How wide to pull out for longer line lengths?

[Brodie_James]

Hi Folks,

 

I am working on my consistency of running passes at 52 kph (32 mph) and believe that most of my issues are with the gate. I believe that I do not cut as hard to buoy 1 as I do for 3 and 5 and effectively ski a straights path to 1. Too much focus on the gate. When I do complete a pass at -15@52 it all seems so effortless from the beginning. I would like a perspective on how far to pull out for -15@52 and how late to leave the turn in. I use the boat gates (55') and gates as my timing reference. My current goal is the run -15@49 on pass one, run -15@52 on pass two and then whatever I get at -15@55 every time I go out.

 

Youtube short-line videos has the skier along side the tow boat which is probably not needed for my current speed an line length. I am a little short sighted so lining up buoys further down the course is not an option.

 

Thanks in advance for your wisdom and assistance.

[Stejcraftben]

when you pull out and look down the course at ball 2,4 and 6 I usually go a little bit past that. I usually start my pull out when the windscreen of the boat hits the pre gates but timing will vary for everyone. As for when to start cutting in I usually go by feel, I don't have a certain marker that I go off.

[wtrskior]

Width is the wrong term becaise width is controlled by how long the rope is and you never want slack in the rope if you can help it. You won't be able to get as "high" up on the boat at longline as 41off.

 

But you want the same intensity for every pass so that when the line does shorten you are getting higher on the boat.

 

A good trick to learning where you need to be us to put tape on the gunnels but you'll need to know where to be or have a knowledgeable helper...

 

Pull out earlier so you aren't late at the gate and make mistakes trying to catch up. Once you know the intensity you need to get that line to 1 ball, you can adjust when you begin your pull out.

 

You need to establish a repeatable routine. When you pull out, intensity, when you turn in. Then adjust it all later to get that perfect inside RH gate ball cut to 1.

 

Hope this helps

[RazorRoss3]

You won't be high on the boat at 15 but you should be able to look down the 2-4-6 buoy line and see yourself outside of it when you are gliding for the gate. For the pull in, whenever you think it's time to turn in, delay an extra second and then go.

[fu_man]

Rini says 5-7 ft outside of the buoy line at that line length.

[Ali]

Jodi Fisher says 2 boat widths at that line length. Really helped my wife's gates when she started getting that wide at 28mph/49kmh

[A_B]

I haven't run 15 off in a long time but at 36 mph, I would guess I was close to 10' outside the skier buoy line. Way past even with it. That gave me lots of time to roll in slowly and get in proper position. I know I am still outside the line at 28 and 32 off. Maybe even or slightly outside at 35. I never pay attention to buoy line at 38, I focus solely on the gate. Maybe that is my problem.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I have never liked referencing the 246 buoy line for a pullout. IMO that is the wrong point of focus. Sure high end skiers use that, but they can generate tons of angle and speed from a narrower starting point.

 

For where you are, I recommend getting as wide as you possibly can. It is much easier to learn to generate angle and speed from a wide starting point.

 

There is no such thing as being too wide on your gate.

[gregy]

At 15off and 22off I try to get at least even with the back of the boat. But more importantly is timing. You don't want to get way up on the boat too early then fall back. I try to pull out and roughly match the speed of the boat then turn in.

[ScottScott]

If you feel like you are taking a straight line to ball 1 you may be starting your turn in too early, then trying to get through the gate. I am just getting through the course at 15off 28mph and have been told a couple times not to worry about getting through the gates too much. Going too early and getting through the gates will put you in a bad line to the 1st ball. Better to pass in front of the gate.

[Brodie_James]

The response to my question have all included width is a very good thing. Thanks for all the responses.

[Waternut]

I know the standard mentality on this forum and amongst high end skiers is get as wide as you possibly can. Maybe that works for most people but it's a sure fire way for me to NOT run the pass. I can get deep into 35off on a good day and still can't "get wide" even at 22 or 28off. I guess if you have a slow roll in and waste 5-10 feet, that works but I simply cannot do what I consider a normal roll in and maintain angle through the wakes if I'm that wide. I'm completely out of steam and nearly flat at the wakes and getting pulled downcourse with way too much speed at 1 ball. Definitely way more speed than I can bleed off.

 

Angle and intensity is what I focus on for both pull out and rolling in towards the gate. In fact, if I'm consistently struggling at 28 or 32off, my fix is usually to readjust my gates and go narrower.

[Texas6]

@Waternut, I respectfully disagree with the premise of going narrower as a means to improve those passes. I understand that perhaps that works for you, but I don't believe that is a good practice for folks working up to 28 and beyond. If you are going flat by the first wake, its because you either bit off too much too early as you turned in for the gates, OR perhaps you are waiting for the line to get tight before rolling in toward the gates from your pullout glide. Once the line gets tight in your glide, it prevents angle and creates speed early likely making you flat by the first wake. Practice pulling out high on the boat at every line length, learn how to generate angle by getting your weight on your front foot, initiating the turn toward the gates before the rope gets tight (while you are still somewhat free from the pull of the boat), and progressively building angle between your glide and the wakes. This will help reduce the early speed, and you'll be rewarded with a much easier pass at every length

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Waternut that's a common misconception and problem when skiers first start to get wide. What happens is that you start wide, but turn in hard fast, then end up letting up through the wakes because you either have more load than you can handle or more speed than you are use to. What you need to do is learn to start wide, gradually roll the ski on edge - not drift back - then make a progressively harder lean so that your max load is right behind the boat. Learn to do that and you will progress much faster.

[Waternut]

@texas6 and @Bruce_Butterfield I totally agree with both of you but after 2-3 years of inconsistency trying every conceivable method of getting wide and rolling in that people tell me is the "correct way", I still can't make it work right. So I figured my options were to either try something else, quit skiing, or keep failing miserably doing the same thing expecting different results. I chose to try something else and it's been working for the last couple years and my consistency has gone up massively...

 

The whole premise of my post was that sometimes when all else fails and you're getting frustrated with people telling you to do the same thing that isn't working, it may be time try something new. Not saying it's right and not saying everyone else is wrong but what I CAN do and what people want me to do are often not the same thing.

[Deep11]

Weird that this has been our discussion (locally) over the last week. Our conclusions (for what it's worth):

1. You can't get too high on the boat

2. BUT at long lines you don't actually NEED to get that high on the boat

3. As the line shortens - the right process achieves the greater height necessary

3. The really important bit is getting "free" of the boat- from an early acceleration - at every line length (whole different discussion that probably deserves its own thread)

4. You have to time it to be able to turn in on the front of the ski and "meet" the boat about 1-2m before the white water with max speed and angle - "balanced" on the ski.

[Brodie_James]

Thanks all.

 

I skied today (summer in AUS) and whilst I did not break any PBs I did feel that cutting out to 1-2 meters outside the 2 4 6 buoy line did help ensure that I created more angle and space at buoy 1. I had plenty of time after the gates and was able to turn well before the buoy. Thanks for the all the assistance and discussion.

 

I did learn one other interesting point from this discussion, glide means traveling at the boat speed and not having fallen back heavily onto the rope. That is also a very useful tip and means I can cut out a little later than I have been.

 

Can someone kindly explain leverage, a term often used in discussions on this forum that I do not understand in the context of body position?

[Texas6]

Leverage (definition) - influence or power used to achieve a desired result; the use of force by means of a lever or an object used in the manner of a lever.

 

In this case your body is the lever and the desired result is to use its influence/power to create space between the skier and the next buoy. Your body position when leveraged appropriately against the power and speed of the boat, is what determines what degree of success you will have against the intended result.

 

A good leveraged position (also referenced as "the stack") aligns the body optimally to "leverage" the power and speed from the boat to create the necessary space required to make the next turn and repeat. I believe @Than_Bogan is the resident leverage PHd who wrote a thesis on the subject of "developing the stack" that you may find useful if you want to read further