Water in oil! 94' MC PS190

[303Skier]

So last summer our beloved PS 190 showed it's age by surprising us with water in the oil. It was a milky consistency and was pretty bad. Boat runs great and pulled me into 38off 36MPH with perfect times. We drained the oil filled it back up and stored it for the winter. There were a few other symptoms that happened before we noticed the water in the oil. We thought the starter was going bad because it would hang and cause the battery terminals to get extremely HOT! Replaced starter and still had the same issues. Pulled spark plugs and noticed water in cylinders on the driver side. We also noticed rust on the spark plugs on that side.

 

What do you guys think? Exhaust Manifolds? Intake? Head gasket? @Jody_Seal @Horton @skier2788

[303Skier]

Any process of elimination would be great before we tear the engine completely apart!

[oldjeep]

I'd guess head gasket, but honestly no matter what it is you need to get the head off the rusty side to examine the damage.

[303Skier]

@oldjeep I really don't think tearing the engine apart is what I should do right from the go. I've heard the exhaust manifolds tend to go bad and leak on these Indmar 350's. Maybe if I determine the Exhaust manifolds are good I will move to the intake and then to the heads. The boat runs to good and doesn't have any smoke coming out the back to be a head gasket. What do you think?

 

BTW...It cranked up right away last night after sitting all winter.

[oldjeep]

What I think is that you have rust in the cylinders regardless of the cause and they likely need a hone at a minimum. Best to avoid trashing an engine if it isn't already trashed. Should have been broken down and looked at as soon as the water was found - not stored.

[303Skier]

@oldjeep I don't think there is rust in the cylinders. Took manifold off last night and everything looks pretty clean.

[oldjeep]

Huh? You had water in the oil and water in the cylinders on one side - what got rid of the rust that would have been in the cylinders. It sounds like you are trying to avoid an hours worth of work pulling the intake and head and I can't figure out why. But I tend to be a little more careful with engines.

[303Skier]

@oldjeep It's an old boat, I am not trying to dump $1,000 plus dollars into it having a machine shop hone and or bore the cylinders plus all my time. I want to find the root of the problem, fix it and put fresh fluids back in and run the old son of a B. It will clean the rust out running it. I'll plan to change the oil 4 or 5 times close together to make sure the water gets flushed out.

 

But if the consensus is to tear it down, I guess that's what needs to be done!

 

And really, you think it will take an hour to pull the head?

[oldjeep]

Honing the cylinders if neccessary requires a drill and a hone - any monkey can do it. It does however require you to pull the engine out and pull the pistons.

 

An hour was generous. On a carb engine I could do it in 15 minutes

[oldjeep]

If you have already run it then you could just do a compression and leak down test on it and hope for the best. (Assuming you don't get any water back in the cylinders)

[TallSkinnyGuy]

Have searched the MasterCraft Team Talk site? There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on that site.

[303Skier]

@oldjeep sounds like a ton of work!

 

Pull the head is probably one hour but pulling the engine is a totally different story. The boat has close to 2,000 hours on it, it could use a rebuild anyways. A little rust isn't going to hurt it. I think I need to figure out what is causing the water, fix it and run it. If something catastrophic happens then I'll get a new short block.

[303Skier]

@TallSkinnyGuy I don't want my name on a MC forum :D

 

I can go that rout but thought since I have a presence on this site, I'd start here.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

Ok. Whatever. You can search the forum without being a member. Could be that someone already posted the same question as you and got a bunch of answers that could be helpful to you.

[oldjeep]

It's not even a mastercraft question. It's just a 350 in a boat. Doesn't matter if it is in a mastercraft or a bayliner.

[Orlando76]

If there's rust in the cylinder, running it won't knock the rust out. The rust will chew the rings up. That's how I got my '93 SN.

[303Skier]

I'm not stupid, I already searched high and low. This seems to be a common issue and saw it on Team MC as well. I wanted to see if anyone on here had any logical/practical remedies before I tore a 21 year old boat apart/pulled the engine. Like I said, I want to fix the water issue not rebuild the engine.

 

Link

Link

 

The goal is to stop the water from getting into the cylinders, not pull my engine out.

[MISkier]

Your comment about the starter was intriguing and made me wonder if you have some effects of a hot spot in one of the cylinders. The basic premise is this:

 

1. Long term use in a raw water situation can lead to impurities (mud) collecting within the cooling system of the engine. The impurities cake up and harden over time, due to the heat/cooling cycles of the engine, and essentially become concrete-like. This, in turn, blocks the flow of water through that portion of the engine.

2. Reduced water flow through a segment of the engine results in a small area (basically one cylinder) overheating. It's not enough to trigger an overheat condition at the temperature gauge, but it is enough to damage the cylinder. It may cause a small crack in the cylinder and deform/melt the piston.

3. The deformed piston results in a mini-seizing event within the cylinder that causes your starter to bind and requires it to draw more amperage to overcome the load, thereby generating heat at the battery.

4. The cracked cylinder begins leaking water, which you see in your oil.

 

The engine will probably run and run fairly well with this condition, but it won't do so forever.

 

This is all speculation. A compression test may tell you if it is something to pursue further.

[Horton]

@303Skier please do not post long links

[DW]

@303: My 50 cent analysis, starter issue was due to hydrolocking. As you note, water getting in one or more cylinders potentially due to: crack in cylinder head, block or exhaust manifold, bad head gasket, or for some reason the water level in the exhaust pipes when sitting has risen a fair amount and as engine cools after running it gets sucked up through open exhaust valve and in to cylinder. Leak down test or even compressed air in cylinder(s) that have water will allow you to hear where the breach is, use a stethoscope to listen and do it in a quiet area. From there you will know what you have to do. If the exhaust manifold is the issue, the backside or the exhaust valves will have rust on them. You can run a simple pressure test on them and even the whole cooling system to determine breach, you will need to make an adapter for the stat housing to adapt a typical car testor.

 

If you keep trying to start a hydrolocked engine, which never fixes itself, you run the risk of additional serious damage such as bent connecting rods, damaging the rod bearings and / or a cracked piston. Once any of those happen, catastrophic failure is imminent. The reason it started after sitting for an extended time is the water slowly drained down in the oil pan allowing the engine to spin over.

[wtrskr]

I'd start with a compression test if you have a gauge. Compression would still be good if it is just an exhaust manifold leaking water into the cylinders.

 

I had a blown head gasket on this very same boat a few years back. It didn't cost a lot but the time did add up on the job. Water never made it to the oil in my case and the head wasn't warped - just one little area of the gasket that gave out between two cylinders. The tear down should be pretty quick, but it can be a little time consuming putting it back together because you have to get the valves tightened down the correct amount, get the timing right, make sure everything is sealed properly, etc.

[wtrskr]

MISkier, don't mean to hijack the thread, but quick question. Lets say you have impurities that build up and block the water flow as you describe, can you do anything to fix that issue? Run something through the block to break down the sediment?

[MISkier]

@wtrskr, I am not sure what you can do to remove the current deposits that have already hardened. But, running the boat with clean water using a fake-a-lake immediately after leaving the lake can help flush it out and maybe prevent the build up. You would need to do it while everything is still hot and flowing.

 

It also depends on how clean the lake water is. If it is muddy, cloudy, etc., you would want to flush the boat with good water as much as possible. If the water is relatively clear and deep enough that your prop wash is not churning up the bottom or sediment, your risk may be lower.

[Edbrazil]

I'd want Jody Seal to chime in about this before doing anything. Funny things can happen

in engines. Back in the 1970's, we had transmission fluid getting into the oil. Changed

the transmission out twice before it was fixed. One supposed engine guy said that wasn't

possible. But it was.

[wtrskr]

Thx. I asked because I'm wondering if my blown head gasket had occurred due to that issue back in the day. After I had put everything back together with the new gasket I noticed one real hot spot on the intake manifold near the cylinder that had the issue. It was hot to the point that it melted a plastic tube that wires go through. Some told me that it was normal it to get real hot in that specific spot, others told me that it shouldn't. It's been fine since then - just thinking about preventative action if appropriate.

[EricKelley]

303 I feel for you, but if you do not commit to fixing all the issues with the engine, you will not have a reliable engine. Water in the engine and oil causes a cascade of damages that really requires a full rebuild.

I believe you are looking for a temporary fix, and that's alright, if you understand that it is a temporary fix. You can pull the heads and if they are the culprit, it will be very obvious. To do head gaskets right the deck needs to be resurfaced, which means that the block needs to be disassembled.

There are quite a few things that you can do pulling the heads that will grenade the engine so if you have a buddy that is experienced with this, have them look over your shoulder.

As far as value of the boat, see if you can find a good takeout engine. I think as far as enjoying your boat this would be your best cheapest option without spending too much on it. Good luck.

[Jody_Seal]

I am assuming this a chebby engine. What year? Water in oil and cylinders kinda point to head gasket, cracked head or if it is a vortec (96-current) possible intake manifold gasket. Has engine seen salt water service? Total service hours? Lots to consider, is it carbed or efi? If a customer brought me the engine I would do full compression diagnostics then start pulling down the engine and start inspecting the critical parts from top to bottom. Depending on tear down will dictate component repair/replacement or a full engine rebuild or replacement. I did not read the full discussion just the first question so please keep in mind there are some crazy things with these boats in the past that others have experienced that make one scratch your head and go hmm...

[keithh2oskier]

@Jody_Seal I think he said its a 94 PS 190 so it would be an EFI Chevy 350.

[JAG]

I agree with DW, starter issue due to hydrolocking.

 

I used to have a '95 Four Winns with a 4.3 V6. One day, the engine overheated suddenly and I shut it down and paddled into shore. I replaced the damaged impeller but noticed that the engine didn't sound the same when turned over and when running, would start to idle funny and stall.

 

Trying to re-start, the starter would act as if it was binding up on something and eventually, it cracked one of the starter mounting bosses on the block.

 

Long story short. I pulled the heads and had them magnafluxed. Although it was invisible to the naked eye, one of the heads had a microscopic crack that was allowing raw water into #3 cylinder and in short order, hydrolocking the engine.

 

I must say, a Vortec Chevy engine is one reliable, bulletproof SOB, because after replacing both heads and re-welding the starter boss, the engine is still going strong. (I sold it to a buddy with full disclosure).

 

Lesson learned? I replace the impeller on my Inboard every year, whether it was 10 hours or 100.

[Jody_Seal]

Seen a couple hydro locked engines that were put up for the winter with out correcting the issue. Once the engine sets for a few months with water in the cylinders it is pretty much toast. Yea there will be some fool that will tell ya penetrating oil and work it loose.... That's funny. a hydro locked engine needs be relieved asap and then fired up after problem is identified and rectified . I have not seen a hydro locked engine with water in oil and cylinders, again not out of the question just have not experienced it.

[303Skier]

@Jody_Seal It's a 94' PS190 with 350 Chevy, velvet drive/power slot, EFI and has approx 1,300 hours on it. We were having cranking issues with it early last summer. When the boat would get hot we'd have to crack throttle open 80% to get it to run, then back down on the throttle and it would finally idle right. We replaced the IAC and seemed to help but not 100%. We still had hot cranking issues. Then after battling with the cranking issues it started hydro locking. Thought it was the starter so we replaced it and still same issue. Then after that we noticed the water in the oil.

 

After we noticed the water in oil we drained it and filled with fresh oil. Ran it again and after a few days noticed the water in oil again. We then changed the oil cranked it out of the water for a short time, winterized it and stored it.

 

Just a few days ago we pulled it into the garage and it cranked right up and sounded strong! Pulled the dog house and floor. Once we got the doghouse out we noticed a dime sized hole in the driver side silent master/fiberglass muffler. We would take on water so this was where it was coming from. Not sure if that would cause water in oil unless it got up over the riser and went down? We then took the spark plugs out on the drivers side and they looked a little rusty on the tips. Definitely looked like they had been in contact with water. Then we took the driver side exhaust manifold off and honestly the valves and bores didn't look that bad. I was expecting to see tons of rust. A few gallies looked like they had some white rivers running through them but not sure if that was caused by water? This is where we stopped and haven't touched the boat since.

 

I'm thinking about doing a compression check next but not sure that will do me much good when I can't get the engine running to heat it up to operating temps. I could put it back together and do it? What are thoughts on that? If compression check is good, I'll probably start tearing it down!

 

What would a short block cost?

[wtrskr]

I wouldn't jump to the replacing the engine option just yet. The fact that water made it to the oil is more concerning than if it just made it to the cylinders but I'm not sure that completely rules out that it could be something relatively minor.

 

Are the flaps still there on the back of your exhaust pipes looking at the back of your boat? I just want to rule out the possibility that you have stopped quickly and water has been forced the wrong direction up through your exhaust manifold and to your cylinders. The flaps prevent that.

 

So at this point you just have the exhaust manifolds off? I'd still do a compression test, and without putting the manifold back on. First pull the fuse for the fuel pump so you aren't kicking gas into the chambers as you crank. Make sure the battery is charged when you do the test, maybe even connect the battery to a charger during. Before digging into things it would be nice to know if one or more cylinders have low compression.

 

If you decide to take off the intake manifold and head, it might be helpful to fist turn the engine by hand to get the #1 piston at top dead center of the compression stroke. There is a mark on the harmonic balancer for TDC. After that, don't turn the engine over at all until the end. Mark where the distributor is lined up at present. Carefully keep track of where every part came from as you disassemble.

 

Dig in and see what you find out.

 

Oh, and you can use JB weld or something similar to patch the hole in the silent master muffler.

[Beastmode]

I have a boat repair business and a 94 PS also that I just had to replace the heads for the same reason.

 

You have a cracked head on the side that is getting water in the cylinders. Also that is what was causing the start issue. water does not compress and hydro locks the motor. that is how I found out that i had water in my cylinder.

 

the water chambers for the block and heads were impacted with crud.

I didnt pull the motor, because my cylinders were good and I still had decent compression. I bought a set of used rebuilt heads and flushed out the water chambers of the block and installed the new heads and it runs great.