Initiating the turn

[mwetskier]

@Wish - i'll say it one more time with the hope you can get it this time. The pics you describe as ' pulled out of context ' were in response to a question that horton asked that was / is *entirely* unrelated to any thing you and I were discussing. so . . . yeah . . . no worries . . .

[Lieutenant Dan]

As a struggling RFF, 28-off guy I have found this topic, and especially the @Wish point about "initiating the turn with the hips" revelational.

 

Studying the Regina video, it is clear (to me) that she initiates every turn with a turn of her hips. I can't wait to try this.

 

I also appreciate the comment that if you close your hips a bit ("a little less open" per @Horton ) on the on-side turn that you will get more power and speed. Will that also help me to get more angle out of the ball?

 

I am really struggling with shortening the line because I don't seem to get enough angle especially on my on-side. By the way, I am 57 yrs old 195 lbs. riding a 68" Orange Strada.

[ToddL]

BTW, great thread. So many different ways to describe what we feel and think about. Some words will click for a few and other words will click for other skiers. There are many pieces to the puzzle and each skier may find improvement while focusing on a different piece. Good stuff.

[Fehlindra]

2.05 in the motorcycle video explains the counter rotations benefits very well we don't talk seconds that we spend doing the counter part its just split of a second (at least on bike) we use it to force the gravity to change side quickly if you would initiate the lean just by using your own body mass it take longer time as he explains on video the same happens when you ski but there you just have your own body mass to shift (fit or unfit) on bike the result is a slow turn on ski the same slow turn you end up skiing flat and lose height on the boat and speed and you maybe not get the angle you wanted... side note on the film the counter steering he does to avoid the pothole moves the bike first to the right !!! before the pilot and bike start steer to the left in an left lean. so not failsafe back to waterskiing. In the video with CP if you watch it over and over again from the pull out using video 0.25 speed on youtube you hardly see when he drop the inside spray to move up on ski standing flat for a split of a second (there you see the spray go down) followed by angle just his legs or fot outwards cant tell !! but some body part get the ski on edge again (counter rotation) that helps him force the body mass into an inward lean quicker.

[paul413ski]

Started to use @wish 11 to 1 ritwtion with my hips lff finding more speed and control out to one ball gets my vote

[paul413ski]

Rotation sorry

[chris55]

I am a RFF and I went skiing last Friday for the second time of the year and 11 to 1 helped me too for my first gate even at 15off. So simple to think about it. Thank's @Wish

[sunvalleylaw]

deleted. Bottom line, thanks. I am LFF too and this helps. I really like the focus on the hips, after renewing my concept of stack. I will put my other comments in my own thread as they might have been off the topic.

[ScottScott]

I think a big thing that is seen in Regina's video is the difference between onside and offside. In the turn, the ski needs to get turned into the direction you are wanting to travel across the wake. On an onside turn you can accomplish that in the feet and legs, without a major turn of the hips, and the onside cross can be held stable with hips open to the boat by pointing the feet in the intended direction of travel. However, you CANT do that with your offside. The hips have to get turned to at least square to the intended direction of travel so the feet/legs can get lined up in that direction, and that position with hips square needs to be maintained to maintain angle and stability. Thats what makes the offside more difficult.

 

I think initiating a turn is "all of the above." Its a combination of a drop to the inside, and rotating hips to turn the ski and get the hips in line with the new direction. Then a pull away from the boat. Its the timing of all of those elements that is critical.

 

I think a counter rotation to initiate the turn in for the gate is dependent on a RFF or LFF. A RFF has an onside turn into the gate, and a counter rotation can work. A LFF has an offside turn into gate, and I don't think a counter rotation would work there.

[mwetskier]

@ScottScott -one difference between an on side turn and an off side turn is that the hips are naturally rotated open for on side and naturally rotated closed for off side. for that reason in an off side pull when we get our hips ' at least square to to the intended direction of travel ' as you say, the hips *are* counter rotated and there fore more *open* to the boat. the only skier i ever saw who could get there hips truly open to the boat in an offside pull was neilly ross -nobody else seems quite that flexible.

[ScottScott]

@mwetskier I agree to that, to an extent. However, I contend the natural position of the hips with one foot in front of the other is just slightly toward the back foot side. What I see in Reginas video, and in my own skiing, is that her hips (and what I can do, or get away with) on the onside is much more open (in relation to the natural position) than how far open "square" is on the offside (or what I can get away with.) For me, any degree open/past square on the offside has potentially catastrophic results, where I can just about face the boat onside. With onside you have much more freedom to move your back leg back toward the boat and turn ankles to compensate for hips being too far open. You can also redirect the way the ski is pointed without turning your hips at all in a turn.....not ideal, but you can get away with it.

[Fehlindra]

@ScottScott so closed hip at offsides, shall i twist my bindings more towards the right if im an LFF (clockwise) to ski more closed to the boat on my offsides ? i use to twist them to the left to open up more to the boat so thats wrong ?

 

[ScottScott]

1st off @Fehlindra , I am just in the beginning stages of completing the course, and while I have done a good bit of reading (the many fine threads on this site, and some other places) and watching videos, I am far from an experienced/advanced skier to be giving much in terms of instructions, more throwing out theories as much to welcome disagreement or to confirm maybe I'm on the right track on a learning process.

 

That said....I've seen some conversation about mounting the bindings as you say, but I think that would be an unusual and not recommended practice. I'm not sure you would find any recommendations to mounting bindings anything but straight in line with ski.

 

During my 1st real lesson that Ive gotten skiing, the one thing that got me over the hump I was on at the time (being unstable offside cross) was to keep hips square to the ski, or point the belly in the direction you are going (on your offside that may feel a little closed, certainly as apposed to the open you be on your onside.) I had previously been allowing my hips to open up toward the boat on my offside. As mwetskier said previously, it would take a lot of flexibility to open up hips toward the boat on the offside and be successful. The more you can keep the hips as close to natural (square or SLIGHTLY toward the back foot side) the better. That would be true for onside and offside. The point I was making regarding some inconsistency in the regina video is that while the one video showed her being pretty open to the boat, it was on her on side where you can get away with being more open, I don't think she was as open on her offside where it is more critical that the hips be square to the ski. The relevance to this thread is that the hip turn is significant in initiating the turn, again more critical to get hip turned on the offside. I think still desired on the onside, just not as critical.

[ScottScott]

 

This go pro view shows the relationship he has between his hips and the ski. It looks like they hardly move. I'm sure there is some hip initiation involved with the other elements of his turn, but the ski stays in pretty much the same alignment with the hips throughout.

[mwetskier]

@ScottScott -in the youtube settings menu choose 1/4 speed and watch it again with frequent pauses to see if you still think his ' ski stays in pretty much the same alignment with the hips throughout '.

[wtrskior]

@ScottScott you are Close but you do want to bring the trailing hip as far forward as humanly possible in offside wake crossing. Adam is pressing his trailing hip forward through that entire pass, which is why it looks like his lower body isn't moving. Limiting movement is efficient skiing!

 

An issue that is often viSable when trying this is pulling with arms and too much weight on the back foot.

 

Fundamentally you want your weight forward, with chest up and shoulders back, hips over knees over feet.

 

In order to achieve more weight for ward you need to bring that trailing hip as far fwd as possible - it will never be 100% in line with the leading hip when the ski is flat (glide) but very very close. This aligns with being tall, legs straight that Horton talks about.

 

Watch this video as well, kid is hips open to the boat with solid front foot pressure. Great offside

[ScottScott]

@wtrskior I'm not sure where the "disagree" comes from.....not sure we are really saying different things, just in a different way. And you are focused more on the weight forward aspect. Bringing trailing hip forward, to me, leads to the hips being more square to the ski. I can't really see with that overhead view exactly where his hips are at all times. However, there are certainly different approaches to things. My point regarding raginas videos were that she was pretty square on the offside, where she was more open on the onside. Many people, such as adam in his video would be more square to the ski on his onside and offside. My claim is that is because you can get away with being open on your onside, where you can't as much on offside.....thats a big part of what makes offside harder....

[ScottScott]

@mwetskier I did it.....and to me, while not locked into place I see it being pretty consistent. More so than regina did on her onside cross.

[ToddL]

What I see in Adam's video is that his knees are slightly separated for the on-side while his off-side he has his back knee tucked up and slammed against the side of his front knee. This is because in his off-side, he is working really hard to drive that back leg's hip forward. He starts that action coming into the buoy on the off-side and carries it into his wake crossing.

 

From the hips up the wake crossing look pretty identical. All of the stance asymmetry is managed in the legs, knees, and ankles.

[mwetskier]

@ScottScott -we often see what we want to see rather than what actually is. @ToddL nailed one of the most obvious indications of leading hip ' twist '. another indicator is the relative alignment between the ' pelvic girdle ' and the center line of the ski. if the alignment between his ski and his pelvis ' hardly moved ' they would form a consistent ' t ' shape for the entire run but they obviously don't.

 

when you know what to look for theres no way you can conclude his hips and the ski are any where near ' consistent ' through out the run. his shoulders naturally tend to open to the pull of the boat so that both arms can take load and he is actually working to square his hips with his *shoulders* as much as possible because this is the strongest body alignment you can have. his ankles knees and hip joints allow the upper and lower ' body separation ' that makes great skiers great ' -and old guys like me sore.