Drivers ability

[klindy]

@ToddL I also feel that a simple poll would be extremely biased. And generally it would be a popularity contest with the winner the person who travels around more and is known better.

 

Anyway, the data we have. It's just a matter of capturing it and weighting it more accurately.

 

[ToddL]

While I agree with @bishop8950 that end course video is the most telling evidence of skill, in the absence of that data point, other measures must be considered. I disagree that all polls are just popularity contests. Poor polls are. It really depends upon what questions are asked and how.

 

I do recognize that not all skiers know or remember their drivers' names. So, familiarity is a key factor of influence in such a poll. If I were to travel to another site, I may not know that awesome driver who pulled my group. If I were asked to rate that driver, I'd say 10 out of 10, but how would I indicate this if I can't identify the driver? So, there's an issue. If I could say, "That driver who pulled Rd 2 of Men 4 at the such-and-such tournament on this date", then I have identified enough info to go look him or her up. But who's got time for that?!?

 

So, end course video is what we have...

 

Maybe a future version of speed control could have a USB port where a thumb drive could be installed for each tournament. The speed control would capture GPS coordinates of passes and thus driver path data. The data could collected on the thumb drive then included into WSTIM data set as part of the final tournament report.

 

Imagine if the future speed control had wifi router built in and an app where the driver could connect his or her phone to it and see data on their path. Who knows what other features could be dreamed up with an app-based speed control interface.

[bishop8950]

@ToddL I have seen such systems that measure boat path deviation live and give immediate driver feedback. I don't know how it works or if/when we will see it but Will Bush was testing it a year ago. No doubt the tech is available and just a matter of when our small sport can pull something effective and practical together.

[MISkier]

I would be surprised if GPS accuracy is available to effectively measure the boat path within tight enough tolerances to really map it with enough precision to reflect true path.

 

It seems to me that the consumer version of GPS has enough standard variation in location (not speed calculations) that the mapped path could easily be many inches, if not feet, from the true path.

 

Surveying equipment gets very close, but it is not in a moving boat.

[bishop8950]

It could be based on a lateral accelerometer or it could be linked to end course live deviation similar to splash eye.

[LeonL]

@MISkier I feel the same concerning accuracy. If we're dealing with inches, and we are, to determine a good boat path I don't think the GPS we currently have available is up to that.

[klindy]

Splash eye simply measures the deviation from the end course video. No real magic here except counting pixels.

 

For GPS to be accurate enough it would likely need some type of land station which would help keep a solid reference point local to the lake.

 

That said, there are a lot of drones in the market today that hold rock solid despite wind conditions etc. That leads me to believe that the technology is doable today in a really inexpensive format.

[ToddL]

Let's avoid the overly expensive or overly technical. I was thinking that USB thumb drives and phone apps are pretty average "Joe" tech that all can understand. However, if the data isn't there or isn't meaningfully accurate, then there's no need to capture it...

[Than_Bogan]

@kindly Hey now -- no disparaging of counting pixels! I make a living by cleverly counting pixels :).

 

www.cognex.com

[Splasheye]

@klindy I like to think it's a LITTLE bit magic that for the price of a couple of slalom skis you can have a system that automatically plots the deviation of the boat accurate to 1/2 an inch at a distance of 1500' and then sends the plot of the pass to your mobile phone AND allows you to gather the data by skier/driver/boat/tournament.....but then I'm biased :smile:

www.splasheye.com

 

 

 

[BrennanKMN]

I don't think it would be too hard to make an iPhone/Android app that would record the position relative to a starting point. A phone has all the tech built in. GPS, accelerometer and easy to use.

 

I in vision a line that wiggles with the boat through the course. Straight line = good driving, line with 6 bows that very in magnitude at each ball means you deviated from center. You leave your phone centered in the boat and tell it what center is and it will record each time you deviate from center.

 

Maybe this can be my winter project...

Won't be pretty but it can be instant feedback after each pass. Eventually you can add references to see how far you deviated.

[klindy]

@BrennanKMN I have an app called "sensor data" which does a great job with positioning data. It'll produce a massive amount of data, the question is what to do with it.

 

@Splasheye you are obviously correct I'm sure there is some magic in the way you're counting pixels. Certainly didn't mean to talk negatively about your product at all. Clearly Splash Eye is awesome and a leader for the necessary tools we use. Love the software and all you guys do! That said it is a bit more work/money otherwise everyone that uses Splash Eye for slalom would be using the target and software.

 

My point previously however was to simply use what EVERYONE already has in place regardless of class of tournament. We create the data and collect it then do absolutely nothing with it. Why not use it?

[Splasheye]

Thanks @klindy. But I must take issue with saying that sensor data or any other GPS app does a great job with positional data. If I capture data with my phone sitting on my desk the GPS coordinates will frequently change by 0.00001 degrees. May not sound like much but from what I can work out that is about 4' of absolute position from a stationary object (when we are looking for <1")

@BrennanKMN There are some great articles out there about how hard it is to compensate for accelerometer errors to generate an accurate velocity or location https://goo.gl/Mp7uRc

These are people who sell 'low cost' accelerometers and their summary is "In general, accelerometer-based position and velocity estimates from low-cost sensors (hundreds of US dollars instead of tens of thousands) are very poor and are simply unusable."

[lpskier]

I think it is unreasonable to pull into a new site and expect to be able to drive. Each site has its group of drivers that (mostly) will give a reliable if not great pull and keep the boat out of the weeds. The chief driver isn't likely going to gamble on an unknown and untested driver when he has his or her reliable regulars to pick from.

 

In my experience coming up through the ranks, you need to alert people that you are trying to become a good driver and ask for an opportunity. You may have to actually make an effort and get in the car and drive to some farther away sites. You may have to drive practice a couple (or more) times before you get that shot. Any wheel time you get is wheel time another, probably better, driver that has paid his or her dues is not getting. It also would help to go ski with some guys who are good tournament drivers. Get in the boat with them, ask them to teach you and watch them drive. Pull them. Do this more than once or twice. Then ask them to refer you to some chief drivers and tournament organizers with their endorsement. I think that if you are competent, and they think you are working hard to be a good driver, you will get more opportunities.

 

All that said, while I favor training and supporting new drivers and officials, and do that when I am in a chief's position and able to do so, as a general rule as an athlete I think the consistently worst drivers are the ones that "need" to drive one or two events to keep a rating. You can drive your buddies in practice perfectly at home and not be a good tournament driver in a strange boat at a strange site with strange skiers, under pressure to deliver a quality pull every pass for an hour or more..

 

Finally, there are a handful of really good drivers. As an athlete, part of my analysis in picking tournaments is who the drivers will be. Part of my job as an organizer is to get those same drivers, or others like them, to come to my tournaments. Good drivers with a reputation give skiers confidence and, painting with a broad brush and all other things being equal, confidence produces better scores.

 

FYI, I don't consider myself to be a great driver but I think I am competent with a lot to learn. Sometimes the worst drivers are the ones that think they are really good.

[Roger]

@Splasheye - Will we eventually see Autotracking information record with the video?

[Stevie Boy]

@Ipskier fair comment, we have had a world ranking drivers at our site, one dinged the prop, followed by going over the line, admitted the manouvre required at one end of the lake is tricky if you are not used to it.

The driver just turned up for the event, he did not practice the lake before hand, so your comment about using drivers that are used to the layout of the lake and areas to avoid is a very valid point.

Some drivers get so used to driving in a particular way, little things can throw them, for example, at one end of the lake we pull out to the left to drop and the other end to the right, surprisingly some guest drivers struggle with it.

[Roger]

@Stevie Boy - Good thoughts there. When I went up to Jacksonville this spring to ski and drive, I had never driven the new lake there before. So I jumped in the boat with Peter Gloersen (@Gloersen) so he could run me through the boat pattern. I wouldn't even want to drive a new site without a local driver running me through the pattern. Even as wide open as our main lake is at Okeeheelee, some drivers we've had in the past have not turned far enough away from the starting dock to allow a safety margin of space for the skier as they pull out to shorten the line. Not such a big deal for most divisions, but kids in particular might not notice the dock until too late and we just can't risk that.

[Splasheye]

@Roger Yes the new release in the Spring will overlay the tracking information on the recorded video for each pass

 

Donal

www.splasheye.com

 

[Roger]

@Splasheye - Awesome! Thanks for that :smile:

[klindy]

@Splasheye Donal, that's awesome! Thanks!

[Gloersen]

Concur with availability of hard data to corroborate driver ability. Maybe in the not too distant future ECV can be archived on line (at least for a season at a time).

 

Of course “C’s” should remain less complex, but if the tech can be made readily available; every tournament should be used as a means to educate and improve our driving skills.

 

It's always favorably impressive to witness top-class drivers take the time to review their ECV on site at the completion of the event.

 

Correlating performance results with drivers and making such readily available would be good as well. I assume the data is buried in the WSTIMS database. @Roger – (looking forward to you at the helm again soon, haven’t seen 11.25 since) that slice of spreadsheet posted was compiled (edited by me) from the online scorebook and the knowledge that you pulled that T&B segment, but not a direct online file that could be found. However, it would be good to have that kind of info tabulated and pdf’d from the database.

 

[brody]

@Roger, to answer you he said he absolutely refuses to move the wheel until he feels the skier. He went on to say something about that if you move before then if your out if time with the skier you screw him/her. He did drive at least 1 pro tour stop and also the over 35 worlds this year. I can't comment on if he is wrong or right since I am not a tournament driver, just repeating what he said. The skiers all seemed to be happy with his driving