Boot Performance

[Adam Caldwell]

Inspiration behind this post came from reading the blog below. For anyone who has ever tinkered with boots, they will appreciate what this person has attempted to do in the snow ski industry.

 

skimoves.me/54-2/about/

 

"I started skiing in 1970 in low-cut leather boots with plastic soles. Since the speed and movement didn’t bother me, I quickly advanced and was soon making effortless parallel turns. When I enrolled in a ski week after only a few days on the ski slopes I was assigned to the expert group after the ski school ski off. The instructors labelled me a ‘natural skier’; born to ski.

 

All this changed the next season when I switched to the new rigid plastic boots the ski magazines were raving about. But instead of the expected quantum boost in my skiing prowess, my skiing literally went downhill. I had almost no balance and little or no control. I was not alone. That ski season I met many others, some of who, like me, had skied well in low-cut leather boots but who were struggling in the new technology."

 

I found this very interesting as I started snow skiing in hard plastic boots and never experienced a leather one, although I could directly relate this my water ski experience. Curious to see how many others are in the same boat? Thinking about the differences between rubber and hard-shell water ski bindings, its easy to see the correlations too snow skiing and the lessons that can be learned.

 

Personally, I use a reflex binding primarily because of the release mechanism. I also like the fact that plastic does not wear out as quickly as rubber once things are dialed and broken in. At the risk of offending anyone or a particular company, being brutally honest, I am completely unable to run my opening pass on a stock Reflex hard-shell binding, even after several attempt's. Surprising? Not really. There are few, if any, top level skiers who ski on a "stock" hard-shell binding. Nearly all of them are making modifications to allow for better fit, articulation, movement, feel, performance, etc. For the guys that ski on unmodified hard-shells, you are far superior skiers then I am!

 

If you have tried several skis, but seem to have a common issue on all of them, then its very possible the boots may be something you want to look more closely at. Or, if you are trying to emulate movements/techniques you ski top skiers doing on the water but cant seem to make it happen, it might be time to look more closely at your ski boots. I spend many hours cutting away plastic, moving buckles, and adding foam to get the shell to "move" with my ankle and foot as much as possible, in the way I want it to. More like what you would get from a rubber binding, but with a few "enhancements". Old rubber bindings should get a lot more credit then they do. From a bio-mechanical perspective, there are number of things they allow the skier to do that a stiff hard-shell boot simply will not.

 

I'm not here to talk down on reflex or any other boot manufacturer. My aim is to simply highlight the importance of proper 'boot' fitting/function to help people open their minds and take a different perspective on what may be holding them back from a performance perspective. While I have used many "sketchy" setups on bindings, I would not advocate doing so, or making modifications without fully understanding their impact. Its dangerous. And can be very risky, and should be taken very seriously. However, there are things that can be done to enhance a "stock" boot, that can improve performance and the experience, without sacrificing overall safety. I'm not sure its wise to share modifications on this forum, but if anyone is curious, they can PM me and I will be happy to show you some of the things I have done.

 

Below are a few things I noticed this past October when riding a stock reflex Super-shell with Intuition liner after coming off a highly modified white-cuff reflex.

The complete inability to stand up tall and get my COM over my front foot at all. Especially during the gate glide which completely limited my ability to move over the ski.

Zero sensation of "pressure" anywhere on the bottom of my foot. Everything was felt through the shin or side of the leg.

No awareness of the skis edge in the water and where pressure was building on the bottom of the ski.

Tip rise consistently out of finish of both turns.

Ski rolled over too far on a heel-side turn and wake crossing, and also took far long to un-weight and transition into the preturn.

Toe-side preturn was flat and ski wanted to bank up and run straight.

 

All of these issues are a direct result of the boot limiting the natural movement of my foot/ankle/shin. Not the ski, not the technique, not the fin. I was unable to run a complete pass at 28, 32, or 35. After several hours making several modifications to the shell, liner, and buckle location such that it mimicked my old setup, all of these problems went away and I was able to run into 41 with no adjustments to the fin, ski, or boot position. It may come as a surprise to some, but many of the greatest performances of their time happened on rubber bindings. Mapple, Rodgers, Parish, Smith. IMO, not at all a coincidence they all used bindings that allow for significant movement of the joints within the foot/ankle/shin.

 

I was very inspired by reading the Skiers Manifesto blog as I realized that while I have learned a lot over the years about boots and their impact on performance there is still a lot more to be understood in the water-skiing world. If a couple tweaks to a boot can make such a huge difference in overall performance, then perhaps further optimization could mean another buoy or two at maximum effort, if not more.

 

 

[Chef23]

Interesting thoughts. When you get some time I would be interested to hear what changes you made.

[Wish]

Very interesting. Hmmmm...modify my hardshells.

 

I believe Andy cut the bottom plate out of his rubber bindings so his foot rested directly on the ski so he could feel what was happening..he also moved to the Reflex more recently. I rode a test Obrien ski, the blue Mapple, with double rubber high raps at a time I was riding the same ski with hard shells. I remember noticing better performance on the rubber set up but hard shells were the new in thing.

 

I'll have to ask my dad what he remembers of his leather snow ski boots vs his first pair of plastic ones and what he remembers in terms of perfomance. I had leather lace ups but I was only 3 sooo...

[thager]

I started snow skiing in the low leather ski bindings. You could flex your ankles and really feel the snow. Soles were thinner I think. Took me a quite a while to get comfortable in the heavy rigid forward leaning plastic boots of the day. Didn't help having bow legs which is the problem I have with the solid plastic rollerblade style slalom boots today. If I tighten the uppers much at all the response on one edge is entirely different on one side compared to the other. Even canting the boot didn't help the pressure felt on the outside of my lower leg. Perhaps an insole orthotic adjustment would be better. Radar Stradas work best for me probably due to the softer lateral stiffness.

[Adam Caldwell]

@thager

 

I think the Radars are good in terms of having the right mix of "softness" and that why so many people have success with them. I recall talking to Rossi years ago and he talked about the tremendous amount of work they did with that boot before letting it go to market. The problem with a lot of shells is they are just a copy/paste version of a inline or hockey skate.

 

What is interesting about insoles or arch supports, is that it they can limit how quickly and how much you can shift your weight forward over the inside edge of the ski. The arch support seems to not allow your foot to do its job as you move up over the ski, by the dropping the arch as the weight /load shifts the from the heel to the fore-foot. As a result you are limited as to how far forward you can shift the edge pressure on the bottom of the ski.

 

Some interesting discussion on it specifically can be found here.

skimoves.me/2015/02/17/what-do-insoles-and-orthotics-do/

skimoves.me/2014/02/22/outing-the-arch-collapse-story/

 

And this article actual has a simple test you can do, which I found very interesting and worth playing with.

skimoves.me/2015/03/05/how-to-confirm-forefoot-load-transfer-in-the-boot/

 

What I noticed immediately in this little "arch support" test, is that I am able to shift my front knee inward over the inside edge of my forefoot (or what I would call out over the inside edge of my ski on a toeside turn) much farther, much easier, without having to shift my entire upper-body at all, and simply steer my knee while flexing my ankle.

 

The further your front knee can shift laterally over the inside edge, the larger the moment you can create, and the more edge pressure ski roll you can generate. This means more edge pressure, further forward, resulting in a tighter radius turn.

 

The other interesting part is that with out restriction under the arch, it feels as though its easier to shift weight even further forward and put more pressure on the ball of the frontfoot without having to actually 'lean' the upper body, but rather just flex the ankle and knee a bit more.

 

While an arch support can help transfer a laterally force, it limits the moment-arm that can be generated over the edge, and also the location of that moment. Ultimately restricting ones ability to reach a full leveraged potential which can only be attained by increasing the moment arm lever.

 

@Wish

The one time Mapple ever rode in the boat while I was free skiing, he talked a lot about just softening the front ankle/knee into a toeside turn, and the ski should drop in automatically. When I did it, it was rather difficult to do/feel, and nothing really changed. Now, I'm realizing it may have been largely because my hardshell at the time was too stiff and too supportive, limiting the natural movement in my ankle/foot/shin to allow my COM to shift more in relation to the pressure on the skis turning edge. Maybe what allows them to get so much ski in the water so early has as much to do with the freedom of the foot&arch to function naturally on top of a flat unsupported foot bed, as it does actual technique.

 

I think to correct the problem in a Reflex shell completely, one would have to heat the entire boot to flatten the base. If you look close, the bottom of the shell is curved with an arch support. Even with a hard and flat bottomed liner you would still have an issue. The only other fix would be to fill the heel and toe of the shell from the inside with epoxy or bondo until there is a level base to work with.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

My suggestion to anyone "considering" modifying a boot they know works and are comfortable with is to find a pair of inexpensive, highly used beat up shells and liners to play with, and keep the current boots as a 'known standard". Once you cut away a 3" piece of plastic, it does not go back together very well.

[Chef23]

@adamhcaldwell can you post a picture of your boot sometime? I am on Radar but my son is on Reflex and I have an extra beat up boot I could fool around with for him. I have already cut the cuff down some.

[DefectiveDave]

@adamhcaldwell,

 

This is a timely topic for me. Recently I've been thinking of my ankles as pieces of equipment that I want to "upgrade" in order to increase my range of COM movement over the ski. I've been doing some strengthening and stretching over the last two months which have yielded some good results. However, regardless of flexibility I have noticed that my front reflex liner is very resistance to ankle dorsiflexion and lateral motion. While I can force my maximum range of motion in dryland tests it is quite difficult and it would definitely hinder me to some extent on the water.

 

It is pretty clear to me that I am going to be making some "adjustments" to the boot itself, but at the moment I'm waiting for Spring so that I can assess the changes one-by-one as I make them. So having a control boot lying around sounds like a good idea. :-)

 

Right now the only two modifications I have considered are:

 

1) trimming down the white cuff to decrease it's leverage

2) taking some material out of the liner where the bridge of the foot meets the ankle (I've noticed this material is constrained by the buckles and must be compressed significantly to put the ankle in even minor dorsiflexion)

 

Number 1 should help with both lateral and forward movement, while number 2 is kind of a forward movement only modification. Anyway, I'm sure this problem affects some people more than others and as with all things it is likely possible to partially or fully compensate with modifications in technique. However, it would still be more ideal to allow the extra freedom of movement on the ski.

 

So like @Chef23 I would love to hear what modifications you have made to improve upon the reflex boot! The more ideas come spring, the better!

[Adam Caldwell]

The cuff only improves things slightly. Moving the buckles is another important item, however, the big change for me is within modification to the base of the shell itself. Liners do make a difference to.

 

I will work on a more formal PDF, maybe with a video explaining/showing some of the improvements to share via email, but wont be able to get it done for another week or so.

[Wish]

@adamhcaldwell ok...stupid questions...and I completly believe what you've experienced and am already thinkn of mods..

If the cuffs are ridged up high and your COM is moving forward as much as it can in them, doesn't that transfer weight to the turning edge sooner as pressure is applied through the stiffness of the boot? As my ankle presses more on the front of the boot, wouldn't it transfer to the front of the ski? Also as my back heal lifts in my rear boot and reaches a stopping point but still has upward pressure, aren't I applying lift to the tail of the ski?

 

As a side note I've noticed when skating at a local rink during open skate days that some of the FASTEST most agile youth hockey players have their skates berrally laced at the top of the boot. All the while I have mine laced to where my feet are turning blue for support.

 

[Horton]

@Wish pressing forward on a stiff cuff is not the same as actually moving your COM forward.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton is exactly right.

[AdamCord]

Disclaimer: I am not an expert on feet or bindings, just someone who has played around with a lot of configurations over the years, and worked on some for a ski company.

 

@Wish I'll try and answer your question...

 

Yes, lifting your back foot or pressuring the top of a cuff with your ankle will absolutely pressure the front or side of the ski due to the moment created about the ski. The question here is not so much about whether we CAN pressure the edge or front of the ski, but whether we can do it with consistent control and without having to excessively move our leg/knee to do it.

 

Consider this: The bottom of the foot has more nerve endings than any other part of our body. This is clearly something that we evolved for a reason. This is how we can be so precise with our movements when walking/running. We get constant and precise feedback through the bottom of our feet. By taking the control of the ski away from the bottom of the foot and moving it to our shin bone, we have lost that precise feedback and control.

 

Now that being said...do we need some ankle support? Of course we do. Our ankles were designed for walking, running, jumping, but never for skiing. We need some amount of ankle support to be able to effectively control the ski and also to do it safely. But when we take the foot out of the picture and the shin bone drives everything, we lose a lot.

 

[Wish]

@Horton...I gathered that. ;-)

 

@AdamCord that makes a lot of sense. Thanks. And also explains why Mapple cut the boot plate away under his foot so the bottom of his foot rested directly on the ski. I'm so far from feeling the bottom of the ski on my set up its crazy...hmmm..

[CsSkis]

@AdamCord and @adamhcaldwell : Would you please address lateral articulation of the ankle versus fore/aft articulation. I have found that a binding that is laterally soft provides me with almost no edge control (limiting case being the bindings that are put on beginner doubles), whereas fore/aft softness has never been a problem (fore/aft being taken care of quite nicely by a front and back foot)

[Adam Caldwell]

If the ankle is in a highly stiff shell with limited mobility, then basically your fixing the relationship between the shin bone and the bottom of the ski. The only way you can change the planni angle of the ski would be to change the angle of the shin.

 

Say it's at a 90deg angle. Since your foot/ankle cannot articulate, that means you have to lean your upper body very far forward to shift COM forward on the ski, which will be difficult considering that if your ankle is in a cast, you can't bend your knee worth a damn.

 

If you have mobility and flex in the foot ( like the young hockey players with super loose upper laces), a small small flex in the ankle and knee can shift the weight in your foot from the heel to the fore foot with very little upper body movement at all. Now all that needs to be done to change the planing angle of the ski is flex your ankle/knee a little and allow your COM to shift 7" forward from the heel to the ball of the foot, all the while still maintaining balance.

 

 

It's not just small kids who keep their skates loose, nearly all college players I have ever known do the same, and assume the pros would also.

 

Like @AdamCord stated, we need some support, and a limit when it comes to ankle flexion so we don't crush the ankle, but wearing a stiff plastic cast on top of a waterski is far from an ideal situation, and severely limiting from an overall athleticism standpoint.

[dchristman]

@wish @Than_Bogan based on @AdamCord 's comments, those Freelease bindings aren't sounding so crazy now, are they :-) Natural selection will develop stronger ankles for skiing in future generations.

[gregy]

I went from double rubber boots (T-factors) to Reflex with R-style resently. First blacktop and now to Supershell. The transition to the Blacktop was pretty easy. I'm using blue superfeet insoles. The Blacktop was a little short so I went to Supershell.

 

Supershell have taken a little longer to adjust to. The first try on the Supershell I had the rear strap in stock position which was limiting forward ankle flex. The made turns completely unpredictable with the shin pushing against the cuff. I moved the strap mounting down one hole which made it much better. At first they were too loose, its taken me 3 tries to get the liner "ok". I could get even better from what I've learned on the first 3 attempts.

 

I'm not completely happy with the present insole but I fell much better than without it. The Blacktops were really uncomfortable without the insoles. I'm looking forward to reading the snow ski boot article completely. I'm definitely going to have to do something with the insole. Not sure past that. Probably try modifying the rear so I can rotate it a little more.

[Deanoski]

Here a few pic of my reflex shell mods flatten sole ect

 

[Deanoski]

heres one more

 

[Chef23]

@Deanoski how did you go about flattening the bottom of the boot? Did you just go at it with a heat Gun? How did you get it to stay flat while it cooled?

[Deanoski]

 

[Deanoski]

heat the bottom of the boot and put it in the reflex binding with material on top of the toe where it slips into the horse shoe so it pushes the toe down then let it cool. it took me 3 times to get it flat I did not want to stress the plastic by changing in one heat session. then I low the stock horse shoe by taking out the 1/4 shim and wrapping some tape around the horse shoe the keep the boot contact tight.

[dchristman]

@Deanoski those cuts between the front buckles look like they probably aided in getting it flattened as well as adding a little more needed lateral flex.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Deanoski Did you find cutting betweent the buckles to be an improvement? I did the same thing before but quickly had to bond it back together with some aluminum plate to stiffen it back up again. I felt like I lost too much lateral stiffness like that (as @CsSkis stated is not a good thing), and also felt like I wasn't able to apply rotational moments through my foot and control the ski through the turn as effectively.

 

In theory, to increase freedom of the ankle/foot articulation fore&aft, it would make sense to split the hard plastic tongue on your liner in two pieces right at the hinge of top of the foot. Although, considering the base of your shell is super soft with the split between the buckles, then maybe the combination that works well together.

[Deanoski]

@adamhcaldwell this is my second blk shell I could not make my opener -28 with the stock boot so I started cutting away material to get the boot to work, the cuts between the 1 -2 buckle along with a soft plastic tongue made a huge difference for me> the plastic tongue gives you a smooth progressive flex not just a hinging cuff and it keeps me from feeling like I was falling out the back at the end of the turn. Im thinking about getting a new super shell but it looks to stiff. so I will probably get a blk cuff and do all the mods but not do the cut between the 1-2 buckle. to see how it feels and works now that I have been on reflex hard shells for 9 years I may like more lateral stiffness? I do not use foot beds in my boots I do not like them I can not ski as well in my snow ski boots or my waterski boots. so I'm in the no foot bed club let the foot work and articulate like it was designed.

 

Ps great thread!

Deano

[Dirt]

I wanted to dislike Adamcaldwell's post only because he wrote, "@Horton is exactly right"

I just don't like reading it. It pains me.

[Horton]

@Dirt that post by Caldwell may be the high point in my life

[Fehlindra]

So guys do we rly need those upper cuffs at all it just seems to hinder our movements lateral, fore/aft

[Adam Caldwell]

@Fehlindra

The upper cuff can provide benefit in terms of lateral support. However, for a slalom waterski, there is absolutely no need for them to be as high up on the leg as they are. Being that high just creates unnecessary issues.

 

A cuff of an appropriate height, that has a lot of "freedom" to move front and back is what you want to have. Depending on the liner used, thicker ones can certainly hinder the front and back movement significantly. The problem with a thinner liner is that it doesn't provide enough volume on the top of the foot to completely fill out the shell, so you end up with too much slop.

 

@Deanoski - A small square 1"x1"x0.5" piece of aluminum with a pop-rivet in each corner scabbed over the slits you made between the buckles will stiffen it right back up. I've been riding mine like that for a few years now after I originally made those cuts and decided I didn't like it so much. Might be a good way to test the difference without making mods to a new boot.

 

I just went from the white cuff reflex to the super-shell. Its definitely stiffer plastic. Also the foot volume is much higher. Doesn't seem to fit quite as snug as my old one, but nothing a few extra pieces of rubber didn't take care of. If I had to do it again, I would have just picked up a new white cuff reflex. The metal buckles are cool, but I even had to modify those as well to get them to stay latched when skiing. Lower two kept popping open mid pass due to geometry issues between the buckle and the shell. Another shortcoming is they are also heavier.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell why is a little slop in the cuff a bad thing. I see that as additional range of motion. Maybe not the perfect solution but we are talking water ski boots.

[Deanoski]

@adamhcaldwell I will give the metal bridge/ bracket a try easy to do I will t nuts so one set on one set off. will be easy to try this spring

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton, I agree completely. If I stated otherwise, I need to fix it!

 

I do think too tight on the cuff is not ideal. Looser is better, to a point. I run the cuff on my reflex connected, but barely. Just enough that it will mechanically load the release when it needs to.

 

To clarify, my feeling is that a bit of slop around the shin bone/cuff can be beneficial on a hard shell, but slop in the fore-body of the boot is definitely not.

[ToddL]

Just a crazy idea, but what if the "cuff" was built with hinged plastic risers on each side and a soft/rubber cuff to wrap around them and the lower shin? It seems that would still provide lateral support but free up forward/aft flex.

[Adam Caldwell]

@ToddL Not crazy. I know a few doing basically that. Not at liberty to say who.

[CsSkis]

@ToddL I developed a pair of boots such as you are describing. The boots had laterally stiff risers that hinged freely from the point of the ankle. The only design limitation that I encountered is that the risers needed to be (stiffly) connected around the back of the leg in order for the risers to not move independently. If they moved independently, then the "cuff" would tend to rotate, rather than translate purely fore and aft (this occurred even with a fabric strap connecting them). The rotation wasn't consistent and, as a result, neither was the lateral stiffness. Bottom line, I didn't find the boots to be any advantage over a "normal" hardshell that was "loose" in fore and aft flex. The boots just ended up being more complex.

 

@adamhcaldwell When you cut out part of your boot between the buckles, you significantly reduced the lateral stiffness of the shell. The cuff is relying on the lower part of the boot as a "foundation". Effectively, when you trimmed away that part of the boot, you were allowing (to a lower extent) some of the same cuff rotation to occur, like I have described above.

 

@Horton A loose cuff, with respect to lateral stiffness, means that there is a lag between your movement and putting a lateral load into the boot. Whether or not that is a problem, is up to you. In my case, I found it to be disturbing. My brain wasn't getting feedback related to the movement and I would tend to overcompensate.

[ozski]

Two weeks back i entered a tournament carrying a slight ankle injury, the genius in me decided to strap my ankle up nice and firm just to be on the safe side. Big mistake as i could barely turn the ski and missed my opening pass. I've become so accustomed to the easy forward / back range that I have with my setup it did not occur to me that limiting my ankle movement would impact my skiing as much as it did. It felt ugly and I'm sure it looked ugly. Second day, no tape and equaled my PB. Lesson learned.

[Adam Caldwell]

For anyone questioning the importance of having the ability to "feel" pressure/load on the balls of the feet, this article is worth the read. (Based on a alpine ski study)

 

skimoves.me/2015/12/24/implications-of-the-university-of-ottawa-pressure-studies/

 

"IMPLICATIONS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA PRESSURE STUDIES"

 

The two University of Ottawa pressure studies used different groups of ski instructors with different qualifications for each study. One study used three highly skilled ski instructors (C.S.I.A. Level VI). The other study, the one presented at the Proceedings of the XVI International Symposium on Biomechanics in Sports (1998), used six internationally certified Canadian ski instructors. The pressure patterns seen in the two groups had some important differences.

 

“Of interest however is the short distance travelled by the cop during most of the turns.” (made by the six internationally certified Canadian ski instructors)

 

 

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@dirt don't feel too bad, I think that's twice Horton has been right over the years and I don't remember the first one.

 

@adam great thread. I've played with bindings a lot over the years but have been unable to find my favorite shell for about the last 5 years and have had to work with other boots with less success. Time to start tinkering again:)

[Wish]

@adamhcaldwell does elevating the heal of the boot itself (front, back or both) do anything positive or neg as I've seen many variations? Beginning to understand that my understanding of bindings is weak but I'm learning so thanks for that!!

[MattP]

If y'all have never seen @Bruce_Butterfield's binding set up I would not quite call it tinkering!

 

@adamhcaldwell I found that adding the cuts between the buckles to be an improvement. I am using the same kind of shell that Reflex uses with the supershell on my OB4 system. Coming off an older Reflex black boot I found that my new shell did not form to my foot as well. I will note I did go up a shell size. The cuts allowed each buckle to do it's job in it's respective area of the foot. Though these cuts do not affect the release mechanism like they might with Reflex as the boot is bolted to a plate. I will say that the Roxa/Supershell has a much more substantial base to it than previous hardshells used in skiing. @CsSkis I would think that you would want to control the ski from ankle and foot movement not from what my shin/leg are doing. I could be completely wrong about that.

 

I run my cuff trimmed down to the top of the buckle clasp and very loose with a medium thickness liner. I think this allows my ankle to articulate better and if my body is in a not so perfect position that it will not directly effect the ski's position as drastically as it would if the cuff buckle was super tight.

I also have to use some foam to fill the area above my toes so that my foot makes contact with the top of the boot. I have also heated it up and dropped the toe box down like @Deanoski to get my foot working on the right plane.

 

@ToddL I a having a hard time visualizing what kind of cuff you are talking about. Care to make another famous drawing?

 

@Wish I would say elevating the heel of a boot is mostly dependent on what the boot was originally designed to be used for. Skate bindings are not level from heal to toe and need to be leveled out to get the same feeling if you were using a rubber binding or foot directly on the ski like Mapple used to do.

[Wish]

@MattP ya.. that I get. Wondering about elevation and performance, as in elivated for the sake of raising the heel of the foot/feet more then what it would be if resting on the ski itself ...be that 1/4" or more.

[Alberto Soares]

 

[Ed_Johnson]

@adamhcaldwell .... and anyone else...I mentioned in another thread that by switching to the Supershell with R-Style Rear, the R Rear really allowed me to greatly increase my COM movement by not being restricted by the full rear boot..It significantly improved my skiing. The R-Style holds your foot as firmly as any full rear boot I have ever used, while still allowing SO MUCH more freedom of movement.

 

My question is, has anyone ever tried a FRONT and REAR R-Style together...Would truly be super safe and allow an extreme amount of COM movement.

 

 

[dchristman]

@Ed_Johnson I haven't tried front and rear R-style, but I have tried no bindings front and rear. I don't think both R-style would work well.

 

Some level of lateral support is absolutely required. Consider skiing on a door... How much lateral support would you need to get it on edge? Now suppose you're skiing on a cross country snow ski. What would it take to get that on edge? I believe your rear foot requires less lateral support because the ski is narrower in the tail.

[Adam Caldwell]

Takes some getting used to. Cuff of my front binding broke off once in a crash about a year ago. I continued to ski the set and managed a couple 35s but didnt feel safe at all going to 38 without the cuff. Perhaps spending more time with it one could get used to it, but would definitely some time to build up the muscle. Tremendous amount of lateral support is lost. Might be fine at longer lines, but 38 and up I don't think would work out too well.

[DefectiveDave]

With respect to lateral support, my current though process is that that very strong lateral support would offer the highest performance while weaker support would be more forgiving. Here's my justification in picture form:

 

 

This is an image of the cross-section of a ski, boot, and skier's lower leg. Imagine the skier is stacked and heading into the first wake. The skier is traveling into the screen and the boat is traveling down course to the right. This means the water is heading at the ski from the left in the direction of the arrow.

 

In the case with perfect support, the lateral angle of the shin with respect to the water explicitly defines the angle of the ski in this plane. However, in the other two cases this relationship is offset and the skier needs more shin angle (which I would argue translates into more lean angle overall) in order to accomplish the same amount of ski angle relative the water.

 

Therefore I would argue that for the perfect lateral support, the skier needs to lean less to accomplish the same amount of ski angle (though they must still deal with the same amount of load from the boat with less body angle). If that holds true, then the absolute performance of the ski should be higher as the ski can "bite" more angle with the skier in good stacked position. However, if the skier is out of position or unable to achieve as much lean then they won't be as ready to hold the load and the ski will not perform as well, hence it will be less forgiving.

 

Likewise, for the cases with less than perfect support. For a given amount of lean the ski will bite less angle and probably not accelerate as well (all other things being equal). However, this also means that there will be less load overall which will allow the skier more time or the ability to use less effort to lean into position.

 

I would think that there is probably an ideal amount of lateral support for every skier and it will probably vary depending on personal preference, skill level, and body differences. To generalize, novices may do better with less lateral support while more advanced skiers might do better with more support. However, I would think even the best and strongest skiers would need or want some lateral wiggle room. Of course, this assumes that this thought process holds.

 

Granted I am focusing on a very specific relationship in a very complicated system of complementary and competing dynamics, so these generalizations might not hold overall. Also, at this time I have no idea how or if this would apply to other stages of the course such as the pre-turn or turn. However, it is fun to think about these things. :-)

[dchristman]

@DefectiveDave I like you're pictures and description, but I would argue that strong lateral support doesn't necessarily offer "highest performance" but instead the "greatest potential leverage" which may or may not yield highest performance.

[disland]

@DefectiveDave looks reasonable in theory but the results dont agree. Too many world record performances in rubber binders to validate the theory

[Adam Caldwell]

The ankle being flexed to the extreme maximums both forward and back while the ski is on edge is one thing you must consider. This is where the height of the cuff comes into play for the discussion of lateral support. Typically, if the skiers weight is back on the ski, excessive lateral support from a high cuff will act to lever the forebody of the ski out of the water in the preturn, making it very hard to get the tip down moving into the apex. Additionally, if finishing a heelside turn, that high cuff being leveraged back, and laterally over the edge of the ski, will again lever the tip of the ski up out of the water and cause the skier to be more likely to fall further to the tail and stall the ski. The demands of lateral support for the front foot and back are also very different.

 

There are times when I don't want the angle of my shin to be dictating the roll angle of the ski. One is throughout the entire transition from edge to edge, I want to be able to un-weight the ski with the knees/ankles and roll my COM from one edge to the other without significantly disrupting the ski. If the skis' roll-angle is defined by shin angle alone, then I am not able to make this transition as early or as quickly.