Than's RTP transition log

[Razorskier1]

all these years so many people have asked me why I don't wear double high boots . . . and now you are all coming my way instead!

[Wish]

Double boots are so ski companies can sell 2 instead of one ;)

[Intheday]

Pokemon Go, yoyos, Loom bands, vinyl records to CD to vinyl again. The trend is your friend. I think for the really talented and the beginner it doesn't matter but for middle ground each could help you overcome a weakness

 

PS double boots look cool but you can't beach start unless you are in a RTP and that looks cooler

[TallSkinnyGuy]

One of my ski partners uses a RTP and I am always envious of how much more gracefully he can enter the water off the platform than those of us in double boots. This envy has tempted me to try it.

[Than_Bogan]

Set #10. I managed to mount the HO RTP. I think I like it considerably better, although it was putting my foot to sleep a little. I think that will pass as I break it in, but the sense of security I had was much improved.

I (accidentally) ran a few slow -28s which helped build comfort, and then I went back to 55.0kph and ran a good -28 and (my first) good -32. At this point I felt comfortable to try -35 for the first time. I didn't come close to running it, but it also didn't feel impossible or dangerous. So maybe I'm a few sets away from completing a -35 with an RTP? Time will tell.

 

I just did one set because tomorrow I am skiing with @AdamCord himself!!

[ALPJr]

@Than_Bogan what front boot are you running?

[Than_Bogan]

Currently the D3 TFactor.

[eleeski]

Consider removing the overlay from the toe kicker. This makes the feel a bit more secure as the rubber can stretch easier to conform to your foot better and give more even pressure across all your foot. You are trading off some support for this but you're already giving up a lot of support by losing the rear boot. It might trick you into feeling that you have support while actually you are getting the desired mobility.

 

Besides, the overlays just seem to be for advertising not performance. Wasted weight.

 

Eric

[Wish]

There is something to what @eleeski is saying. The rubber toe kicker I stole off an old slalom is very thin. Thin tough top layer and thin padding layer. Far more stretchy then anything I have found. No idea the brand or manufacture but have had it for 20yrs. Anyway, it seems to be really good, snug and as mentioned conforms to my foot. Ran my first 32 this morning. Many attempts. But it was kinda like a switch. All of the sudden "click" and it was easy and the pace and timing were perfect. Then the very next pass..trash. So very inconsistent currently but will say I had the best exit out of 2 ball (on side) of my life on one of the passes I missed. I'd put up video but the iPhone 6s and Wakeye do not play well together. Lots of potential and the leaning curve is still moving along which makes it fun.

[Than_Bogan]

Set #11. Hopped out of a car and took some passes, so wasn't gonna be great in any case. But gave Cord a chance to see some of what I'm doing wrong. Ran some -28s, but had a ton of trouble figuring out the gate timing with site/RTP/technique unfamiliarity.

 

Key discussion between sets was that I was still waaaay back on the ski during move up for the gate. Better than Set #1 by a mile, but still just not over the ski.

 

Set #12. Yay! I finally found the comfort level to actually implement (some of) what Cord was telling me, and get my gate back to feeling non-horrible. This eventually led to my first super-easy -32 since moving to RTP. I tried a couple of -35s, which I'm clearly not quite ready for yet.

 

Cord reminded me that it was roughly 20 sets before he got back to his previous performances and quite a few beyond that where he started to feel some advantage. And he's obviously more coordinated than I am, so there's a ways to go yet.

 

All of the above was on the HO RTP, which I am sort of liking but certainly not 100% happy with. I still had some movement, especially when I cranked an off-balance onside turn.

 

One disappointing note was the Radar ARTP that I was planning to try out is on a sofffft plastic frame that I don't think I could trust for serious slaloming. I'll be getting in touch with them to see if I just selected some wrong option or what. Additionally, the holes in the ARTP don't match any of the combinations of holes that I now have available on my G10 plate. (Holy crap are these things incompatible with either other!) Good thing I ordered some more press-in nuts! (See other thread where I figured out what those are.)

[Chef23]

I think you always have some movement you just get used to it.

[The_MS]

At what point do you give it up and enjoy the rest of the summer?

[Waternut]

@Than_Bogan That's the feather frame version. They do make an aluminum frame or at least they used to. I never cared because the feather is plenty strong. I slotted mine and continued using it for 3-4 years before replacing it with another feather when the first one finally started tearing. Radar makes quite a few of their standard boots with that style of frame.

[Howa1500]

@Than_Bogan have you tried the D3 leverage RTP?

[Wish]

Says the man with a very recent convert at their site.....our did you convince @OTF otherwise?

 

@MS that's the thing. The learning curve and success rate at trying this is much faster then an increase of a half a buoy improvement each year..if that. So actually having fun and a bit in disbelief that it is that hard of a transition and very stoked to have run 32. If I did not think there was merit, I would not try. Cord told me the same thing months ago..20 sets or so. But looking at video of this mornings 32 and 32s on my double boots it is obvious how much easier and more natural it is to stand tall, stack tall with COM moving forward always. What is hard is keeping from going to the back foot. I had no idea how much (prob less then half) weight I put on my back foot. Wednesday it is back to the 3.4 Denali, double boots and some short line to see the difference. My guess is I will feel like I am dragging an anchor in comparison.

[The_MS]

I tried to go back years ago and gave up after 2 sets. I get that some of the best skiers in the world (GOAT) and Nate are toe plate skiers but not all of us are GOAT and Nate.

[Horton]

@MS it kills me when you are the voice of reason.

[Horton]

@Wish you have been on a kicker for 20 sets and your scores are still lagging?

[lcgordon]

Put courses in without permits. Just like skateboarders skating the streets.

[Wish]

@Horton no. I think I've skied in the course 4 times now and started with hardly being able to get up on it. Plus fin and boot adjustments. And I've not lengthened the line or slowed the boat. It's been at 32 since my first attempt to just get up with it. @MS your assertion is that we have to be as good as Nate and Andy to use a toe kick. My assertion and backed up with some science around GUT is the toe kick gives them the ability to be that good and certainly in Nates case I believe it makes his 39s look the same as 35s and 32s. How often is it asked .."what line length is he at?..when watching him. Just depends on how you look at it.

[The_MS]

No, I mean that they are that good because they are Nate and GOAT. They could set records with or without toe plates. Both used rubber boots for most of their lives but we dont all switch back to rubber.

[Horton]

Ok @Wish I will bite. Why or how does a RTP allow the skier to be be so much farther forward?

[Than_Bogan]

To be clear, I am not advocating for RTP. I am merely chronicling my experience because many seem interested in trying this. So far, mine is a cautionary tale. But perhaps that will change.

[Wish]

@MS I think Nate would not set a record on double boots. Prob take several buoys off his average. The ability for him to move forward would be limited. You yourself use a rear Whiley...more mobility to flex rear ankle and depending on how loose a fit ..heal lift as well. My rear heal on my rear boot has always been raised higher then the toe since 2001 and am able to get my heal off the bottom a little. Basically compensating for what should happen. If a rear boot is loose and the heal can come up freely I suspect it's ok but prob not enough. @Horton that is an answer I suspect you already know. Just test it standing in your living room. Both feet in slalom position with even weight on both, stand and stay tall . Do nothing but lift rear heal and see what happens..then keep lifting it and see what happens. Now do it with back heal down or even an inch off the ground but no more and do the same. Pay attention to your ankles, knees, hips, and that tall COM and where it ends up in comparison. Now which will get that ski to be flatter planed (faster) on the water with less weight on the tail (drag if more) making the ski more efficient. And which will put the most of you over the most supportive part of the ski? Less drag less loads.

[Horton]

@Wish I can do all that in a loose rear Wiley or a Reflex R Style or even a loose Radar Vapor boot

[Wish]

Did not say you couldn't...

 

But many dont I suspect and I bet you get better ROM and more mobility with RTP

[The_MS]

When I tried to make a switch from the HO Approach/Wiley rear to double Vapors, I could not keep the tip of my ski down. I was bummed that I couldn't make the Vapor work and kept using the Approach. When I couldn't find any more Approach boots, I called @eddie_roberts_jr and told him about my issue. He told me to just use a front Vapor and keep the rear Wiley. It feels like I never skipped a beat.

[Wish]

Dint say you couldn't.. was for @Horton

 

@OB1 not sure 4 sets is that long considering the drastic change. If I did not see potential, I would stop. Fast learning curve is fun. I've got all winter to play with it but it's been so intriguing that I've kept with it. Wasn't the original plan. Back on my doubles for the next few weeks to see the purple.

[Wish]

Nah.. Tried it a month ago for like a half a set but never even gave it a chance.

[ISP6ball]

"I think Nate would not set a record on double boots."

 

I don't think I wouldn't eliminate one of the best talents on the water, by that statement.

[Wish]

Yes yes he could run 39 on a 2x4. And the best cyclist could win the TourDeFrance on my old 10 speed bike. I think we sometimes think the elite athletes can do anything with less. But they are all on the edge of not making it that next go in competition and it's still anyone's game between them. Sure Nate may hold more titles and continue on his winning streak but if you really think he can switch at any point to double boots and just carry on as usual....well, a bit of a stretch I think for him or anyone for that matter. Just my opinion. But I also think you will find more and more coming into the pro ranks with RTPs or something very close.

[Wish]

@Bruce55 You're a better skier then I am I guess. It's taking me longer. Not sure how that is a big boy shorts thing. For me it's a bazar feeling and it did not help I suspect that I'm doing it on the proto Denali which skis a bit different in the first place while still grabbing sets on the production ski with current double boot set up. Just playing folks. Nothing really more then that. Have made some observations and assertions that seem to fit well with GUT and some other things I have learned along the way from guys a hell of a lot smarter them me. Man did this thread take a bad turn. Sorry about that @Than_Bogan. Tough audience. Or sensitive.. or something... Ignore the man behind the curtain..carry on.

[Horton]

 

[ALPJr]

@Horton yes.

[ozski]

At the end of the day the proof will be in the extra buoys gained or lost by going RTP. Sure you might claim it feels better or worse but how does that translate to your score? I'm skeptical that a kicker is any better than a well setup rear boot and speaking from experience my skiing improved after I modified my rear boot to allow much more freedom / heel lift. Its a factor but I'm yet to be convinced that a toe loop is the reason I'm not getting out the exit gates at my hardest line lengths. I respect the guys for having a crack at it and if they pick up half a pass or better then they have my attention. You never know a well setup double boot might just grab the world record this season, imagine that.

[Drago]

@Than_Bogan : I think your problem with a "rear boot" was not the rear boot. It was the heal lift.

[ALPJr]

All good stuff but visions of Wade Freddy and Regina keep coming to mind as I read this thread

[Chef23]

I do think that it can be difficult to get your feet close enough together with some double boots. When I see double Vapors set up as an example particularly if your foot doesn't jam against the front of the boot you can wind up with more space between your feet than you would have with a RTP or with a Wiley rear. I don't know as much about the Reflex rear or Powershells.

 

I am sure that high end skiers have tuned their double boot setups to get the right spacing but I think with us mortals sometimes we take what we get originally and don't always mess with it that much.

[Deanoski]

A willey 3/4 rear boot will give the in-between feel of a rear boot and a toe loop.

 

I was using a animal rear went to a toe loop for 1 week never could match my scores so I when back the animal and could not ski worth beans so I tried the willey 3/4 boot and bam buoy count back and lots of rear foot freedom

[Razorskier1]

Lots of ways to skin the cat folks. Lots of pros on both RTP and double-boots running great passes. One isn't superior to the other by any definition I could imagine. Why do I ski RTP? A) because I always have and, (B) because at my current age and given the arthritis in my lower spine, it's a lot easier to get out of the water!

 

As for heel lift, that is an interesting question. Lucky Lowe told me back in 2000 that even an RTP skier should have their heel down on the ski. For the most part, I try to do that but, again, given limits in ankle mobility, sometimes when I move forward in the pre-turn, my heel will come up. However, for folks with better ankle mobility, they can make the same move with flat feet. In short, there are lots of variables for why some people prefer one vs. the other. Heck, my RTPs rip out about once a month all summer, which can seriously impact your success in the course! If I could overcome my own physical limitations, I might like a double boot.

 

In the meantime, I did order an aluminum frame Radar Hybrid RTP as a backup in case I blow out my RTP at an inconvenient time. It will be interesting to see how that works. One thing I do know about my rear foot is that it tends to cant on me (one of the reasons the RTP keeps ripping). The Hybrid RTP would control that unless I canted the binding, which I don't plan to do on my initial testing (probably this fall). I hope it feels and works great, because it sure looks more durable to me than a rubber strip attached to a plate.

[lcgordon]

I only wanted to switch to a rtp because a nice one is what like 50 bucks. You could keep it for ever. Just bought a tfactor rear boot and it was 225. Thats alot of money savings.

[Drago]

@Razorskier1 "cant" or pivot? Look at Detrick's rtp (2nd place Open M Western Regionals pics).

[Razorskier1]

@Drago -- I can't tell what I'm looking for. His appears mounted straight in the picture under the Raptor ski thread.

[Wish]

@Razorskier1 to cant is to elevate one side of foot over the other like shims under one side of plate. To pivot is to have your foot go where it goes naturally in toe loop..not straight inline with front foot but at a slight pivot. Gonna guess you will pivot the new back Radar RTP as it will feel better with a slight pivot like Brian Ds as that is more natural and why your foot goes there.

[Razorskier1]

@Wish -- thanks. That was what I meant. My foot doesn't stay straight in the RTP.

[UWSkier]

Anyone know how this happened or if RTP was in any way related? Hope Nate's back in time for Malibu in a few weeks! Love watching him ski and would be a bummer if he can't swing it.

 

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o605/uwskier/ski/SC%202016-07-29%20at%2012.51.47%20PM_zpszvhvyfqi.png

[TallSkinnyGuy]

Must be nice to be as young as Nate and be able to heal quickly. If I had an injury that put me in a boot like that I would surely be out for the whole season.

[mmosley899]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I moved from double hard shell boots after 20 years to something more forgiving on my aging back. After trying a few different setups I have been on a half hard shell rear, but was still using the full liner. The liner seemed to be dragging in the water on my off side, so I knew it needed to be cut down. After talking with @adamhcaldwell the other day about the rear boot setup, I went ahead and cut down the liner and then the shell also. That really freed up the movement of my back foot. It removed some of the inside pressure on my rear foot in the offside turn. That means I was probably relying too much on my back foot to roll and pressure the back of the ski on my off side turn. The difference was immediately noticeable, and as I get a few more sets on the setup I should be better able to move my COM forward where it should be. Lower seems to be better...

 

[Gloersen]

ditched the RTP after 2 weeks; wasn't going to lead to more buoys in my case.

 

Back to R-style cut down similar to @mmosley899 but notched in the back; much more compliant sidewall and no heel restriction if it has to lift.

 

Main benefit for me is that the back foot stays in the same position through the pass.

 

 

 

 

 

[mmosley899]

@Gloersen the deep cut in the back probably lowered the lateral stiffness also, allowing a little more free movement.