All New 2017 Radar SENATE

[Stickman]

Hmmm. Nope, still not seeing 17' Senate prices on Performance website. Somebody post a link if you find prices posted anywhere. Thanks.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

They apparently took the 2017 Senates off since yesterday when I saw them on Perfski.com. If I remember correctly, the Alloy was priced about $100 higher, the Graphite about $50 higher and the Lithium about $200 lower. I'm sure the various places selling Senates will have them listed within the next few weeks or so.

 

Regardless, I would sure like to get a better explanation of who the target markets are for each version and what the differences actually are (e.g. differences in speed, stability, etc.).

[wtrskior]

target markets? lol you're overthinking this...

 

It's based on price point... Most skiers aren't going to notice much difference, but the pvc core carbon skis are lighter and more agile, as I mentioned above and @Fam-man for some reason disagreed with me...

 

The lighium will help some for sure, especially if you are working on max speed and possibly trying to shorten the line, or plan to soon. The Lithium won't hinder any skiers ability as long as you are a senate skier and not a "katana skier".

 

If you can afford it buy the Lithium, if you want to save some bucks, don't.

[Fam-man]

@wtrskior sorry, just a touchscreen fat finger. Has been removed.

[Stickman]

TSG, thanks for the clarification. I've been checking their site daily, and they must have snuck that by me the one day I did not check.

 

Regarding Radar's target for each version, my opionion is that they are offering product for as wide of skier profiles as possible. If you are someone who is willing to trade foregiveness for quicker response, than Lithium is for you. On the other hand, if you are battling constantly changing variables such as water conditions (and your inconsistent technique like me), than the more foregiving alloy may be a better solution. My $.02

 

I would love to be able to demo Lithium vs Graphite on back-to-back sets. Hopefully, someone else will over the next 6 months, and post their thoughts.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

@Stickman I'm with you in that I would really like to compare the different constructions in back-to-back sets. Since Radar makes the same shape with different constructions it is a perfect opportunity to get a clear understanding of the differences. Hopefully someone with access to them can do a comparison and share the results with us.

[paco]

Ditto @TallSkinnyGuy !

 

[GoBlueSki]

Alloy version says "precision fixed fin system".

No 'fin whispering' then?

[UWSkier]

If it's the same as the fixed fin on the older Senates and Lyrics, it's more like Fin Shouting. You can make coarse adjustments only.

[gmut]

The 2016 lithium senate had a fully adjustable fin and fin block similar to the 2016 vapor.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

Good catch @GoBlueSki -- looks like that is also a change for 2017. My 2015 Alloy Senate has the fully adjustable fin, but I'm at a level where I don't see using anything but "stock" position. So, it would actually be kind of a relief for me to not worry about my fin not being in the "right" place.

 

Looks like the Graphite and Lithium versions get the fully adjustable fin and only the Alloy has the fixed fin in 2017.

[GoBlueSki]

Thanks everyone. Looks similar to what's on the Katana. As I'm just learning the course I won't mess much with the fin for a while, though I do have a copy of the "bible" on hand. Have plenty of other fundamentals to work on first.

Wondering if the fin block could be exchanged for an adjustable one in the future? 'Industry professionals' have any insights? Might make a difference in purchase decision of Graphite over Alloy.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

I'm going to try this post again since Eddie was unable to respond earlier:

 

@eddie_roberts_jr I think there is a group of us here that would really appreciate a better understanding of the target markets for each of the versions of the Senate. Do you consider skier ability for each construction (even if that is not the key consideration)? If so, do you have a target skill level for each construction? For example,

1) Alloy Senate for just learning the course up through 15 off at 34 mph

2) Graphite Senate for 15 off through 28 off at 34 mph

3) Lithium Senate for 28 off and shorter at 34 mph

 

Obviously there is tremendous overlap between each segment (i.e. someone just learning the course would likely do just fine on a Lithium Senate). But, do you have target skill levels for each construction or is price point the only factor for your target markets?

[eddie_roberts_jr]

The target markets for the 3 constructions of the 2017 Senates definitely are different. The Alloy would be for the less advanced skier who mostly skis open water conditions. That skier will appreciate the dampening effect of the wood stringers in the core to keep the tip from chattering and will not be as inclined to be a "Fin Whisperer." Although Alloy has an all carbon construction, the damper ride due to the hybrid core will favor the skier who needs a touch more time at the turn finish to get their act together. The Graphite comes standard with an adjustable fin and will have quicker reaction/acceleration response than the Alloy. The Lithium with its PVC core and all carbon layup will obviously be the lightest and fastest of the 3 and will favor the more advanced skiers who are already running the course yet still like to get out and rip on the open water from time to time as well. All 3 skis are very stable, turn smooth and easy and feel remarkably similar on the water.

[Sethro]

A few years ago I skied back to back passes with 2008 Radar Senates. The regular Senate and the Senate-C. There was a big difference and I can attest to basically what @eddie_roberts_jr just said. Most notable was the pullout and glide for the gate on the first pass with the Senate-C. I had been on the regular Senate for a few weeks, and I completely overshot my pullout and missed the gates as there was that much less effort using the Senate-C. It was much faster and quicker to respond. I kept the Senate-C

[Icebergman]

I am new to Ball of Spray but coming from experience and riding one of our demo Alloy Senates up here in Canada I can say that they ski extremely well. I ski at 58 kmh and mounting my bindings on a senate and skiing at 55 I was able to run almost the same score I did on my Vapor that same day. Senates Rip!!!

[TallSkinnyGuy]

@eddie_roberts_jr I was looking through the 2017 Radar brochure last night. Firstly, the recommended "terrain" for the Graphite and Alloy Senates is half "crossover" and half "open water" -- I assume this is an error and was supposed to be half "crossover" and half "course?"

 

Regardless, my main question is regarding the differences between the Vapor and Senate. You have stated earlier in this thread and it is reinforced in the brochure that the only difference between the two is the width. That is, the Lithium Senate is exactly the same as the Lithium Vapor except that the Senate version is 0.2" wider. The brochure states that this tiny bit of extra width creates "a more stable, more forgiving, easy riding platform." I'm not a physicist or whatever it takes to understand these things at an academic level, but I am curious to better understand how that 0.2" of width can make the ski more stable and forgiving than the Vapor without any other modifications?

 

Also, can you compare the 2017 Alloy Senate performance with the 2014-16 Alloy Senate, particularly in terms of speed? Since the new Alloy Senate has 100% carbon fiber does that make it faster than the previous Alloy Senate or does the new Alloy core dampen the reaction time enough that it counteracts the 100% carbon fiber and keeps the speed of the two versions about the same?

[oldjeep]

Here is an unusual question for this group. Of the various new senate versions, which is least likely to be damaged by having it out in the sun? We rack our skis and boards in the tower racks and they are typically there for 6 hours on a lake day. Haven't had any ill effects with my current Senate (2012 regular not C)

[disland]

@oldjeep skies are expensive, a ski sock like the ones Eagle sells are cheap. The biggest concern is your binders they are going to get ruined by the sun before the ski will, and when if fails while your riding it it wont be pretty

[oldjeep]

@disland maybe I've been lucky but the bindings are fine and have been on 2 different skis in the last 4 years. Now I don't use anything super fancy, so maybe the more standard stuff is tougher. Curious how a black ski sock is going to protect the ski, is the problem that they are UV unstable or that they are getting hot?

[eddie_roberts_jr]

@TallSkinnyGuy The extra .020" width in the 2017 Senates obviously gives them more surface area over the Vapor. More surface area will allow a ski to ride a little higher on the water than a ski with the same shape with less surface area. A ski that is riding higher on the water will have less drag and be less critical to what is happening directly under the skiers feet. The 2017 Senates have a softer flex than a Vapor which also enhances the turn initiation with less input from the skier. 2017 Senate Alloy Is a faster shape because it finishes the turn quicker and gets between the skier and the boat and creates more, sustainable angle. The 2017 Senate Alloy is 100% carbon so naturally it will be a bit faster than previous Alloys which were half carbon and half glass. The wood stringers will dampen the ride in choppy water as they are located in the forward third of the ski but they will not hinder acceleration. Hope this answers your questions.

[A_B]

Buy a Lithium Senate and modify it to look like a Vapor. Cut some some slots in the tip area with your skill saw and cover with packaging tape.

[nzguy]

@eddie_roberts_jr or other Radar guys. I've got a 2017 67" graphite senate coming my way in a couple of days. I was just wanting to find out the stock settings for the ski. Particularly the boot measurement. Cant seem to find anything on the web site.

I'm using the OB4 system, they use slots rather than holes, so I'm guessing screw goes in the middle of the slot, but it would be good to confirm.

I'm only a 32-34mph skier so I probably wont play with fin settings, but would be good to check that they are at stock to begin with.

Looking forward to trying it out over the Annex I'm currently running.

Thanks.

 

[eddie_roberts_jr]

@nzguy We set the fin on a 2017 67" Senate at 2.460, 6.960 and .760 DFT. I've been running my Vapor Boots at 30 7/8" from the tail after moving my Sequence plate one hole forward. Not sure it needed to go forward but it sure felt good so I left it there. You're gonna like your new ski!

[nzguy]

Thanks @eddie_roberts_jr . Really looking forward to getting it wet this weekend.

[Sivota]

@eddie_roberts_jr I suspect you have been asked the following question before about the sequence plate. If so, I apologise for not finding the answer. I anticipate skiing on a 2017 Lithium Senate next season. Currently I use a 2016 Vapor binding and a HRT, both of which have helped me improve despite my age [very late 50s, and to a very modest standard, 2@55]. Should I use a sequence plate or stay with the individual plates I have? Thank you in advance.

 

[eddie_roberts_jr]

@Sivota I prefer the Sequence plate myself because I move my bindings around from ski to ski a good bit and it's very convenient for that. That being said, I doubt you would feel much, if any, difference in performance. One advantage the Sequence plate has though is the ability to move the plate fore and aft in smaller increments. There is a second set of holes by the front of the back boot that represents binding movements of .125" as opposed to .250" with the middle set of holes.

[mmosley899]

@nzguy the slots allow infinite adjustment, so measure from the tail of the ski to the back of the boot as recommended by Radar. Enjoy your summer, getting cold up here!

[nzguy]

@mmosley899 Thanks Mike. I do like that there's slots. Like you say infinitely adjustable.

Do you normally measure from the very bottom of the boot where it meets the base?

A little off topic but I'm loving your binding. After moving from Wileys I feel like Ive got much better edge control. But the safety was what sold it for me. I've taken a few otf where the binding released without even feeling it! Its given me a lot of confidence. Thanks for producing a great product!

 

[mmosley899]

@nzguy I measure to the point on the boot closest to the back of the ski. Hard shell boots have different shapes, so some additional slight adjustment may be needed to get exactly where it works best for you.

[Sivota]

@eddie_roberts_jr thank you very much for taking the time to reply, and your clear advice. Much appreciated.