How about a rules change for speed for older skiers?

[LeonL]

This is purely selfish on my part, but most people don't spend much time thinking about a situation unless they're personally impacted. I would like to see a rule change that allows M7 and up and W7 and up to ski at one speed increment above the division max and get credit for that speed increase. It seems especially significant with respect to the fact that when moving from M6 to M7 your speed drops to 32 and you ski at that speed ONLY in that one division. Then M8 you drop again. I'm aware that you can ski at an increased speed now, but you only get credit for the buoy count of the lower speed. Does this change seem reasonable? When are rules change requests accepted?

[dbutcher]

That's all being discussed in Rules right now (I think). The better solution is to change the rule so that a M6 skier who wants to stay at 34 be allowed to stay in M6 as long as he wants. If one wants a 34 mph score, stay in an age division that skis 34. Don't force any skier to speed back up to remain competitive.

[MISkier]

Would they do the same for 36 mph? Would someone stay in B3, M1 or M2 to ski that speed?

[dbutcher]

Anything is possible. I'm pretty sure B2/G2 can already ski in B3/G3.

[wtrskior]

In Canadian rules you can ski in a lower division if you choose, but not a higher age. So you would ski against M6 and at M6 rules. I don't think many do it but the rule was likely created for this reason; where you skied 36 or 34 and didnt want to drop the speed.

 

I actually think we need to look at a special 34mph division for juniors and young adults who don't ski at 36. I waited 20 years (until M3) to ski my first sanctioned tournament because I never skied 36.

[MISkier]

@dbutcher, I am talking about someone older than B3, M1, and M2 still desiring to ski at, and be scored commensurate with, 36 mph.

[dbutcher]

Interesting. Are Canadian rules available on line anywhere?

[wtrskior]

https://goo.gl/RVSxJa

[dbutcher]

@MISkier I don't know, but I don't see why that could not be done. For example, if M2 is now 25 yrs-34 yrs inclusive, change M2 to 25 yrs and older. Anyone over 25 no matter how old could ski in M2, and M2 ski at 36.

[ALPJr]

How about 32mph for mens 5 or mens 6?

[klindy]

IWWF divisions are open ended. So the grouping is 13 &a under, 17 & under, etc. For the older divisions you have 35+, 45+, etc. That seems to make the most sense to deal with the options. At least you are competing with a group all under the same condition.

 

Skiing faster in slalom and getting credit for the buoys make sense but of you apply the same issue to jump it's more challenging to solve the problem.

[Zman]

For the M7 consideration, I would rather be allowed to ski 34 mph if you choose and get 6 more buoys than others skiing 32 mph at same line length. But, still compete in your true age bracket. You simply get more buoys with more speed, or shorter rope. You choose.

[LeonL]

Don't you think it's kinda odd that Men ski at 32 in only one age division? Not so for women.

[Gloersen]

It would be good if the RC would consider implementing the 2016 Options for Juniors rule [10.06 (d-g)], therefore using the Advancement and Scoring matrix [10.06(g)], page 49, for ALL skier divisions in class “C” tournaments for 2017.

 

Something similar may have been suggested in another thread.

 

Some may argue against it citing an unfair impact on Level 8 status, Nationals eligibility, etc. Considering the low level of participation in Nats; it’s moot.

 

[dbutcher]

No set of rules will make everyone happy. The current AWSA age/speed rules work pretty darn well. I have yet to see a change proposal that is universally better.

[rayn]

Any rule change that rewards more buoys for a higher speed is a defacto increase to max speed for that age group. I think the proposed alternative for those who want to keep skiing the higher speeds is to stay in the previous age division.

[lpskier]

@dbutcher @wtrskior Keep in mind that Canadians also play with an extra man and three downs.

[wtrskior]

@lpskier don't forget that 15 off is longline in Canada! With 6 months of winter who needs an extra 15 feet of rope to work with

[MrJones]

This is nothing new. I skied 36 mph (except at regionals and nats) until I was 42. Can't guess how many times I brought up, here and on other boards, the fact that in Canada you can simply stay in M2 forever if you want.

 

Finally got tired of fighting the system and went women's speed full time. Still not over it...

[bigtex2011]

My vote would be to leave it the same.. I think changing it would effect to few of people.

 

 

[John Brooks]

@Gloersen last year when the rule change was being reviewed for the kids, also in the proposal was for all divisions. The RC decided to implement for kids, apparently not enough support for all divisions.

[LeonL]

@bigtex2011 "effect (sic) to (sic) few of (sic) people". It would affect all people in those division's mentioned. If that's too few, then those divisions don't matter in your eyes, I guess.

Once you reach 65, there's a big difference in skiing against those your age and wanting to go 2 mph faster, (and getting credit) as opposed to staying in the younger division.

[Than_Bogan]

Triple sic! Isn't that used to make Margheritas?

 

I see no reason why we shouldn't follow Canada's example here. No harm to letting people stay if they want.

[MISkier]

I don't know what the difference is for everybody else, but my PB score at 36 mph is 2 buoys higher than my PB at 34 mph, as each were set or tied in the last two years. Last year, my 34 mph tournament best was 1/2 buoy better than my 36 mph tournament best.

 

So, if there is some concern that allowing older skiers to ski faster and receive that credit will be some sort of huge advantage over skiers that do not want to opt up in speed, I'm not seeing it. I think that is why the scoring is 6 buoys apart for consecutive speed increments at the same rope length - because it is essentially equivalent. I do know that I enjoy the ride more at the higher speed.

[Phil]

I would like to see the whole age cat thing revisited, the majority of skiers now appear to a younger fitter group of people and i believe that we should drop to 32 mph at say 68 ? and that the 35 yr age group stay at 36 mph until 40 yrs old moving all the catorgories i believe would help

 

[BraceMaker]

Wasn't there an INT low speed series for a bit?

[bigtex2011]

@LeonL .. no i think it would only effect a few people in mens 7 and 8. I think the rest are fairly stoked to go slower otherwise we probably would have already heard about this. Just my 2 cents

[klindy]

Ironically I was chairman of the (then) Skiers Rating Committre when the age groups were expanded to where they are today. At the time we had a lot of folks complaining about going to fast and how bodies breakdown fast, etc and argued for 5 year age groups instead of 10 (M2/M3). Now the cry is for the opposite.

 

Personally it makes some sense to allow anyone older than a certain age to ski in a "younger" division. And allow anyone younger than a certain age to ski in an older division. I'll guess the age break is somewhere close to 25 or 30. Same for men and women.

[Jody_Seal]

Today's Senior skier and athletes of our sport in general are in better condition then they were even as little as 10 years ago. Medicine, fitness knowledge and information is abundant and with the internet the older skier is physically stronger with this information available. Equipment ever changing as the bar gets higher. Speed control dictates that the skier is lighter and needs to have less impact on the boat.

The current crop of men 5 and 6 are the group that 20/30 years ago were the break out group as real short line skiing started coming of age. Technique was being really defined as they learned to ski these shorter line lengths.

Keith suggests the change while on ratings. In that Scenario the squeaky wheel got the grease as the leadership at the time was older skiers that where not in the condition older skiers are today nor did they ski with the equipment we ski with today as did they not utilize the big engine boats and speed control of today.

A few years ago a group of ex open skiers tried to implement a 35 mph class that fell on def ears.

As membership continues to dwindle maybe the def ears need hearing aids and start listening to these requests and concepts rather then NO!

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@klindy if my understanding of the rules is correct, can't a skier, who is say 68yo, go to a class L tournament and ski in the over 45 group since L is run under iwsf rules? So for that small subset of tournaments, including most regionals and nationals, doesn't the ability to not slow down already exist?

 

I know most L tournaments use usaws age divisions, but shouldn't they really use iwsf age divisions?

 

Perhaps the easiest solution is to scream into the deaf ears that this is one iwsf rule that should be put in the usaws rulebook?

[LeonL]

Perhaps my concern, or call it confusion, is why only one age division for men (M7) is at 32. Why have a skier ski at a given speed for only 5 years? I think it would be good for that speed be for M7 and M8. Women slow from 34 to 32 in W5 and carry that speed through W6 before slowing to 30.

[eleeski]

I would rather shorten at a lower speed. Health reasons. That should carry a full 6 buoy penalty. Skier's option. All buoy scoring. Easy. Might allow the speeds to be optionally raised in the age divisions in question.

 

For skiers opting to stay in their division, an overspeed should carry a 50% advantage (only 3 buoys instead of the full 6)(+3 buoys instead of the current zero). There is reward for skiing the (harder) faster speed but still incentive to ski at the age appropriate speed. Relevant for overall skiers whose strength is slalom.

 

If it's not a rule already then it should be, allow a skier to ski the appropriate IWSF age division, if it's younger, to get the desired speed.

 

Eric

[GK]

Make 36 mph the max speed for ALL divisions, men and women, and then let the skier decide what they want their max speed to be and when they will shorten the rope. 6 buoy difference for every 3KPH speed change. Would be very simple to implement.

[Gloersen]

Thanks @John Brooks for pointing that out. Maybe the RC should re-examine

 

If the Advancement and Scoring matrix (used for Juniors in “C”/”F”) were used for all divisions it would provide what some (many?) are searching. Anyone could choose to ski 36 (including women) in any division or at lower speeds if so desired.

 

Just have to keep moving either to the Right and/or Down in the matrix. Would there really be a downside if it piques additional interest in tournament skiing?

 

[escmanaze]

@Gloersen that is the greatest table ever. I love it. I don't ski tournaments. I can honestly say that if they were scored this way, I would start.

[klindy]

@escmanaze that is how it's scored at class C tournaments for B/G 1-3

[sailworks]

Interesting discussion. As an orthopedic surgeon, just a comment:

Alternative rule changers should be thoughtful/careful about rule changes that encourage older skiers to ski at higher speeds (than current rules provide) for the sake of gaining buoy count in competition. The energy dissipated in a fall correlates with the square of the velocity, and older bods have weaker bones, ligaments, and muscles. I suspect that respect for this truism is part of the reason for the current alignment of speed with divisional age? But then again - I suppose a related question would be: is shorter line at slower speed just as stressful in a crash as longer line at higher speed? Just thinking safety here:)

[Jody_Seal]

@sailworks Thank you for the professional opinion and comment. This discussion though is not to encourage yet it is to offer a choice. My generation of slalom skier (men 5/6) are a large percentage of the competitive sport. For many it is and will be a challenge to slow down in speed. Also these rules are antiquated in terms of modern equipment and technique and physical fitness of the older athlete. If a skier is more comfortable and feels safer skiing at 55K rather then 52K why are they penalized? Why not accommodate rather then mandate? I have a ski buddy here in PC that is also a orthopedic surgeon in his early 70's. I tried to get him to slow down to 52K in practice...he did try it but said he would accept a less buoy count as going faster was easier on him...

[ALPJr]

@Jody_Seal and @sailworks probably good to offer the tourney skier the flexibility to go both ways with speed and compensate in scoring for skiing slower than the max speed for the division. Faster than max speed should not increase score. Just saying

[dbutcher]

I am 72 years old. I have aged through the speed changes all the way down to 30.4 mph with the current rules. When I went from 34 to 32, I didn't like it at first. It took me half a year to adjust. When I finally did, I had no desire to go back to 34. Then when I turned 70, I dropped to 30mph. That was a quicker and easier adjustment (for me). After my first tournament season at 30, I tried to go back up to 32 for winter practice. I didn't like 32 at all and presently have no desire to ski faster than 30. I write all this only to suggest that skiers may not give the new slower speed a chance. You have to try it more than once. In fact you have to try it long enough to learn your new gate shot pullout, new timing, hanging on to the handle longer, etc. etc. With slower speed came better consistency, especially at my difficult shorter line lengths. The falls/crashes are easier on the body at 30 than any faster speed, even at my shortest line. And I don't fall as much. It is a personal thing perhaps, but old people should ski slow. Allowing scoring for faster than maximum speed is tantamount to increasing the maximum for the division because one would have to ski faster than maximum to be competitive. If others want to ski faster than max, good for them; but I object to being penalized scoring wise for only skiing the maximum speed.

[eleeski]

@sailworks accurately noted (along with the rules committee) the real physical deterioration that comes with age. One factor in the large size of the M5 and M6 divisions is the years of enforced 34 mph speed reducing the frequency and severity of injuries. A few exceptional skiers skied faster (Open is open to anyone who can qualify) but the skills of most skiers dramatically improved as they happily enjoyed the slower speed.

 

Allowing the full 6 buoy credit for an overspeed is a de facto increase of the top speed. Everyone will get an advantage by skiing 36 - regardless of how frail the skeleton may be. This is likely to cause more injuries that will force many aging skiers to quit the sport. I don't think that is a good idea.

 

People do age at different rates. Some skiers will be tough enough to handle more energetic falls and hits for a couple years after a mandated slowdown. They should be allowed to ski at their preferred speed. And since it is more difficult and risky, they should see some reward for an overspeed. But there must be incentives to ski at the "safer" speed.

 

Giving 3 buoys credit for an overspeed rewards the extra difficulty without giving too much incentive to ski "dangerously ".

 

And anyone needing to ski slower should be allowed to (with the full 6 buoy reduction in score).

 

Eric

[LeonL]

@dbutcher how many buoys did you pick up when you dropped to 30? You really didn't pick up buoys , but you know what I mean.

[dbutcher]

@LeonL My tournament PB at 32mph was mid -38. At 30mph it is 4.5 at -38. So not many. However, in practice I have run -38 several times at 30. At 32 I don't remember ever having run -38. At 30 I run -35 most of the time. At 32 I missed -35 more than I ran it. I lost buoys score wise, but I'm having more fun. It's much more fun to run -35 and deep -38 (at 30mph) than it is to run -35 sometimes at 32mph. My consistency at my "wall" pass is much better at 30 mph.

[escmanaze]

@klindy Thanks much for the info, I didn't know that. Unfortunately, for me, however, I'm a 35 year old with a body that has the wear and tear of a 55 year old, so if I could just get to 30 mph and start shortening the rope instead of getting clear up to 34, I would be much more excited about that. Maybe class C tournaments could start applying the rules mentioned by @eleeski where you get a 3 buoy bonus for going faster than max, but a full 6 buoy deduction for going slower than max. Seems like a pretty decent idea to still include people who want to go slower and faster, while rewarding and penalizing in a way that still makes the current max turn out to be the ideal sweet spot for those who really want to maximize results.

 

[GK]

We need to simplify our rules and scoring, not make them more difficult to understand. The chart above makes perfect sense and should be implemented for all divisions. I disagree that running 36 mph is going to be an advantage at every age division and if someone is winning at 36 mph vs others at slower speeds, then it's probably because they're the better skier.