thinking about hips *and* shoulders but addressing the chris rossi ' equally loaded arms ' concept the shoulders being open are the important part. physics and biomechanics kind of dictate that equally loaded arms require open shoulders til at least the center line of the boat path. you could conceivably have your hips open to the boat and still have the handle in the wrong place but if your *shoulders* are open *and arms equally loaded* then the handle is more likely to be in the right place for a balanced pull.

 

to my mind opening my hips up is more of an action rather than a position. in fact that's a mantra i came up with a while back- ' counter rotation is an action not a position ' . if i want my ski to turn quickly with little speed loss at the 1 ball i need only push my lead hip forward / open continuously thru out the turn -especially the last half.

[DefectiveDave]

@Horton,

 

Haha, I do what I can. Skiing as really complex, unless I consider spherical skiers in a vacuum I can't draw meaningful conclusions. I just try to simplify things as much as possible and then understand and re-complicate them using physics/bio-mechanics. I then attempt to apply what I've learned on the water. This has worked approximately 0% of the time so far, but it's fun!

 

I have a dream that I will one day arrive at a physics-based waterskiing technique that is moderately useful (or at least not useless) on the water.

[liquid d]

Pull harder.

[ozski]

@liquid d has a better PB than I do so he is correct.