Collegiate skiing

[LLUSA]

Isn't it about time to stop professional skiers from participating in collegiate skiing, you're one or the other if you've been paid in the past twelve months you don't ski.

[LeonL]

Lyman, I'd have to agree with you. I guess that also falls in the rule that says " there shall be no differentiation between professional and amateur" or something like that. Hey if you get paid to play football you can't play college ball can you?

[MrJones]

Pro and collegiate skiing are incredibly small sports. To make a rule that would prohibit skiers from earning an education through their athletic skill because they ski in a few "pro" tournaments makes no sense. Don't try to think of waterskiing as NCAA football.

[Horton]

How do you define professional?

[Freddie Winter]

@LLUSA I'm guessing you're talking about Collegiate Nationals this year and a lot of the individual titles going to 'pro skiers'. I couldn't disagree more (and not just because I'm enjoying my time in Collegiate skiing). There are a very very few making money as skiers so why would you want to deny skiers from one of the best opportunities to monetise their ability, in a skiing scholarship? The example of an American football pro playing college sports does not stand up as they will easily make money elsewhere. There are a lot of pro skiers at the nationals this weekend across every event (Erika Lang, Josh Briant, KC Wilson, Steve Neveu, Ben Stadlbaur, Dane Mechler, Giannina Bonnemann, Manon Costard and myself off the top of my head). Do you really think the competition would be more fun or interesting without these? I honestly think the standard of skiing would go down if you banned these skiers from the collegiate system. Thomas Degasperi, Will Asher, Ryan Dodd, Regina Jaquess, Natalia Berdnikava and many others were given the opportunity to concentrate on skiing while at school and raised their game hugely. I see no benefits of banning pros. Just my viewpoint.

[Horton]

If you could just ban the darn British

[RazorRoss3]

I've been back and forth here. This isn't a sport that actually constitutes a career like football, basketball, etc...

 

I don't like the idea that at the college level that average skiers have to stack up against the greats but I think that's the point of D1 and D2. I think what's really unfair is that 3 schools have all the pros, with 80 or so college teams only 6 offer scholarships and let's face it, they will never lose to the other 74 because if you can get a full ride to ski why go anywhere else? Generally speaking the schoparship teams are just in their own league.

 

The other side of that is that they're the only teams that care how they do at nationals. For the Midwest for example if you qualify it means a week and a half off school somewhere warm in October when campus is cold. You're down there skiing for you, if your D2 then it's basically skiing against skiers in your same skill range and it's just glorified regionals which is fun and if your D1 then your fully aware that your just there to ski for you and have fun watching great skiers.

 

It is funny how the D1 bar has changed for the podium though, when Iowa qualified in 2011 (D2, bottom seed, took 7th or something, beat seeding) the winning slalom score on Mens was 1.5@39, the next 4 scores where early 38, deep 35. Women's the top score was early 38 and the 5th place was either early 35 or late 32. Now the winning 2011 scores hardly would make the podium and I'm sure the other events have progressed likewise (exception maybe Zach warden jumping the then record of 192 or something like that, really fun to watch happen)

 

I don't love that college kids, amateurs, average joes have to try and stack up against the pros but what I dislike more is the uneven distribution of resources. I know teams that don't have boats and there practice is tournament skiing. I know teams without sites, courses, ramps, and even skis. It's unfortunate that the spectrum ranges from that to full ride scholarships with 40K budgets. I'd rather let the pros ski but see more opportunities for the other teams because I guarantee the south is not bringing new blood into the sport but the other regions are which means they ARE the growth of the sport and as a sport we need to try and support them.

[Dirt]

I like having the pro skiers in collegiate skiing. It makes it more exciting. How great is it to ski a tournament and be on the dock with some of the best skiers in the world.

I watched the NCWSA Nationals webcast and really enjoyed watching skiers miss their openers, plop over jump crashes and running 10.75.

It looked to me like the top skiers were approachable, cheering all the skiers on and having a great time.

The pro skiers have so few tournaments to showcase their talents. Do we really want to make it even fewer? It's not like they make any money.

[jcamp]

I skied against many pro skiers while I was in college and I have to say that it made the experience for me (a very a run-of-the-mill collegiate skier in a tough conference) even better. I got to know many of the best in the sport and still count a handful of them as friends nearly 20 years after my last collegiate tournament.

[Lovell]

The NCAA eligibility rules should be followed. Basically once you

[Lovell]

Did not finish my post

Once you leave high school and enter higher education, at any level, you have 5 years of which you can compete for 4 of the 5. The only thing that stops the 5 yr clock is a religious mission or military service.

Additionally you cannot earn money participating in any athletic event of any nature. Also if you transfer you have to sit out a year.

If these rules applied the character of the competition would be fair and reflect the spirit of college athletics.

I skied in college and there were pro skiers moving from school to school year after year, which was disrespectful to the kids that were in school for reasons other than skiing, in my opinion

[ntx]

Crazy that some are still in school at age 24 and 25. I think that is the bigger problem. I like the five year eligibility starting at no later than age 19. Can't ski past age 23.

 

 

 

[RazorRoss3]

@Lovell

What is the earn vs make money discrepancy? For example if winnings are less than entry fee; I won money but did not make any. I agree that if those are the rules they should be followed, our sport should not be the exception although no one seems to look at club sports that closely. We are a club sport at most colleges.

[ToddL]

If getting paid at a tournament makes a skier a pro, then Boom!

 

[Onside135]

Let them ski...

[Lovell]

under NCAA rules, which do not apply to club sports like water skiing, accepting prize money would probably disqualify you from collegiate participation. An analogous sport might be golf. If you played a golf tournament that had a purse while you were in college, you would not be eligible to play for your school. Frankly I think it is rare to find another sport where kids of high school and college age are participating in competition where there is a purse.

 

I personally agree with this approach as collegiate sports of which I played two, one sanctioned by the ncaa and water skiing that was a club sport, should serve as a supplement to a student's education and should not simply serve as a publicity tool for moonlighting pros who would otherwise be aged out or are shopping year to year for the best deal.

 

Just my opinion .....

[DaveD]

With winnings like that, maybe Matt can afford a new hat.

 

It's a club sport and the biggest draw for most of the participants is having fun. I would think being able to ski with professionals adds to that fun. Especially if I knew there was no way I could compete with the top guys.

 

I do agree with @RazorRoss3 in that the schools that offer scholarships should be in a separate division.

 

 

[RazorRoss3]

I don't know if any shopping school to school. I think they pick 1 school, where they can get their education and ski and good for them for being good enough to earn a scholarship for it. They get great coaching and hopefully the education lets them keep skiing well into the future.

[gregy]

@razorross3 I know the college team I was on was mostly self funded. We were setup as a club and got few thousand a year from the school. The club dues paid for lake cost and travel. There were a few kids that had boats. They do have a team boat now but I'm not sure how its paid for. It would be nice if more schools stepped up but really there are more with scolarshipped skier than the 80s when I was skiing in college.

[skidawg]

Pro skiers skiing collegiate, pro skiers skiing age group at nationals-the list goes on and on- our sport is to small to try to alienate the pros. Let them ski collegiate, it raises the bar for everyone and it's amazing to watch!

[brody]

I had the opportunity to ski against drew Ross at nationals. No chance for me but I get to tell people I competed against him!!

[RazorRoss3]

Another angle is that one pro does not equal a good team. Having 5 average skiers wins events over having one rockstar and nothing else. You'll always have the 3 big schools who scholarship 3 pros per event but the rest of the D1 schools have your high level M/W1 skiers like the level 8 in the usawaterski rankings, the D2 teams have everything from that and under. Those top 3 teams will always be top 3, but the rest of the playing field is always changing.

[Texas6]

If they are good enough to ski at the pro level in college, good for them. Congrats for amazing talent, years of hard work, and the College they attend. We should be talking about how we build more collegiate programs like the little dynasty down in Louisiana, not how we prevent them from competing. And kudos to Alabama for a heck of a weekend as well. That is an amazing tournament to watch, and the enthusiasm all of those students have makes that the best tournament Ive ever attended

[gregy]

Where do you draw the line. How many good college skiers have gotten free skis, gear etc? Its an expensive sport, poor college kids need all the help they can get. You start saying no pros then these kids will be scrutinized for every free handout they take.

[ToddL]

@DaveD truly LOL about the hat comment! It's a Bennett's Ski School hat that he wears all the time. Lucky hat, I guess.

[LeonL]

I guess I see the error in my thinking previously, after reading so many insightful comments.

[keithh2oskier]

Skied collegiate D1 from 04-08 in the West Coast. We had some good skiers on my team (I was 5th in our Mens slalom rotation and could get into 35' so there was a big discrepancy between most of the other teams who were struggling to make a pass. We also has some open level skiers in our region and then of course skiing nationals we got to ski against the powerhouse schools with actual "pros". Should they be allowed to ski? HELL YES. All of the "pro" skiers were just as friendly as everyone else and when it came down to watching them, everyone on the shore was amazed at watching them skiing. Yeh without them, my team would have gone from 5th or 6th place at nationals to probably 5th or 6th place at nationals (they still would have -38/-39' AM skiers) so the chances of making a big impact in overall placements might not change a bit.

 

But I think the most important part to take away is the "pros" were rooting along with their teammates no matter if they are running -39 or 26 long line - which is what collegiate skiing is all about - Team Pride. They were always super supportive and really wanted everyone to have fun and were partying next to you on Saturday night. In my opinion, having them only grows the sport, making friendships, and if even a small percentage of that group after college can find the means to waterski (life's expensive, especially when your in your 20s and starting a family, house, etc.), then its a WIN.

 

 

[ForrestGump]

I just spent 4 days with all these kids. When Stephen Neveue kicked the crap out of the D2 slalom field by over a pass, it was never heard...."Pros shouldn't be skiing with us." Those kids loved it. At the banquet last night, there were 350 kids cheering for Stephen, Freddie, Erica Lang, Manon just as hard as for anyone else.

 

Maybe there were skiers going from school to school at one point. But I'm not seeing that now days. 99.9% of them would consider that sacrilege! They are there for the education and the experience and treat their schools, their team mates, and their competitors with the utmost respect. There will always be a bad apple, but I couldn't even tell you who the bad apple is now days.

 

Honestly, collegiate skiing and their tournaments might be the one part of USA Waterski that actually works right. Leave it alone. I'd much rather have their excitement and atmosphere than the stuffy, exclusionary, run everything so fast so everyone gets 3 rounds per day atmosphere we currently have in "regular" tournament waterskiing.

[Kelvin]

NCWSA has the same rule as NCAA on changing schools - you must sit out 1 year. I've seen it happen a few times in the past 5 years in the south. Personally, I think it is a silly rule for NCWSA. Who cares if a few kids a year head off to college and have a bad experience and want to change schools. Its not like the big money sports of the NCAA.

[Lovell]

I'm not totally in tune with the college scene these days, but back in the nineties I recall a couple of the better pros who were rumored not to be college material, save for their skiing ability, ski for three different schools, over a couple of years with virtually no explanation. In our eyes coming from a non scholarship team, we figured he just got a better deal at each new school, was there to ski only and had almost no shot of graduating or even going to class. That hired gun implication was not well received. Hopefully, that has fallen by the wayside.

[Horton]

@Lovell those rumors always exist in college sports. I seriously doubt those rumors had much merit.

[Lovell]

You are probably right and I probably should climb out of the ivory tower, but I do find this discussion to be compelling so thanks for putting up with it.

[Chef23]

@gregy the NCAA allows kids to get equipment from manufacturers now and keep their status. I have seen this in golf where top amateurs get equipment from manufacturers without impacting status.

[Horton]

@Lovell I skied for ULM/NLU. My freshman year I was the number one or number two jump & trick skier on the team. I did in fact party WAY too much that first semester and was off the team the next semester. If I didn't get my grades up I was not getting on the team.

 

As a side note I'm sure my journalism professors never thought I would make a penny doing something like this. They never actually said the world needs ditch diggers but I'm pretty sure that's what they were thinking

[bassfooter]

Thank you, @ShaneH. You nailed it. The kids are stoked and the resulting halo effect of having these talented young athletes skiing among the up-and-comers creates a buzz across all age groups in this sport. The people who love this sport seem to appreciate the aspect of competing against yourself as you share the starting dock with Masters- or Open-level competitors.

 

Am I the only one who’s concerned that an AWSA Board Member seems to be criticizing one of the things that’s actually working in our sport?

[eleeski]

Are Open skiers pros? Or just someone making $100,000 (wait are any skiers making that?)? Our sport is too small and too underpaid to restrict "pros".

 

The Open skiers out west have been part of the team, great coaches, coachable students, and in some cases the driving force behind the team. We cannot afford to lose or restrict this valuable asset.

 

Eric

 

Congratulations ULL! And WWU! And SDSU! And all the teams that competed at Nationals and those that tried to get there. College skiing rocks!

[rab]

As a college skier at the bottom of the rankings I am fine with the few pros competing.

A good question though is do the teams with pros still have a B-team? I could see a down side if their was a team cutting skiers for not being good enough.

[LLUSA]

@FWinter, not what I'm saying, just a thought, years ago, the early 80's to be exact there was talk with the NCAA about making women's water skiing a Title IX sport for major colleges in need of alternative sports for women, due to the collegiate ski leadership at that time, ( one person in particular) it was never really explored. Just think where we would be today, Alabama spent 4 million on a boat house for rowing! As for thinking your going to make a pro career out of football, good luck, the odds I would suspect are slimmer than making a living water skiing There are over 30,000 football players in the NCAA, and over 11000 in the FBS, you do the math

[Lovell]

@Horton

Thanks for providing that example. It may sound Polyannaish, but those are the types of lessons that collegiate sports should teach and I think the purpose is being accomplished by enforcing grade regulations etc. You will probably tell your kids and grandkids about the lesson you learned about the need to be as good in the classroom as you were at the lake. If so, than I think it's mission accomplished

 

I personally think that in my professional life as an attorney I rely as much on my experiences as a collegiate athlete as I do on what I learned in the classroom. Like you, I'm pretty sure most of my professors never thought I would reach any level of professional success, although I do think the football and water ski coaches, probably thought I'd turn out ok.

 

Fascinating perspectives here.

[Freddie Winter]

@LLUSA I would love for skiing to be involved in greater things like being a NCAA. Certainly if that came calling it would be a fantastic thing for the sport and thing would have to be revised as regards paid skiers in schools. My point about pro footballers was more to demonstrate that if they already have a career in the NFL then they have a great way of monetising their talent that few skiers do.

@rab I can only talk on behalf of my team (ULM) but this year we didn't even enter a full team so no one is being pushed out for the 'pros' in our ranks. We have 10 skiers, including myself, with 5 overall women and 4 overall men. I put on a trick ski for the team but I couldn't justify hitting a ramp for the first time in 11 years, especially as only the top 4 scores are taken for team points.

@Horton the black arm band is out today. On behalf of the team, sorry for letting you down!

[DaveD]

@FWinter I wouldn't recommend having the NCAA involved in college waterskiing. They suck the fun out of everything they touch.

[aupatking]

Every college team should have "pro" athletes, with as much financial aid as possible. Scholarships would be great. What's the student turnout to the events at the schools with big time skiers? My bet is its much higher than the teams with the lesser talent. Big college programs in any sport draw more crowds because of higher caliber athletes. College programs could save water skiing. A solid team, that works with, teaches, and coaches the ski club would be an incredible way to grow the sport. A simple team with a club attached setup.

That sounds great to me. What half ass decent free skier kid who's never been on the course wouldn't want to ski with and be coached by the worlds number 3 skier. I'd be in ULM's ski club @FWinter

[unksskis]

If they are an eligible student, they should be able to ski. I would say in the future there needs to be a separation from teams that get support, and those that support themselves, with the goal to build more school supported teams. Wakeboarding will eventually take over the club majority at schools if not.

[RazorRoss3]

Most teams in the Midwest are waterski-wakeboard already. Some men's trick teams are 2 guys who can throw a bankroll and then 3 who can do surface spins and wake 180s

[lpskier]

@FWinter Be careful what you wish for. If water skiing was an NCAA sport, it would be a lot different animal than what it is today. Drinking? No. Elite level skiers only participating at tournaments and not at practice? No. Join a frat or sorority? No. Songs outlining the activities performed on given days of the week? No. Not even the Sunday activity as the atheists would object. My daughter went to Auburn as a D1 athlete in equestrian. She showed horses for 12 years before getting to college. The college D1 experience was not for her. Her solution? The AU ski team. The balance of her college career was, by all accounts, a blast.

[akale15]

Absolutely let them ski....this sport is to small not to. The fact of the matter is a majority of skiers (collegiate or not) are no way skiing at a "professional level" and likely never will be in their entire skiing lifetime but there is also a good number of those who can compete the pros....and that is what makes it interesting. For example a deep 39.5 off pass could have easily won mens slalom and has by non-professionals in the past but the fact that (4) skiers got into 41 off just goes to show how much this sport has grown.

 

In my opinion if anything needs to change it would be finding ways to help make collegiate skiing more affordable for all athletes. Which since money is involved this is about an impossible task. I'm not saying the scholarship programs are at an unfair advantage, because if I was of the ability to ski on scholarship I surely would try, but having skied for a school with no financial assistance it can be a financial burden for some. Example my junior year I was the #5 mens slalom and trick skier and could have skied in nationals but couldn't afford to go that year after spending hundreds of dollars already that season for entry fees, club dues, boat gas, ect...just glad I was able to partake my senior year.

[aupatking]

What better venue for the boat companies to help out? You're building good will and brand loyalty with the very people that can afford your products. Well, after a couple years in the workforce.

Really all of the manufacturers of all ski products should be courting this market.

Edit: As soon as I posted this I wanted to "off topic" it

[ToddL]

Collegiate skiing: a pic is worth 1000 words.

 

[Razorskier1]

Been to one collegiate nationals. There is really nothing like it in the sport, and given the team nature, it would be hard to replicate. I am so glad I went. The team spirit, cheering, etc, is so cool!

[disland]

Based on the rules I still have eligibility. I might enter school just to ski