Canting my bindings on the ski helped me overcome years of problems

[Fehlindra]

Have changed skies bindings like every year moved the fin wing to all places that even Jay dont mention in his book, but my problem to get the ski start initiate the offside turn and finishing the offside remain until yesterday! Tested wedges before under the front boot in an attempt to get the ski to turn. Tested cant sideways and tilt forward nothing helped.

 

Have an outward curvature of the legs so i can get an tennis boll between my knees in height of my kneecaps (bowlegged) that was my problem that prevented me from initiate and finish my offside OMG all those years without to know it was my leg that caused that problem, its prob more ppl out there that are bowed legged that dont know what negative effects its causing for us as water skiers.

 

Instead of just using wedge on front binding ill also added wedges to my rear. Im an LFF so before i had tried to add the wedge on the right side in the belief that when my front binding stays level with the water when standing flat it get the result the ski wanna turn to the right little more and help me initiate and finish my offside turn - WRONG my posture remained the same or worse i think i spread my legs even more apart and that pushed me further back on my rear leg riding the back of the ski

.

 

But now i mounted wedges under both front and rear binding this time left side on front binding and right side on my rear binding that corrected my posture so now im standing tall and on my front foot, feels like having something pushing my ass forward and that i have a spear in a good manner down and up my spine. 7 degrees cant on both bindings today i got another one that i shall test tomorrow that give me some more degrees to see whats best.

 

Using the new Rossi settings at my 67" Time to feel the true power of the VAPOR

[Than_Bogan]

It's comforting that there are people trying way crazier stuff than I...

 

But certainly interesting. Why so much added height instead of just creating the desired cant angle?

[Fehlindra]

on the rear i wanted the boot elevated aswell so the yellow is an 0,5 inch higher havent tested them yet but the brown ones that are mounted on the front binding are level with the ski on one of the sides both are 7 degrees on this pic can you see how it looks like on the front binding but mounted on the wrong side (Rside)!!!! so dont mount on that side if you wanna try and have bowed leggs!

[ozski]

Get patent advice... quick! I can see another adjustment creeping in here, just what we need! :)

[Horton]

Wow.

[skibug]

I don't get the logic behind this; but hey, if it works...

[Edbrazil]

That sure is a LOT of canting in the pictures.

 

Something they did in snow skiing many years back. Warren Witherell was also a noted

snow skier and coach, and one of his big issues was canting boots. Back when he wrote

the milestone book: "How The Racers Ski". These days, with modern boots and skis, I

don't think that canting is done much, but maybe so for elite-level snow ski racers.

Something I tried with my water ski jumping skis was offsetting the plate bindings about

1/4" toward the inside edge. Don't remember if I stayed with it. Also turned my rear SL

ski binding a bit, similar to what trickers do, but a whole lot less. I noted that Witherell

had done it. I did it because of ankle injury.

[skibug]

Primarily I was commenting on the height off the ski. I should have been more specific. I understand the whole canting thing; and, I think jamie beauchesne used to do it with washers. This just seems quite extreme; but, if it works, rock on. One word of caution would be that the hardware (screws) may not be designed to take that type of bending moment through the forces imparted from the ski. The rubber wedges will not provide much lateral stability through the threaded region of the screw that is not engaged.

[Drago]

@Edbrazil there is still canting in alpine. Most use the witherall duct tape to test, then grind soles

[Fehlindra]

think bowed legs is the worst as an waterskier cos you tend to ski more and more back on the ski when you get the power from boat down your hips thru your legs, that forces the leg to bends more outwards until a dolphin can jump between your legs, the more you bend them the more you gonna sit and ski only on you rear. @skibrain knock kneed maybe the best, who knows maybe better than normal aligned legs!

 

its only the rear thats raised 0,5 inch so i can get my rear hip more over the front of the ski both are the same 7 degree.

 

the hardware screws that are stainless from HD store (expensive cry) pushes binding plate down quite hard so i think its ok.

 

i think all that have an tendency to ride the tail and have knees that arent tucked inwards center line ski and together 100% on the water should try this

 

 

[JAG]

My snows skis have slightly elevated boots that (I'm told) allow for more leverage in the turns. This has me thinking, would it be advantageous to just raise the bindings 1/8", 1/4", etc? My offside turn is terrible (poor angle, RFF), so any tips would be appreciated.

RPG

[Than_Bogan]

Any chance you could post video of you skiing on it? It's so outside the box that I really just can't picture it. I'd like to see what it actually does to your body mechanics. Preferably, I'd love to see a side-by-side with and without it.

[skialex]

@Fehlindra Please post video B)

If I were you I would try insoles and cant the cuff by changing the position of the hinges, you can do that by adding small metallic plates with holes on them to the sides of the shell and move the hinges, one higher and the other lower than they are. Maybe work the shell with a heat gun as well.

Don't forget the video!

[Fehlindra]

Its better to show on dock standing on the ski my stance mounted vs unmounted btw also using those in my binding one or two

so my skin goes free from the plastic edges of the hard shell, all i can say that it an HUGE improvement of my stance standing tall like CP and my legs dont drops to the outside like they did before and falling back on the rear leg when skied

[Edbrazil]

Note that in snow skiing, there are rules up the gazoo. Such at "stand height", which

regulates how high the boots can be off the ski. Nothing like that in water skiing, and I

hope that we never go there.

[liquid d]

I know a tricker that was pretty good bow-legged.

[gavski]

I have experimented a lot with canting - both on snow and water. My snow ski boots have been professionally canted by Harald Hard. I applied the same ideas/ method to my supershell and it was remarkable - but it was in completely the opposite side to the pictures above....i am also LFF. i can't get my head around the modifications made above...i my mind, they are the wrong way round...i also have slightly bowed legs...even those with straight legs - the lower leg leg still has a slighlty outward bias, which means that in a plastic boot, there is pressure applied to the outside of the shell - even when standing upright....this trasnlates to a strong onside and a weak offside turn...

I have subsequently removed all of my canting etc and cut down my shell. My turns are smoother, more balanced and predictable....

[thager]

I like the idea of canting as I am very bowlegged. However, I am not a fan of the extra height shown. I would go with the 7 degree cant in it's thinnest form.

[gavski]

The ultimate aim with boot alignment is to make the ski run flat/ neutral when you stand on it.

There are 2 parts to this process:

1. Get the foot in a neutral position - This ensures that the knee tracks over the 2nd toe when bent...i.e. directly fore/ aft...this is ususlly achieved with a footbed.

2. Get the 'cuff' of the boot to match the lower leg/shin. Several ways to do this, but best is canting the boot - 99% of the time this will be a wedge that rolls your foot outwards....

 

Other options include cutting down the height of the plastic boot in order to reduce/remove the pressure of the outside of the calf/shin on the side of the shell...

 

Unlike snow skiing, you don't want to be too far from the top of the ski as this creates too much leverage. You don't want a boot that is too high up your leg = too much leverage. You don't want a boot too stiff laterally = too much leverage....too much leverage creates 'fine' control issues, especially at critical moments in the turn = a ski that is unpredictable...

 

Look at the top 2 skiers in the world - one has a rubber boot + rtp, the other has power-shells...the power-shells are as close to a rubber boot as you can get - in terms of flex fore/aft and lateral...

 

I like my supershell...but that is only because my ankle is f****ed and i can no longer use a rubber/ vapor boot...

 

[Fehlindra]

@gavski hope i dint misled you the picture from the front that had wedge on the right side was before i did it correct !!! so guys dont mount it on the right side of the binding its wrong.

@thager yee try out the 7 degree plastic ones i cant say for sure if i feel any differ if using the 7 degree thats little higher than the one that is ending direct on the ski, maybe i get tucked in more behind my front leg with the low profile and get the rear hip more forward with the yellow higher piece haven't skied enough to decide whats best for me.

[Fehlindra]

OK so here comes the pictures side by side pic 1/3 no wedge pic 2/3 wedges pic 3/3 no wedges worst scenario there the legs pushes outwards and ill ending up skiing on my rear like 100 %

 

[Fehlindra]

More pictures from the side 1/2 is without wedge (more butt heavy raiding tail) 2/2 with wedge feels like something pushes me forward over the front binding.

[Fehlindra]

And the guy with some irregular bodyparts

 

[gavski]

Canting the boot should increase/ improve your ability to balance... If you have a wedge under your little toe, you are effectively rolling your foot inwards....this is not how your foot works and is contrary to how we balance or how our joints move...just look at the heals on your shoes....you 'should' have slightly more wear on the outside part of the heal.

Try this experiment..

1. no wedge...balance on one leg in dront of a mirror..then try single leg squats - only need to go down about 6inches. Note how your knee and feet move.

2. Place a wedge (magazine) under the inside half of your foot (big toe side). Squat and look at knee etc.

3. Place wedge on outside (little toe side)...squat etc...

 

I guarantee that your balance will be compromised with the wedge on the outside of your foot...your knee will track inwards, your upper body will be forced to make large compensatory movements in order to balance...

 

The key is to find out how much angle you need....my left leg is straight, but i needed a 1.5deg cant. My right leg is slightly bowed - needed 0deg wedge...therefore, if i was rff, i wouldnt need a wedge....

 

Remember, it is all about the ski....not your legs....

 

You can get your hips to move forward by installing a heal lift...i have a 3mm plate under my front heal...

 

Try a normal squat with both feet flat. Note how far down you can comfortably go down before falling backwards...try with a magazine under your toes...then try with it under you heal....also note how your hips/ knee & ankle bend....

 

Again - i guarantee that you will have greater range of movement with a heal raise AND, your hips drop down and not backwards when you squat....

 

[Drago]

I agree with @gavski . You're going to break your ankle with the wedge on the outside . Except I would not recommend heel lifts unless you can't bend your ankle at all

[wtrskior]

@Fehlindra hey, its obvious youre am outside the box thinker but what's with all the neo shorts?? Should at least be neon!

[Fehlindra]

ill just take my birthday suit next time those parts are not defect

 

[UWSkier]

This has given me an idea. 6" platform disco bindings to help get the ski around those balls at ultra shortline.

[liquid d]

@UWSkier please video first set.

[Fehlindra]

Hey guys this was just a thing i wanted to share with you its not an new religion but it works like magic for me.

[Than_Bogan]

Super-Interesting! Thanks for sharing!

 

Would still love to see video. The static shots don't really tell me much.

[thager]

@Fehlindra I wish my legs were as straight as yours!

[UWSkier]

For knee and ankle tracking, I get it. I'm knock-kneed and pronate my ankles. I wear arch supports to prevent this. I imagine bow-legged folks tend to supinate so it makes sense that adding something to force the ankle to roll more neutral could help with tracking issues.

 

What is kindof strange though is that you say it affects your ability to initiate an offside turn. All else being equal, you have two feet and I'd imagine they both supinate in equal and opposite directions. Therefore the net effect on force introduction to the ski should remain the same with and without the wedges assuming they're also of equal sizes/stiffnesses, etc.

 

Maybe it's because you're front hardshell and rear softshell (now I want tacos). Front is having more input to rotational force than the rear? Even if that's the case, I'd think having a wedge on the outside of your foot would have the opposite effect to turn initiation.

[Fehlindra]

@UWSkier copy paste yee id thought so too having a wedge on the outside of your foot would have the opposite effect to turn initiation and turn but apparently it was the way to go 7 degree wedges on the outside of both the front and rear boot. dont know if its my bowlegged issue that improve the effect of being pushed forward like locked in a pride tall stance cos it i seems impossible to lose that hip forward COM over front binding position, wonder if everyone can get that effect by canting as i did?

@thager can you be our next crash test dummy, naa i dont wanna urge people to do new things that seems to work =) edit: its not an new thing as many here stated before

 

 

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@fehlindra still running your wedges or have you returned to a neutral binder?

 

Slalom is interesting with the feet on midline and offset front to rear and connected to each other!

 

With lower limb alignment you can look at wedging as accommodation for a rigid misalignment, or corrective attempting to force the limb into a new alignment. So in one theory with "bowing" lower legs you could apply wedges to position the boot to accommodate your stance - in this way when you were standing on the ski the bindings/cuffs wouldn't transfer unwanted forces from the misalignment to the ski.

 

The other option would be to place the binding wedged to attempt to use that wedge to realign the foot by way of the binding.

 

Being connected to each other in slalom makes both possible in theory as the ski provides a torsional connection between the front and rear (atleast in a hardshell)

 

You could also look at it from the direction of the ski and perhaps consider which "edge" you have more or less ability to apply front foot pressure to the ski with. And lift the rear to match. Lots of options - which is why i'm curious how this is working for you.

[OldboyII]

Do not see misalignment in @Fehlindra 's setup.

The basic idea of alignment is to make axis of the cuff go parallel to axis of lower leg so it will not be a lateral pressure to any side of the cuff from inside.

Felhindra is LFF and inclines boot cuff to the direction where shinbone goes (up to the left). IMO it is correct.

Still did not get why such a height? As properly noted above Alpine boots lifted in order to prevent contact boot-snow on extreme angles, but this is not a case with water slalom?

Though generally alignment starts with custom insole and sole wedging after.

 

Added. Got it! He is getting 1cm more wider at the turn ))

 

[Fehlindra]

@BraceMaker on request from ppl in my skiclub i tested switch back to normal without wedges but that dint work at all,,, im doomed to have those things mounted. @OldboyII with height comes angle i must have that 7-8 degree to lock my knees together and bring my hips in an forward position as you see on the pictures else i fall back in an sitting position when my legs getting loaded in the course it can be in the turn or in the pulling phaze, btw modded my reflex supershell to get rid of that "lagg" on my offside i rly love my supershell, now its screaming edge control zero lagg or just the padding in the liner that gives way a tiny bit

 

[gavski]

Interesting......i have gone COMPLETELY the opposite direction to try and soften out the supershell laterally..

Excuse the tablecloth..not my house...

It has definitely made the ski less grabby and more forgiving. Feels alot like a vapor boot now..

 

I have also added a small piece of foam to the outside of my liner just above the toes in order to clamp down my big toe....this is 'secret' modification handed down from Andy Mapple through Glenn Campbell..the idea is that if you can stop your big toe from lifting, you will have much better fore/aft control/ balance...don't think this is too much of a problem in rubber bindings as the rubber holds your toes down..

 

[Deanoski]

@gavski Did you also. Flatten the boot out it looks flate e than stock

[thager]

Extremely bow legged, so I tried canting my front binding for about 3 weeks. Absolutely did not work for me even on a 16 Vapor. Back to normal now and all is good!

[Fehlindra]

@thager try both next time if you wanna try it again and as u are extreme bowed so go for 7 degree or more as i did when your buddies in the boat don't say that they cant shoot an football between your legs anymore then you are all fine. the effect of just cant one side front or back is that you keep the same stance nothing change you just move it towards one side in your case you canted the front so you leaned the binding towards your offside more and it was probably harder to initiate and complete the offside turn cos the ski had less angle than before on the offside

[gavski]

@Deanoski - nope, he sole of the boot is unchanged. I have, however, refitted the white horeshoe to stabilize the sole of the boot.

 

[Wish]

@gavski how did u get the release to work properly with heal raised. Can they realease adjust in that direction? If so how? Or did you relocate the block on the boot to a lower position that the realease locks on to?

[Fehlindra]

I tested heel raise on my supershell the release and heelcup was mounted on the 0.27 inch pastic cutting board but think i need to have raise on both front and back to avoid lose the connection between the front and rear hip (can i say so lol) what hapend was that my front leg was more leaned forward as intended but i lost pressure on my front foot cos rear hip was not level with front hip

 

[jimbrake]

I can't believe I missed this thread because I cant my front binding for the same reason, but WAY less angle - I just have some thin washers under the right side of my front binding to move my front knee a little left of center. I'm LFF too and if I don't cant up the right side a little my ski will not want to edge left and will dive hard on the right edge. When I explain this to other skiers I usually get a WTF look or a "son, I don't understand a word you just said" look. @Fehlindra that is some severe canting, but hey, if it works, it works.

[Fehlindra]

@jimbrake i asume you are bowed as well as i tried to explain i did the same as you in the begining cant up the right side to get an better offside but it doesn't help u get rid of the problem (the football between your legs at least in my case) ill use 25 mm plastic construction wedges on both front and rear that gives 7-8 degree on each leg that helps me stand better on the ski with my knee tilted inwards to the other knee more like knocked knee. as LFF you place the wedge on the leftside on your front boot and right side on your rear boot, when you archived your desired stance and you still wanna improve your offside with the same improved stance you have. lower the degree of angle on your front foot but increase it with the same degree on your rear boot. but before ill would do that try out the stance you got of canting both front and rear and maybe do some wing/boot movment.

[jimbrake]

@fehlindra - my stance "issue" is much smaller apparently. Not bowed. My left knee actually needs to be a little more left than where it is if I don't cant. Essentially, I need a little more pressure on the left edge of the ski, so I lift the right side of the binding slightly. That pushes my knee left and, voila, symmetry in edge roll.