GUT vs WCS

[Gloersen]

does (did) Suyderhoud lecture GUT?

[Horton]

@AdamCord learned everything he knows from that video

[Mateo_Vargas]

I heard him say gut.

[sunvalleylaw]

I find it pretty interesting. I like the side by side of old skool vs. west coast. I spent a lot of time watching the old Advance Slalom Clinic tape with Mike a long time ago. Interesting to see his take on updated technique.

[ALPJr]

West Coast Slalom is good!

[mwetskier]

if you watch that video closely you will see that mike suyderhoud clearly had gut. that was years ahead of the denali boys.

[AdamCord]

If you've read any of the GUT articles or been to a Summit you'd know that we do almost no talking about the turn. The principles of GUT are founded on geometry first and foremost. See my GIF on the right side of BOS to understand what I'm talking about. This has nothing to do with style or how you look on the water. There are lots of different ways to ski, and two different skiers trying to achieve GUT can look completely different in the turns. @adamhcaldwell and I, for instance, look very different in the turns, but very similar from whitewash to whitewash. We're both focused on creating speed and swinging around the pylon as fast as we can. You can get away with a lot of mistakes in the turn if you are miles early.

 

I agree with a lot of what Mike was coaching with WCS, especially about moving your COM to lead the ski, but I think some of it is not really all that important or would be difficult to do. For example you'd have to be a contortionist to turn the off side the way he is advocating, and even if you could turn this way, you end up in a compromised position when the load comes on. You can absolutely "close off" your offside turn and still stay ahead of the ski in an efficient position. The trick is finding what works best for you so that you can stay in control, keep your balance, and be consistent.

 

A good example of this would be Lucky Lowe. If you watch old videos of him skiing and listen to him coach, you may say he's an "old school" skier, but he did a lot of GUT very well, and he understands the geometry of the skier swinging around the pylon. If it weren't for his injuries I'm sure he'd still be giving the Big Dawg guys a run for their money.

[Wish]

I've been to 2 Denali summits, have sent both Adams countless videos of me and have yet to hear them tell me to do this or that in the turn. The cool part about GUT is intertwining the how with the why (GUT). It's nice to be able to take any advice from any coach and be a be able to place it in their models and decide for myself if it is good advice or counter productive (counter rotate). There is for sure elements of GUT everywhere, both past and present. The fact that it's being picked up on this thread is testament to that. Adams have actually studied old footage of skiers to understand technique and even equipment then vs now and how it relates to skiing efficiently. Cord and I had a conversation just the other day on a "how" aspect that simplified things. What I've come to learn is there are a ton of peripherals with regards to technique that become overwhelming. Arm up, arm down, elbow in, elbow out, look here, look there, shoulders open..nope closed on and on. This site is testament to just how much info and detail can be bantered about. Just watching the vid became overwhelming with all the little things a skier would have to think about in a split second when put into practice. Their's is centered on much simpler principals of technique. I've watched almost dangerous looking wake crossing by skiers turn into something that looks like a breeze and easy to drive for inside of 24 hours melding the how with the why. By the way, I try to emulate Cords turn more the Caldwels (he's a freak of nature with athletic talent). Cords turn seems more doable (no offense). Turns out I can't even do that. My turn is just different. But everything between the turns has become very similar. It may seem complicated on the surface but it actually simplifies a great number of things.

[Adam Caldwell]

WCS is a more of an education in a method of a technique. GUT is philosophy, founded in geometry/physics based on position/space/time.

 

Any skier can try to execute a long string of convoluted movements, but that doesn't mean its going to work. It only works when the execution of those movements falls into rhythm with MANY other moving elements in the system.

 

Conceptual understanding of what/when/where/why those movements need to come into play in order to be effective is what GUT is intended to teach.

 

Its like the Matrix. Once you've seen and experienced it, there is no going back.

[sunvalleylaw]

Being an alpine ski/coach instructor, there is an analogy I can make that I think fits. As snow skis have changed shape, movement patterns have refined and changed, so as to take better advantage of the equipment. Those changes can be looked at from a big picture view, and almost a philosophy, and can also be broken down in to specifics, down to what is a certain body part doing in a certain part of the turn. (we use the word "turn", and a lot depends on the radius (size) and intent of the turn. Is it a fall line braking turn in the moguls, or is it a larger, super g race turn intended to conserve and even generate speed, using the energy of the ski? The second seems more applicable to waterskiing.

 

In clinics, we can get really bogged down in technical discussion of specific moves of specific body parts. Partly, as @AdamCord has indicated, that different skiers move differently. And view things/think about things differently. So this can lead to a bunch of blah, blah, blah or arguments over a particular piece. Kinda tail wagging the dog. But sometimes those details can be important. Mostly, top skiers have common movement patterns to build, support, and maintain efficiency, leverage and resistance to pressure, and movement of the center of mass into the direction of the next turn, so as to stay ahead of the energy and resistance and use it, rather than fight it or have to recover from it. Essentially, basic athletic stance, ball of feet as base of support, using appropriate flexion in the ankles and not too much in the back/waist, appropriate counter depending on the turn, etc.

 

Additionally, to tell a student too much about a bunch of body parts and moves causes the student to freeze up. So, I like to play with some corrections, without too much talk, help the student feel it, and relate it to the overall picture, without getting too, too bogged down in details. One primary focus per run, and perhaps a secondary, at most. And maybe not even a secondary. And limit the points per session as well.

 

To me, this relates to the discussion of specifics vs. big picture approach. That was my point in posting this.

 

Now, less on topic, WRT to snow skiing, there can be certain technical analogies to be made specifically between snow skiing and waterskiing, and some commonality. But it is a little different too. So one has to be careful trying to be too literal with comparisons. If it is useful for the student to explore a correction by referencing prior ski experience on the snow, or water, then ok. But, it is not the same, at least for me.

[Horton]

I find additional counter rotation at offside makes it harder to not close out at finish.

 

I have great respect for Mike's record but I'm not sure the ideas from that video have stood the test of time.

[mwetskier]

@AdamCord - hopefully your get that when i said suyderhoud had gut i was joking about his front porch not claiming he invented the grand unified theory of slalom.

[jimbrake]

@horton - I'm glad you used the word "respect" in relation to Mike. He is one of the greats in our sport and had a huge influence on many, many skiers through his decades of coaching. Regardless of whether you (the everyone "you", not you personally) agree with his skiing theories and coaching approach, he is due a ton of respect. He was coaching what was termed "West Coast" (not sure if that moniker came from him or others - Marcus?) at a time when there was not a lot of innovation going on in slalom coaching. An early innovator always gets a lot of resistance and flack. I for one think West Coast is actually a lot like GUT. It was just expressed with different words and it is related to body positions in large part and not the overall physics, but he was headed in the right direction for sure. Whether or not you agree with his approach in a dated video, I sure wish there was more respectful tone towards one of our sport's greats.

[Horton]

@jimbrake Mike is one of the greatest champions in the history of our sport. There's absolutely no question about that.

 

In terms of the video it's hard for me to stay quiet when one of my goals of this website is to disseminate good information. I just can't recommend anybody study that footage and see it as a guide to short line slalom.

[sunvalleylaw]

I want to make it clear I respect and honor Mike's efforts. As I said before, his teaching was big for me way back when. I also enjoyed watching ski shows back when we used to rent houseboats at Shasta. Huge contribution, and has my sincere respect and gratitude.

[wtrskior]

I got to ski with Mike when the video had launched and I was just getting into course skiing. I had been watching the video, but videos are difficult to put into pracice. I need a hands on approach.

 

He helped me a lot in terms of leading with the COM and I picked up a number of buoys after skiing with him. He didn't get into the weeds in person like the video, very good coach. Was really great to meet and ski with one of the greats. super nice guy

[Than_Bogan]

@adamhcaldwell And so far I've never found myself saying "I wish I'd taken the BLUE pill..."

[jetpilotg4]

So how does one go from old school to WCS? I find it inherently challenging to make anything but the slightest changes in my skiing, maybe its the old school processer firmly imdedded

[jimbrake]

@jetpilotg4 - don't turn, slide. But seriously, just skip WCS and go to GUT.

[Adam Caldwell]

My recommendation is not to kill yourself to try to look new or old school or a pro skier. Be a student to the sport, do your due diligence off the water to learn what's really going on and what you ultimate objectives are. It makes skiing more enjoyable, safer and your body will thank you. Ski how you need to ski for yourself, and aim to do things that will allow you to accomplish your objectives on the water, not so much buoy count.

[ALPJr]

Skied with the champ at Shasta a couple times in the mid 90's. Studied that video for a couple years when it can out on the 2000's. Excellent coach, genuine, funny and a great man. Steered me to the Berkeley and Marin clubs. And told a few good stories about competing. I'm a big fan of west coast. Changed my skiing dramatically.

[ALPJr]

Have started to read the GUT theory this winter. Great stuff as well.

[So_I_Ski]

In the summer I had read the first two sections on GUT. Yesterday i went looking for the rest but when I visited the Denali website, they only had the first two sections posted with a notice that GUT 300 was "coming soon" to a theatre near you. Where can I read the entire theory or is everyone waiting for the grand unveiling of "GUT 300"?

[Gar]

Horton i can't seem to consistently counter rotate on my offside but when I do the finish and hookup is sweet. So your comment confuses me.

[Horton]

@Gar counter rotation is one of those things that is often misunderstood and generally overapplied.

 

What i am in suggesting in my earlier post is that as your hands are further apart and your shoulders are more twisted away it is more tempting to bring your upper body around quickly - bring back your free hand early and quickly. The result of this action is often the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve with additional counter. It is not ideal to turn your upper body straight across course when leaving the ball but when you have a lot of counter that is often the result. When you watch a Pro level skier it may be that they get their hands way apart at apex and then leave the ball without closing out their shoulders but that is because they Pro level skiers.

 

Additionally - I see the misapplication of counter rotation much more often than not. I see things like people thinking the are countering by taking their outside shoulder and pulling it back. This generally results in more weight on their back foot.

 

I think most elite coaches and pro skiers would more or less agree that counter is something that originats with your pelvis at the center line & is not an action that happens when you get to the ball line.

 

( this is a quickly written Post in a grocery store parking lot. If you'd like to go deeper into this it might be best if we start another thread)

 

[So_I_Ski]

I beg to differ with most of Horton's analysis. First of all to suggest that countering leads to your hands being further apart and combining that with more twisted shoulders makes it more "tempting" to bring your upper body around quickly, is simply conjecture. Furthermore, it overlooks what Mike was explaining in the video above which is that as the ski turns, the skier need only focus on sliding across with the upper body to place the torso in a better position to accelerate which is what the GUT approach emphasizes.

 

Then Horton suggests that when you see a pro level skier do that, it might be ok but not for us mere mortals. Personally, I think we should be trying to emulate them wherever possible as opposed to putting them on pedastals so high that we forget that they have to wipe their asses just like the rest of us when they take a crap.

 

Lastly, as Mike also explains, part of the counter move is to reach with the handle. If you do that not only will you NOT put more weight on the back foot, on the contrary you will put more weight on the front foot. If you want to see a great demonstration of this, watch Freddie Winter's offside turn. The best video is on youtube in a tournament with a bunch of the best skiers. Type his name followed by "the water ski broadcasting company".

 

And yes, his counter move is clearly happening at the ball line as he approaches the ball.

[Horton]

@solski i never mentioned Mike. I said "counter rotation is one of those things that is often misunderstood and generally overapplied"

 

My aditional comments reflect some of results of the these missundstands. Some will listen & some will not.

[slow]

Countering helps me get more ski in the water and into a great pulling position without getting pulled over the front. Terry Winter analysis helps me the most

[So_I_Ski]

Horton, I know that you didn't mention Mike. I wasn't implying that you did. I was simply referencing the video that was posted because I think it's excellent and it actually addresses the points you made. He also says that the free arm should stay close to the body. As the chest opens and the torso twists moderately the free arm and hand does not fly away from the body. If it does, then I agree with your statement that the tendency might be to over rotate as the arm swings back.

[AdamCord]

@solski to answer your question about GUT articles, Caldwell and I both have full time jobs while doing Denali on the side. Those articles take a LOT of time so while we have more in the works, we are slow to get them done. More is coming, but I can't make any promises about when.

 

Counter Rotation is one of the most misunderstood parts of water skiing, and I think this thread illustrates that very well. If you've read any of the GUT articles, you know that we like to back up any claims we make by explaining the physics behind them. Because of that, it would take me a lot of typing to try and clear up all the misunderstandings about Counter Rotation(CR). This is one of the topics we plan to cover, but for now let me try and hit the highlights:

 

The Reach-

Before the turn, CR can be useful as part of the reach. If you've tried to run the course without letting go of the handle before, you can appreciate how important the reach is. The purpose of the reach is to let the boat get further away from our bodies while letting the ski continue on a wide trajectory before carving back to center. The reason most good skiers have long arms is because the more you can reach, the further you can let the boat get away from you (down course) before moving to center, and the better chance you will have of keeping a tight line. If you can't reach very far, the ski will stop going out and will run parallel with the boat, and you will still be traveling close to the same down course speed as the boat when it's time to turn. This will result in skiing into loose line, and the problem gets worse as the rope shortens because we're higher on the boat. Reaching gives us a chance to scrub some of that speed while the boat powers away and give us a tight line to work with.

With that basic explanation of the reach, what does that have to do with CR? Stand up on flat ground with your chest facing ahead of you. Now reach forward like you would with the handle with your left hand, but without rotating your body at all. See how far you can reach. Then rotate you hips and shoulders clockwise, and see how much further you can reach. CR let's you extent your reach a LOT, which as was explained above, is a really good thing.

You can play with this and see that at some point the rotation only extends your reach so far. If you try to rotate even further, pulling your right arm/shoulder back excessively, it is really tough to come back to the handle smoothly, as @Horton mentioned above. The turn happens quickly, and if your off hand is really far from the handle you can have a hard time getting back to the handle smoothly. Use the CR to extend your reach, but don't go further than that.

 

The Pull-

There are several ways that counter rotation can either help or hurt in the pull. In general, you should strive to keep your body close to square with the ski. When the load comes on, there will be hundreds of pounds transferred down through your feet. You would't try and squat with your body twisted.

Because of that, you will naturally be more open on your ONSIDE pull, because we have one foot in front of the other. It's ok to be more open going this way because we are in position to handle the load. It's also pretty natural to keep your COM forward on your onside pull when you are a bit more open IF you are paying attention and that is your goal. Lots of people CR and drop to the tail, which defeats the purpose.

The offside turn is where I see people get into trouble trying to stay too open. Trying to stay too open on your offside IS like squatting with your body twisted. There is a very common cause/effect with skiers who try to stay too open on their offside pull. They always get pulled to the tail of the ski coming into the wakes, and they always get separated from the handle very early coming off the 2nd wake. Once you notice this you can see it again and again with skiers who try to stay open through their offside pull. Go watch any top level skier. As the rope gets short, they will have their hips and shoulders square to the ski through the wakes on their offside pull. It's the best way to create leverage and a mechanical advantage over the handle so that when the rope load goes to 600+lbs it doesn't get ripped off their bodies.

 

The Turn -

I put the turn last because it's the LEAST important part of this, even though that's what everyone focuses on. We know from above that CR can be useful in the reach, and that it can have a place in the pull. What we need from the turn is to give us a smooth transition from reach to pull.

Some people really like to CR because it helps them keep their balance. That's ok. Some people do very little CR and they have very consistent turns. Also ok. Some pros will finish their offside turn with more CR, but then close off quickly as the load comes on. There are many ways to ski.

The goal is to make an efficient turn, which means keeping our COM forward, and a seamless hookup with the handle, which means understanding your timing with the boat. If you like to CR a lot and it lets you do that, great. If you don't like a lot, that's ok too.

 

The important thing is to do what works best for you so that you can reach effectively and pull effectively while not falling to the tail of the ski or putting yourself into a compromised position. That's why with GUT we focus on timing/geometry with the boat, and the physics of the pull/swing. Once you understand those, you can pretty quickly figure out for yourself how much CR you need when and where.

[Gloersen]

@AdamCord - looking forward to the unabridged version! :)

[Gar]

Now I get it! Great explanation !

[So_I_Ski]

@AdamCord, thank you for responding to my query about the rest of the GUT approach. I too, look forward to the unabridged version. Regarding what you wrote above, on the Reach, I think you are spot on in your analysis. While I believe in the counter and found that it had a significant effect on my skiing, I had never considered the effect it has on extending the reach. So I stood as you suggested and reached with and without countering and the difference in the amount of reach is significant. Great example, great explanation. I also agree with most, just not all of your section on the Pull. But I will leave that alone.

 

With regard to the counter and it's relation to the turn though, I think that something is being overlooked by skiers that believe it is either not related or would have little benefit. If you compare waterskiing to snow skiing, you will find that correlation. A snow skier knows that the only way to turn effectively is with the lower body. Although it is counter intuitive, even in snow skiing, if you want to turn to the left, the torso stays down the fall line while the hips twist beneath the torso. And if you want to turn even more agressively, the feet, ankles and knees all press into the hill to roll the ski on edge as much as possible.

 

Applied to waterskiing, when you open the chest or twist slightly away from your desired direction of travel, the result is that you are telling your body that the only way to make the turn from that position is to twist the lower body and edge the ski just like a snow skier as opposed to simply falling with your entire body staying straight as in the "old style" waterskiing. Edge to turn, don't fall to turn.

 

Equally as important is that the counter combined with the reach you described when it is in an upward motion, automatically levels the shoulders entering the apex which prevents the upper body from falling toward the wake, further enhancing the movement of the lower body. The hips will instinctively drop to edge the ski even further as the skier resists to maintain his postition and keep the torso upright. The end result is those terrific pics of guys like Nate Smith or Marcus Brown, virtually sitting on water at the completion of the turn with the ski dramatcially rolled on edge. Although I do not have a clue regarding the bio mechanics and why turning your torso one direction, enhances the ability for the lower body to turn a ski in the opposite direction, I know it works and the guys who know this best are also great snow skiers like Marcus or Jamie Beauschesne. I may not have described all of this as well as I might have and if there is a snow skier out there who can do a better job please chime in.

[Drago]

@soIski in a nutshell: a bit of counter rotation prevents the ski from loading in a rotational fashion. On a waterski = wheelie. On snow, the tail tries to pass the tip .

A Very small amount, and I'm talking about hips(left leading very slightly going right to left. Also allows the hip to get closer to the ground = more edge angle .

When this happens has changed dramatically over the past 10 yrs in both sports .

I personally do not promote counter rotation. I promote being square and perpendicular to the force. On snow especially, that is a moving target/ less predictable. Most err on the side of caution. The ones that win do less unnecessary stuff (trends)(CP,Nate,Hischer,Ligety,...)

[So_I_Ski]

@Drago, I've carefully read your post repeatedly and I am having trouble following your line of thought so can you please clarify. In your first two sentences am I to understand that even a "bit of counter rotation" .... = wheelie? And in the following section it sounds like you are suggesting a very small amount is desirable? Or am I misunderstanding that?

 

With regard to being "square and perpindicular to the force, I agree completely with @AdamCord, that in the pull phase, staying countered or too open to the boat is a weak or compromised position. For me, countering is about the preturn and turn and only that.

 

As for most of the top pros like CP that I have carefully watched videos of repeatedly (because I spend a stupid amount of time doing that one thing), at the point at which their reach is at it's maximum, virtually every one of them has the away or trailing shoulder behind the leading or reaching shoulder as opposed to fully perpindicular to the wakes. This is most evident in slow motion videos so please reference Regina Jacquess or Terry Winter to confirm this. And if you can find a video of any current pro skier that does not do this, please refer me to that video.

[mwetskier]

@soIski -in snow skiing the upper body is used to help the lower body turn by giving the lower body something to ' block ' against which is why snow skiers talk about upper body lower body ' separation '. in essence the lower body can be driven into the turn because the upper body is maintaining its position facing down hill.

 

in my opinion the difference in water skiing is that the design of the ski combined with edging is what drives it around the turn and counter rotation simply allows this to happen quicker by reducing the amount of body mass the ski has to ' drag ' around the corner. i realize i'm not verbalizing that very well but no matter what else happens the more counter rotation you use to turn the ski the more your upper body will need to catch up and then rotate past the lower body for the next turn.

 

if you watch the top skiers in slow motion they may use counter rotation to a greater or lesser extent but then pretty much all of them get their hips very square to the ski by the time the pull really comes on. in other words what ever amount of counter rotation they might have used in the turn they don't hold that counter rotation for very long.

[Drago]

rotational loading = wheelie

Shoulder is behind relative to what?

@solski whatever. Totally unnecessary movement.

Hop under a 600 pound squat bar, face the mirror so you can watch, better yet, start the video. Turn you feet sideways 90 degrees, and go for it.

 

 

[So_I_Ski]

@mwetskier thank you for your explanation of what happens on a snow ski and your comparison between the two. I thought you verbalized it very well and I am in complete agreement with every word you wrote.

 

@Drago, I though I had explained it pretty well by saying the outside shoulder relative to the inside shoulder when the reach is fully extended. At that point you should not be able to draw a straight line from the centre line to the skier and have it go thru both shoulders. The outside shoulder will be slightly behind or in some cases more so than the inside shoulder depending on how much the given pro has countered and whether it is his onside (usually more) or his offside (usually less). Regarding hopping under a squat bar, if you read my prior post again, you will find that I believe that remaining countered as the load comes on is NOT a good idea. To repeat my belief, countering is only benefecial during the phase when the skier is essentially free from the pull of the boat. That is a relatively short duration starting with the reach and ending just before the load comes on in the pull phase.

[jimbrake]

@Drago - sadly not Ligety right now. Add to your list of the countered, edge-angled - Pinturault and every damn Norwegian who looks like they are doing the least, but are among the fastest. Oh, and Shiffrin. Yes, I have a crush on Shiffrin.

 

There is a lot of subtle leeway in when and how much to apply counter-rotation in the water ski slalom course and in the ski race GS course. For those that are experimenting with it (and that is a good idea), but not sure how much to do it, do it a lot, then do it less, then do it some amount in between. I'll give you the "key" to counter-rotation, though, to shorten your learning process - the key is however much countered position you take into the turn, try to maintain that same amount while your ski (or skis) turn beneath you. It/they turn, you don't. Offside, once you are back on the handle (and hopefully that's pretty far back into the course, approaching the white water), you can begin to square up with your ski and be "less level" in the shoulders. You have to do that anyway to be dynamic and trade lead shoulders through and beyond the edge change.

[So_I_Ski]

@jimbrake - well said, and I will remember that "key" if I should happen to be discussing it with others.