Tournament skiers- we aren't all pros

[skierjp]

All Nautique Promo Boats are required to have Bimini tops.

[lpskier]

I am a dedicated tournament skier. I like going to tournaments. So what?

 

I love to play tennis and ride bikes. I have never played USTA tennis nor have I entered a bike race. There are, to my knowledge, no tournaments for reading books, but I am pretty prolific at it.

 

I went to law school and made a career in litigation. Going to court is a legal tournament with a lot on the line. I bet the vast majority attorneys hate court. We call them "transactional attorneys," "trusts and estates lawyers," etc. Legal tournaments aren't for everyone.

 

Bottom line: Tournaments are important to my skiing but I certainly understand that tournaments are insignificant and irrelevant to other folks. It has nothing to do with the tournaments themselves and has everything to do how the sport is approached and enjoyed by the individual. The friend I skied with today LOVES to ski, but he would no sooner spend a full day at a tournament than spend a full day at the dentist (sorry @a_neff). He wants to have his ski fun and then get on with his day.

 

Personally, I'm not convinced that getting rid of the ranking list or moving away from age based completion is going to make tournament skiing more appealing to non tournament skiers. If the "tournament scene" doesn't draw you in, neither will the format.

 

 

 

 

[lpskier]

@Horton I'm with you. Practice scores don't count. But the majority of the skiers in my community don't see it that way. Who's to say who's right?

[Chef23]

I wouldn't say practice scores don't count but they certainly are different than tournament scores. I would say practice scores are a sign of potential and that tournament scores really show where you are at.

 

When I played a lot of golf I felt the same about medal play tournament golf vs your regular saturday morning game. Two completely different examples of the same sport. One shows potential and the other showed what you are really capable of on that day.

[MattP]

As a former competitive golfer I agree with @Chef23. Practice scores are what keep us going back to tournaments. Knowing your possible potential is really what we are trying to achieve.

[ski603]

I see both sides of the argument here. I grew up going to tournaments and loved every second of it. I always wanted to get better because I was skiing against all of my friends which created an awesome environment of friendly competition and we all progressed quickly. Tournament skiing led me to skiing in college where I made life long friends and got to travel all over. Lately I have not skied many tournaments as I just find more enjoyment going out and skiing for fun not chasing a score or the ranking list. I think saying practice scores don't count is a little on the harsh side, but there is certainly a difference between practice and tournament scores.

[LeonL]

A friend of mine has a saying. "You just gotta go out there and put it on the line." Tournament scores tend to show that you have the mental toughness as well as the skill, and able to overcome any nerves.

[RazorRoss3]

Not to mention time, a tournament, especially one you need to travel for can easily be your entire weekend. That's plenty fun, don't get me wrong, but if you were expecting to get much of anything else done that weekend you're likely out of luck.

[John Brooks]

@RazorRoss3 that's what Winter is for, to get things done.

 

[RazorRoss3]

Winter is certainly useful as a time to catch up on all the to-do items that you put off all summer, although in Texas I can still be skiing in January so not as useful as it was in Minnesota.

[RazorRoss3]

Posted in the wrong discussion

[skibug]

Practice counts to me...and I don't give a flip who does or doesn't count it. I don't ski tournaments and probably never will. Just not my thing to spend a whole day or whole weekend to get 2 or 3 sets. Practice scores mean something to me, otherwise I wouldn't be participating in this sport. And, without people like me (and there are a lot of us) the sport would be hurting even more than it is today.

[MillerTime38]

@skibug your statement is partially true, but just think how much better the sport would be if you (and other non-tournament skiers) skied a couple tournaments a year. Increased membership #s, more sanctioned tournaments to attend (and revenue), more kids getting exposed to tournament skiing (building future), and more skiers qualified for nationals.

[Wish]

@MillerTime38 better for whom? Your list benefits guys like you and me. Pretty sure your list of positives (and they are) means little to nothing to buoy chasers that skip the tournament scene enjoying where they're at. I'm guessing @skibug and others feel none of those things affects them directly or indirectly. So which group do we need more of? I think growing the sport from all sides and angles especially non tournament skiing gets a few more skiers trickling into tournaments. Make the pie bigger rather then push one part of the pie over to another part. Building bridges helps. Think of snow skiing. The non racers keep the sport very much alive and the industry caters to them. It's fun and puts you in beautiful places and you don't have to race if you don't want too. Is the national race scene gonna be that much better for them? Their bridges are local race clubs competing. No need for nationals or rankings or high costs for a single day of racing. We have Class C and R. The only difference the first time tournament skiing would notice is that one is far more expensive per round. Another factor is one and done. Pay your money, miss your first pass or worse gates...done...and feeling waisted time and money. Or stay home and ski till your legs give out, crack open an IPA and watch the sunset from your favorite deck chair. There's gotta be a bridge between those or you gotta have a much bigger pie.

[MillerTime38]

@wish it benefits everyone and most importantly the sport.

 

We all make sacrifices in order to attend tournaments, whether it be time with family, work around house or whatever. But we go because we love the sport. Take this year for example, I am packing up right now to take a 7 1/2 hour drive to Alabama to ski regionals just so I can attend nationals 15 hours away. Do I have a lot of other "better things" to do. Sure but if we all did those "better things" the sport will continue its downward trend

[MillerTime38]

@Mark_Matis if the top 20% qualify for nationals and there are 200 skiers in your division then 40 skiers qualify. If there are 300 skiers in the same division then 60 skiers qualify for nationals....please explain where my math is wrong here.

[Wish]

I guess I'm not seeing how your list benefits anyone or the sport accept tournament skiers. Help me out in understanding. Maybe I'm missing a key point that would be another feather in the cap of getting happy non tournament skiers to sacrifice as you say. To me, if I stopped going to tournaments today, none of those things would affect me in the least. But I seriously could be missing your point(s) or details. Now if you are promoting the social end or the possibility to improve your skiing do to helpful skiers at the tournament, that's a different sell and perhaps a better one. It is the reason I still go. If the population of non tourny skiers increased, how does the sport continue on a down trend? Doesn't it just make a bigger pie with a bigger pool of skiers that may want to try one?

[The_MS]

More skiers means more products being developed. Boats, skis and everything that goes with it. Eventually you get more access to cheaper products and probably more access to sites. You will never convince people to change their ways or their drive to compete but if more people are exposed you will eventually get more tourney skiers.

I am only skiing a couple events this summer and I am missing out on our State tourney today. Regionals are 2 hrs away but I probably wont go due to my knee. I love being around the starting dock and shooting the $%^& with people that I only get to see a few times per year.

Not sure what people into skiing do with their busy lives every weekend that they cant find the time to attend a few events to test themselves out but I would hate to be in their shoes.

[Ralph Lee]

I've went round and round trying to figure out why I don't compete? Every year I tell myself I'm going to start attending. All my reason's/excuses boil down to one thing...

 

I get WAY too much satisfaction from my practice scores. I ski regularly at several different courses in the area, some certified record capable, some not. Some with certified drivers, some not. My buoy count is the exact same regardless of where I ski. I suppose if I only skied one boat, one lake, I might feel the need to prove myself, but at this point I don't have the desire to compete for the primary reason of getting my score on a piece of paper or the internet. I want to go head to head with equal caliber skier and upset them by half a buoy

 

 

[MillerTime38]

@Mark_Matis will they? Sounds like your opinion. I am pretty sure back in EP days there were WAY more than 600 skiers at nationals....

[LeonL]

Back in the EP days there were 120 M3 skiers alone. I have no idea of the total entries, but obviously more than 600.

[Booze]

I don't understand why anyone would invest so much time, effort, etc into becoming a really good skier (I know that's subjective) and NOT be interested in laying it on the line at a tournament. I have some friends that purport to be into slalom and want to be better but totally scoff at the idea of doing a tournament....even if it's at our own site!

I just don't understand.

I've been in love with slalom since I was 12 years old. To me, it wasn't just about running back and forth on a course by myself....it was for the goal of skiing well and hopefully kicking ass in a tournament.

Who cares what somebody does in practice...if that's all they do? Tournament scores is what counts IMO. The time, money. and effort spent in preparing and following through with it is part of the point.

 

[ntx]

@Mark_Matis. The reason more sites are not bidding for nationals is the low number of skiers. Fixed costs for officials and infrastructure is the same for 600 or 1000. I bet san Marcos would love to have 1000 skies in a few weeks. I bet they are doing all they can to reduce fixed cost and increase profits from the event I bet 600 is barely above break even

[skibug]

@MillerTime38 if I did attend tournaments it would be a drop in the bucket versus what I spend annually to support the sport, a new ski pretty much every year to 18 months, the purchase of a year old promo boat every 3 years. Annually, gloves, ropes, handles, vests, for me and the wife, coached sets at multiple venues and multiple coaches, and the wife and I are AWSA members. So, I am pulling my weight without attending tournaments.

@Booze I ski about 300 to 350 sets a year, so I am into it and every year I have become a better skier than the year before. I don't need a tournament to tell me that and I don't feel the need to be on some list to prove it to everyone else. I use to lift heavy in the the gym for personal bests; I didn't need to enter a power lifting competition to keep getting stronger. When I ran my first 35 off I went and got sprinkles on my ice cream; when I run my first 38 off, I plan to do the same. You can't get that at tournaments :)

[ALPJr]

It's the same in golf, tennis, cycling, running, surfing, snow skiing, etc. Many enthuiasts who recreate and train, don't participate in formal competitions, and support the sport nevertheless. It's a vanilla, chocolate, strawberry thing.

[MillerTime38]

@skibug I never said you weren't pulling your weight. All I said is that if people like yourself, and the masses that you mentioned, were to ski a tournament or two a year imagine what that would do for sport.

[LeonL]

I think I can sum this up somewhat. Lots of people like to ski and get better. Lots people like to golf and improve their score. What's different is that some are content to just see their personal results, while others have an inherent competitive nature. They want to go and compete with their peers on a public stage. It's hard to fully define this competitive spirit, but it exists among some and not others. Some excel in that environment while other's nerves or whatever cause them to often fail on the public stage. My personal belief is that the best and most successful athletes (across the sports spectrum) have this built in competitive spirit that drives them. I enjoy the competition. Sometimes I fall into the category I described above. I get nervous. I can't explain why I do sometimes and not other times. Those "other" times I ski well on a high visibility venue, quite comfortably. I'm some where in the middle I suppose. I'm not always "on", but I do compete.

[6balls]

@skibug hear you on both the skiing and the powerlifting (tho I competed there, too). I don't ski very many tourneys and I'm done powerlifting.

 

I will say hitting a PB at a tourney is a bigger feeling than in practice, though, and there will be people willing to buy your sprinkles for you there. For a long time my PB's at tourneys were higher than my practice PB's, and wow the feeling when setting a new one!

 

Having said that, I totally understand your point(s). No right or wrong answers...it seems there are two camps those that do and those that don't and it's not likely that one changes the others mind.

 

Sure as hell hope my leg heals fast enough to hit skiwatch fall double...even if not enough training to ski like myself...skiing it alone would be a victory.

[Wish]

@MillerTime38 I'm trying to imagine. So what would it do for the sport (the whole pie) for the masses that @skibug and others have mentioned...aka non tournament buoy chasers??. You've mentioned really good outcomes and advantages for tournament skiers if they participate and grow the tournament part of the pie, but no mention of how the non tournament skier part of the pie would benefit. They will always be part of the pie to some percentage...currently a high percentage I think.

[MillerTime38]

@Wish there is no personal benefit, the benefit would be for the sport. More participation in tournaments, more tournaments, more exposure, maybe even a pro tour again someday, yada yada yada

[RazorRoss3]

If there is any benefit to the standard skier I think it is meeting more skiers, growing your personal network. When I moved to Austin I skied a tournament every weekend for over 2 months not because I feel a need for tournaments but because it's hard to find a better way to network and meet ski partners.

[Wish]

@MillerTime38 Am asking for rational or detail that would entice folks to attend tournaments if your logic is that the tournament scene is the sport (my interpretation of what you are saying). To me rounding buoys is the sport.....simple. @ALPJr said it best....Many enthusiasts who recreate and train, don't participate in formal competitions, and support the sport nevertheless. @RazorRoss3 gives reasons that focuses on how moving to tournament's feeds both parts of the pie. So if we are gonna encourage participation..a good thing, how do we word it to our buddys, friends, acquaintances who have not tried a tournament but are thinking about it. My list would be:

 

Reasons to ski a tournament if you have not:

Social benefit and networking

Becoming a better skier with access to advice

Seeing and skiing the latest best boats

Feeling the best drivers

Seeing latest gear

Challenging yourself if so inclined

 

 

Reasons not to:

Practice scores do not count

Your not really challenging yourself

It grows the sport

I do not understand why you would not being such a great skier

Your only competitive if it is under rules and judges

Your not to that level yet

Your boat is not ZO so does not count

Your course is not certified so it does not count

Your driver is not certified

 

 

 

 

 

[wart]

"there is no personal benefit" for non-tournament skiers to become tournament skiers.

That, in a nutshell, is the reason things will not change.

 

Let's consider other sports that have greater adult participation in organized competition than water skiing. Softball, hockey, and basketball come to mind. And maybe these sports have more individuals participating in an organized way than non-organized. (Skiing tournaments vs non-tournament for comparison.)

What do these organized activities offer participants that organized water skiing does not?

I'll start the list - these examples are team sports. What else?

 

Here's another list. Golf, running, biking, and tennis.

Same question - what do these organized activities offer participants that organized water skiing does not?

I'll start the list - these examples are individual sports. What else?

 

For me, the reason I no longer ski in tournaments is... give me the sign up list for any tournament and, before the event, I can tell you +/- one or two positions where everyone will finish (not counting falling on the first pass or missing gates). Therefore, I'm with @skibug... I can assess my progress on my own; I don't need a list on the internet for this.

On the other hand, I'll still sign up for team leagues in other sports because at every event the team has a chance. (That is, the outcomes of competition are different for all the different skill levels.)

Oh, and I'll continue to participate in golf events because handicaps give everyone a chance.

 

This is why events like Horton's are important. He is trying to address the personal benefit question. If the rest of the tournament scene really wants more participation; the same needs to happen. And unfortunately, if tournaments do change... I suspect it's going to take a lot more trying, than the tournament regulars want to spend time on, to convince me and maybe @skibug to change our ways.

 

Hmmm, this nutshell is a very hard one to crack.

[Horton]

@wart interesting tournaments do not have to be hard. You just need to be a little creative.

[ScarletArrow]

Here is a discussion I had with another skier at this weekend's Ohio State Championships...

 

If I go play 18 holes golf, I get to play all 18 no matter if I shoot 70 or 120.

 

If I run in a local 5k, I get to run all 3.1 miles no matter if I'm at a 5:30 pace or a 10:00.

 

If I play a tennis match, I get to play a minimum number of sets against someone ranked at my same level.

 

If I go to a ski tournament and fall at 1 ball, I'm done.

 

One of these is not like the other. Now I understand it's the "rules of the game" for skiing, and there's a bit of a breakdown in the apples-to-apples comparison, but it's binary thinking to just make this practice vs. competition - it's also about perceived value.

 

I hosted a cash prize tournament ($450 total) at my lake this year, using handicap scoring (BBT rules), and a "pick your partner" team format. Only 17 skiers showed up and the vast majority were the guys I ski with every week. 2 were from out of state who just happened to be passing through. On the one hand, it was nice because we started at 9 and finished at 4 with a 30 minute break for lunch. It was low-key and fun. On the other hand, it indicates there's not enough perceived value even in an alternative format.

 

My point is that what others have already made, it's hard to beat the value of a day at the lake with my family where I can get unlimited skiing. I'm a competitive guy, I like the tournament scene, my tournament scores generally reflect my practice scores; but I scaled my tournaments back this year and actually skied more (relative to the bad weather this spring in the midwest) than ever.

 

When I jump in the water for practice I know I'm going to get "full value" every time - 6, 8, maybe even 10 passes if I'm feeling good. Time on the water is the most valuable thing to a skier - not a score, not a prize, not rated officials - and a tournament can't give me either the quantity or quality time on the water.

[ski6jones]

Some interesting metrics in this discussion would be;

 

How many set/week do you ski, both practice and tournament if you ski tournaments?

How far away is the nearest tournament to you, whether on not you ski tournaments?

Do you ski tournaments?

Do you have school aged kids?

(more factors exist I'm sure. Name some.)

 

For me i ski about 4 sets/week, if i wasn't getting older each year would be 6-8 sets/week. Access is not a problem for me. I'm 20-30 min from a set most all the time. Kids are grown and live out of town. If i only got to ski on the weekends and needed to balance that with family and tournaments i might ski fewer (or no) tournaments.

 

How much is life circumstance and how much is deficiency of the tournament format?

 

[6balls]

Life circumstance...I skied 'em all the time when I was in college...and the collegiate season was spring and fall in cold conditions in the midwest. The other tourneys during the summer were in nice summer conditions...and I didn't have a family, a mortgage etc. Care free days back then.

[Chef23]

With young kids in the mix I totally get it. I got in to skiing tournaments when my son got interested in them it became something we did together. My daughter never caught the bug like my son did so generally it was my son and I at tournaments and my wife and daughter at the beach. My son and I get bored at the beach so it worked out okay.

[crashman]

fun times these "why don't more people ski tournaments" threads are.

@wish and @ScarletArrow have some good thoughts regarding us -15/-22 guys. In my area there's a lot of us- tearing it up at 32 mph and pulling the kids through the mini-course several times a week.

 

here's my metrics

How many set/week do you ski, both practice and tournament if you ski tournaments? 5-10

How far away is the nearest tournament to you, whether on not you ski tournaments? 1hour

Do you ski tournaments? no

Do you have school aged kids? yes- 3

[Justin_C]

I think my thoughts are similar to @ski6jones. I think if you were to look at both sides of the argument you'd find, AS A RULE (I emphasize this because I know it will not be inclusive and people will disagree), the people most adamant about the tournament scene are those who either live on or near the water with a driver available multiple times a week. If they go to a tournament and miss a day of skiing it's no big deal cause Monday evening they know they'll be right back at it. Those more in favour of no tournaments would be ones like me who honestly don't know when they'll get their next set. Hopefully it will be this week but maybe not till next so if I have a free day, why spend the time and money on the possibility of only getting a pass or two.

 

For example, I skied today with a local skier/coach and got to my personal best (albeit a "practice score"). To be honest, I'd rather spend tomorrow trying to solidify and improve upon my pb but instead I'm going to ski in the only tournament within 4 hours of home where I may only ski 1 pass and be done, maybe not to ski again till next weekend.

 

I think those in the first category consider every day skiing to be "practice" whereas the second category would simply call it skiing

 

Having said all of this I am really looking forward to the tournament because, like many have said, there are a ton of good skiers and even better people who will be there and I enjoy catching up with them. I feel like it makes me a better skier to be able to ski in different atmospheres and under pressure. There's also a different level of accomplishment that I feel when I hit a pb in a tournament and opposed to "practice".

 

Just my thoughts. I know I'm not really committing to one side or the other, just trying to offer more insight on why there seems to be such a difference in opinions! Either way, as long as you're skiing the way you'd like to and are giving back to the sport whenever you can by helping those new to the sport and introducing people to it, we're going to collectively grow the sport. It takes all kinds.

[teammalibu]

I second what my tall skinny friend said!

[LeonL]

@Justin_C , ski one pass? Regionals? Otherwise a one round tourney?

[Justin_C]

@LeonL ok, maybe 2 passes. I got lucky today and got 4 passes between my two rounds